James Maddison

[TRAD-DAD]

8 minutes ago, urban fox said:

The problem is not just the wages these clubs can pay.

 

If you are a Man Utd player there are potentially millions to be earned in product endorsement and image rights etc. from their mainly Asian fan base. Beckham was a fantastic player, a good looking chap and all round nice bloke, but does anyone seriously believe he would have ended up marrying a spice girl and getting world wide recognition and acclaim as a celebrity, and not just for his prowess on the field, if he had come through the ranks at LCFC and spent most of his career here. I am sure that his talent would have been equally recognised but the rest came about because he was part of the global brand that is Man Utd. HM got a taste of what it would be like when he was the darling of the media at the world cup and obviously decided he wanted more of the same.

 

I always thought that Maddison came across as a decent, grounded sort of guy when interviewed on TV but if these rumours regarding wage demands and release clauses around a new contract have any truth in them then my opinion of him will plummet. Smacks of greed and arrogance. If he thinks he will get more than the senior squad players like Vardy/Kasper etc. then he has no understanding of how things work and a VERY over inflated opinion of himself, which will soon see him become disliked by other squad members.

 

The question is do we know that is what he is doing ? Agents are paid to do a players thinking and handsomely too. You let your agent assess the situation and act accordingly it's what you are paying him for. This negotiation in terms of a new contract or pay rise is in the agents hands. It's no different from the old union shop steward negotiating with the bosses on your behalf.

[coolhandfox]

4 minutes ago, 4everfox said:

You do realise that our owner is a multi billionaire right? I'm pretty sure that if he really wanted to he could just go full blown Chelsea 2002 or Man City 2009 without even taking a zero off his bank balance. Not that I want that, I prefer our current method. 

For a start his not a rich as ethier owner of Chelsea and Man City.

 

Since being back in the PL the club has been self funded, I see no indication that the owner, what to throw massive sums of money at the club.

 

And we would have to deal with FFP!

[TRAD-DAD]

1 minute ago, urban fox said:

Yes but FFP rules were brought in to stop just that sort of thing so that uppity little clubs outside of London or the North west can't join the cartel now even if they are totally minted. Our way is the only way now. organically grow, bringing in more sponsorship deals, advertising revenue and TV money from CL etc consistently over a few seasons and then we can start attracting, afford the wages of and retain, the sort of players that we need.

Very true. But at least we can use our wealth by saying , we sell only if we want too not because we need too.

[4everfox]

Just now, coolhandfox said:

For a start his not a rich as ethier owner of Chelsea and Man City.

 

Since being back in the PL the club has been self funded, I see no indication that the owner, what to throw massive sums of money at the club.

 

And we would have to deal with FFP!

When you're a billionaire in a millionaire's playground it doesn't really matter. The owners literally cleared our debts with their own money when they first joined, and Vichai is quoted on record saying something about spending 170 or so million to reach top 6 and I seriously doubt a 100 million training ground and 100 million worth of players over the summer was self funded. My original point was that the money we would make from Champions League means we could afford a few 60-80 grand a week pay rises and a few 180 grand a week players. There will be a loophole somewhere regarding FFP, maybe we could pump a few million into OHL and then loan it off them

[StriderHiryu]

5 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

LCFC will never be a consistent top 4 contender if we sell our best player to a rival top 4 club each summer. It will work for a while but the moment a Grealish doesn’t replace a Maddison or a Caglar a Maguire, we go down the route of Southampton. We have a good model that has helped get us up there but we will need another to stay up there consistently- at some point we’ll need to start behaving and spending like a top four club if we want to be considered a permanent fixture alongside Manchester’s, Liverpool and the 3 London Clubs. We are a way off yet.

How far away does everyone think we are?

Next season could be very interesting for us. Assuming we are in the Champions League we will have a lot of games and I'd expect our league form to suffer. But if somehow we could get to the Champions League 2 years in a row or more (big ask!), then by definition we'd be a top 4 club. Man City and Man United spend vast fortunes, but Liverpool were only able to spend a lot recently due to crazy sales such as Suarez for 75m and Coutinho for 140m. Spurs spent quite a bit (for them) in the summer, but signed no one the year previous to that. Arsenal signed a lot this summer but were notoriously tight for years before that. Chelsea calmed down their spending due to a transfer ban but I expect will be up to old tricks in this window and especially the summer. My point is that maybe we don't need to spend crazy sums to be competitive even over a longer time period.

 

It will be very tough if not impossible to sustain our current run of form over many years, but if we were able to keep our best players and manager and add a Tielemans style signing of 40-50m each summer who made an impact then I could see us being part of a perennial top 4. I expect we lose players now and again, but even Chelsea lost Hazard, Man U lost Ronaldo, Liverpool lost Countinho, so it happens even to those teams.

 

That said, my feeling currently is we will end up a bit like an English version of Sevilla in La Liga. Generally always in Europe, in the Champions League every 3-4 years and very occasionally even outside title challengers. Win some trophies, but not the tier 1 trophies like Champions League or Premier League. And to be honest, that sounds pretty great to me, especially if continue to play good stuff and recruit likeable players with some emphasis on home grown ones. For me this has been one of the best seasons ever for our club. 15/16 was magical and will never be topped, but we play better and more exciting stuff this season! The West Ham game where we made 9 changes and still played great football and played the Hammers off their own pitch summed the season up perfectly for me. We are class!

[Nick]

Just now, StriderHiryu said:

How far away does everyone think we are?

Next season could be very interesting for us. Assuming we are in the Champions League we will have a lot of games and I'd expect our league form to suffer. But if somehow we could get to the Champions League 2 years in a row or more (big ask!), then by definition we'd be a top 4 club. Man City and Man United spend vast fortunes, but Liverpool were only able to spend a lot recently due to crazy sales such as Suarez for 75m and Coutinho for 140m. Spurs spent quite a bit (for them) in the summer, but signed no one the year previous to that. Arsenal signed a lot this summer but were notoriously tight for years before that. Chelsea calmed down their spending due to a transfer ban but I expect will be up to old tricks in this window and especially the summer. My point is that maybe we don't need to spend crazy sums to be competitive even over a longer time period.

 

It will be very tough if not impossible to sustain our current run of form over many years, but if we were able to keep our best players and manager and add a Tielemans style signing of 40-50m each summer who made an impact then I could see us being part of a perennial top 4. I expect we lose players now and again, but even Chelsea lost Hazard, Man U lost Ronaldo, Liverpool lost Countinho, so it happens even to those teams.

 

That said, my feeling currently is we will end up a bit like an English version of Sevilla in La Liga. Generally always in Europe, in the Champions League every 3-4 years and very occasionally even outside title challengers. Win some trophies, but not the tier 1 trophies like Champions League or Premier League. And to be honest, that sounds pretty great to me, especially if continue to play good stuff and recruit likeable players with some emphasis on home grown ones. For me this has been one of the best seasons ever for our club. 15/16 was magical and will never be topped, but we play better and more exciting stuff this season! The West Ham game where we made 9 changes and still played great football and played the Hammers off their own pitch summed the season up perfectly for me. We are class!

There’s finishing top four, there’s even winning the title and then there’s being a top four club. Sadly even by definition- they are not the same.

 

So how far away are we you ask? Well we aren’t really in the ball park of what constitutes a modern top four club - because that’s revenue, from sponsors, gate, TV money etc and being able to pay the bottom end of your squad circa 100k a week and the top end circa 300k plus including sponsorship cash.....

 

If in the next couple of years we can retain our key players and pay them within FFP circa 175k a week I think we’ll be on a platform that could certainly compete with them but we are gonna need to win a cup, finish top four, improve the squad and have some decent success in the CL to earn enough money to scale up the process as well as get a gate in of 40k plus.....

 

Honestly, we might finish in the top four or six for the next 3 years but weirdly it’ll take a decade to be a top four club - minimum.

[StriderHiryu]

23 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

There’s finishing top four, there’s even winning the title and then there’s being a top four club. Sadly even by definition- they are not the same.

 

So how far away are we you ask? Well we aren’t really in the ball park of what constitutes a modern top four club - because that’s revenue, from sponsors, gate, TV money etc and being able to pay the bottom end of your squad circa 100k a week and the top end circa 300k plus including sponsorship cash.....

 

If in the next couple of years we can retain our key players and pay them within FFP circa 175k a week I think we’ll be on a platform that could certainly compete with them but we are gonna need to win a cup, finish top four, improve the squad and have some decent success in the CL to earn enough money to scale up the process as well as get a gate in of 40k plus.....

 

Honestly, we might finish in the top four or six for the next 3 years but weirdly it’ll take a decade to be a top four club - minimum.

Yeah that seems like more like the time it would require. The gap between the top 6 clubs revenue and the rest of the clubs is massive. And that's assuming everything goes right!

[urban.spaceman]

 

[Dahnsouff]

I imagine Jesse Lingard (JLingz) does indeed think that, and I am so upset 😭 

[Gravel]

12 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

I hear Man City are looking for a toilet attendant.

[Glorious Leicester Fan]

I would firstly like to apologise in advance for both being a long and arguably convoluted post.

 

I hold the opinion that the way MU have handled their pursuit of Maddison is a perfect illustration of their decline in both stature and influence. MU find themselves in a situation that they do not want to be in but can’t see a way out. MU are not unique, and many companies/organisations are in a similar position. I am an AI/Data scientist, and ‘problems don’t get fixed’ theories are a hot topic in my field of expertise. I recently read a book (by Eliezer Yudkowsky) that explain why this predicament occurs, which I feel is very pertinent to both MU and perversely to LCFC.

 

For Yudkowsky, there are three factors that can an account for ‘problems don’t get fixed’ within companies/organisations: Decision makers who are not beneficiaries, Asymmetric information, “bad Nash equilibria”. Stick with me as I try to relate this to MU and LCFC.

 

The first factor refers to cases where the decision lies in the hands of people who would gain little personally, or lose out personally, if they did what was necessary to help someone else. I think it’s generally accepted that whilst the business side is arguably working well, MU need help on the footballing matters, hence a call for a footballing overhaul (with a DoF). But what incentive is there for Ed Woodward to instigate such an overhaul? If anything, any significant change would arguably marginalise both his influence and power. I think the same could be said about the owners, whose self-interest is to simply make money. If they continue to do so, why rock the boat?

 

The second factor refers to cases where decision-makers can’t reliably learn the information they need to make decisions, even though someone else has that information. I love to see the decision processes behind some of MU recent transfers. I cannot believe that it was universally agreed within MU that Sanchez would be an optimum purchase. Conversely, I don’t think beyond the realms of possibility that some MU data nerd was extolling the virtues of players like Maguire (when at Hull) and Maddison (when at Norwich). For some reason he, she, they were ignored. Perhaps Maguire/Maddison were deemed as commercially nonviable to sponsors, which goes back to the first factor.

 

The third factor relates to systems with an organisation/company that are broken in multiple places so that no one actor can make them better. From what I have read it seems that a significant concentration of power lies with Ed Woodward and makes key financial and footballing decisions. For a company of MU’s size, this is ridiculous, and is beyond the realms of a single person to manage. I read a recent interview with Arsene Wenger who said that Arsenal had become inhuman. His exact words were:

 

“When I arrived at Arsenal, we were 80. When I left, there were 750, and when there’s 750 people in one organisation, each thinks about saving themselves rather than improving”.

 

I think LCFC success can in a large part be explained by our ability to negotiate these pitfalls. It seems to me that authority is distributed more evenly than MU. Our coaching, management, scouting and corporate/business sections are working in tandem with each other. They are all listened to and respected. For me, most significant is that our size is our strength. We can adapt to an ever-changing footballing landscape and make quick and collaborative decisions. We are still a 'family club' and we are all pointing in the same direction. 

 

I hope this all makes sense.

Edited 7 January 2020 by Glorious Leicester Fan

[Grebfromgrebland]

1 minute ago, Glorious Leicester Fan said:

I would firstly like to apologise in advance for both being a long and arguably convoluted post.

 

I hold the opinion that the way MU have handled their pursuit of Maddison is a perfect illustration of their decline in both stature and influence. MU find themselves in a situation that they do not want to be in but can’t see a way out. MU are not unique, and many companies/organisations are in a similar position. I am an AI/Data scientist, and ‘problems don’t get fixed’ theories are a hot topic in my field of expertise. I recently read a book (by Eliezer Yudkowsky) that explain why this predicament occurs, which I feel is very pertinent to both MU and perversely to LCFC.

 

For Yudkowsky, there are three factors that can an account for ‘problems don’t get fixed’ within companies/organisations: Decision makers who are not beneficiaries, Asymmetric information, “bad Nash equilibria”. Stick with me as I try to relate this to MU and LCFC.

 

The first factor refers to cases where the decision lies in the hands of people who would gain little personally, or lose out personally, if they did what was necessary to help someone else. I think it’s generally accepted that whilst the business side is arguably working well, MU need help on the footballing matters, hence a call for a footballing overhaul (with a DoF). But what incentive is there for Ed Woodward to instigate such an overhaul? If anything, any significant change would arguably marginalise both his influence and power. I think the same could be said about the owners, whose self-interest is to simply make money. If they continue to do so, why rock the boat?

 

The second factor refers to cases where decision-makers can’t reliably learn the information they need to make decisions, even though someone else has that information. I love to see the decision processes behind some of MU recent transfers. I cannot believe that it was universally agreed within MU that Sanchez would be an optimum purchase. Conversely, I don’t think beyond the realms of possibility that some MU data nerd was extolling the virtues of players like Maguire (when at Hull) and Maddison (when at Norwich). For some reason he, she, they were ignored. Perhaps Maguire/Maddison were deemed as commercially nonviable to sponsors, which goes back to the first factor.

 

The third factor relates to systems with an organisation/company that are broken in multiple places so that no one actor can make them better. From what I have read it seems that a significant concentration of power lies with Ed Woodward and makes key financial and footballing decisions. For a company of MU’s size, this is ridiculous, and is beyond the realms of a single person to manage. I read a recent interview with Arsene Wenger who said that Arsenal had become inhuman. His exact words were:

 

“When I arrived at Arsenal, we were 80. When I left, there were 750, and when there’s 750 people in one organisation, each thinks about saving themselves rather than improving”.

 

I think LCFC success can in a large part be explained by our ability to negotiate these pitfalls. It seems to me that authority is distrusted more evenly than MU. Our coaching, management, scouting and corporate/business sections are working in tandem with each other. They are all listened to and respected. For me, most significant is that our size is our strength. We can adapt to an ever-changing footballing landscape and make quick and collaborative decisions. We are still a 'family club' and are all pointing in one direction. 

 

I hope this all makes sense.

Is this on blinkist?

[Glorious Leicester Fan]

5 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

Is this on blinkist?

the book?

[Dahnsouff]

9 minutes ago, Glorious Leicester Fan said:

I would firstly like to apologise in advance for both being a long and arguably convoluted post.

 

........ 

 

I hope this all makes sense.

Sorry, have condensed your post, did not want to repost it all again.

 

Interesting stuff, the suggestion seems to be that there is a self protection mentality and overly centralised distribution of managerial power that leads to a very financial bias (due to Ed’s background and him being the core of this centralised power) to decisions MU make.

Did I reach the intended conclusion?

 

If so, this is a fairly common behaviour within many businesses I would suggest, where fear coupled with a lack of trust leads to a hoarding of decision making power, often at locations not suited to make all decisions in isolation.

[Dahnsouff]

32 minutes ago, Gravel said:

I hear Man City are looking for a toilet attendant.

Presumably Murphy does the men’s whilst JLingz does the ladies? 

[Stinkenzo]

He isn't (not even good enough to get in our first XI tbh) but I would imagine he probably does think he's too big for us

[Glorious Leicester Fan]

6 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Sorry, have condensed your post, did not want to repost it all again.

 

Interesting stuff, the suggestion seems to be that there is a self protection mentality and overly centralised distribution of managerial power that leads to a very financial bias (due to Ed’s background and him being the core of this centralised power) to decisions MU make.

Did I reach the intended conclusion?

 

If so, this is a fairly common behaviour within many businesses I would suggest, where fear coupled with a lack of trust leads to a hoarding of decision making power, often at locations not suited to make all decisions in isolation.

Your summary is spot on. Turkey's don't vote for Christmas. 

[TRAD-DAD]

2 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

How far away does everyone think we are?

Next season could be very interesting for us. Assuming we are in the Champions League we will have a lot of games and I'd expect our league form to suffer. But if somehow we could get to the Champions League 2 years in a row or more (big ask!), then by definition we'd be a top 4 club. Man City and Man United spend vast fortunes, but Liverpool were only able to spend a lot recently due to crazy sales such as Suarez for 75m and Coutinho for 140m. Spurs spent quite a bit (for them) in the summer, but signed no one the year previous to that. Arsenal signed a lot this summer but were notoriously tight for years before that. Chelsea calmed down their spending due to a transfer ban but I expect will be up to old tricks in this window and especially the summer. My point is that maybe we don't need to spend crazy sums to be competitive even over a longer time period.

 

It will be very tough if not impossible to sustain our current run of form over many years, but if we were able to keep our best players and manager and add a Tielemans style signing of 40-50m each summer who made an impact then I could see us being part of a perennial top 4. I expect we lose players now and again, but even Chelsea lost Hazard, Man U lost Ronaldo, Liverpool lost Countinho, so it happens even to those teams.

 

That said, my feeling currently is we will end up a bit like an English version of Sevilla in La Liga. Generally always in Europe, in the Champions League every 3-4 years and very occasionally even outside title challengers. Win some trophies, but not the tier 1 trophies like Champions League or Premier League. And to be honest, that sounds pretty great to me, especially if continue to play good stuff and recruit likeable players with some emphasis on home grown ones. For me this has been one of the best seasons ever for our club. 15/16 was magical and will never be topped, but we play better and more exciting stuff this season! The West Ham game where we made 9 changes and still played great football and played the Hammers off their own pitch summed the season up perfectly for me. We are class!

I'd take being like Sevilla. When you consider for most Leicester fans just being mid-table Premier league was more than we could have hoped for. I know we have moved up a little in terms of aspirations but just being able to say each season  that next season we will still be in the prem is good enough for me. The thought of playing championship football again would be heartbreaking. Lets be very grateful we have what we have.

[st albans fox]

1 minute ago, TRAD-DAD said:

I'd take being like Sevilla. When you consider for most Leicester fans just being mid-table Premier league was more than we could have hoped for. I know we have moved up a little in terms of aspirations but just being able to say each season  that next season we will still be in the prem is good enough for me. The thought of playing championship football again would be heartbreaking. Lets be very grateful we have what we have.

Growing oranges in the East Midlands will be brilliant !!!

[Lako42]

Danny Murphy is a complete ****

[ALC Fox]

1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

I dare say he does, but who cares? He's not good enough to play in our team and wouldn't in any way be an adequate replacement for Maddison. We sign him we go backwards.

[rico]

5 hours ago, TRAD-DAD said:

Never heard a word form her then in that clip?

And.......?

 

i watched the full show, she was actually saying that maybe Leicester don’t need to sell, where as the 2 muppets were doing their best to sell him to Utd, i don’t know what your beef is.....?

Edited 7 January 2020 by rico

[Md9]

Murphy is such a bellend. No way lingard gets in any team bigger than us. He doesn’t even get in our squad never mind first team. Lingard gets a lot of sh** but it’s utd fault they pay him so much and people like Murphy make out he is to good for teams like us, Really hope utd spurs and arsenal all miss out on Europe next season so people like Murphy realise there is more than 6 teams in the league. 

[ithuriel]

5 minutes ago, Md9 said:

Murphy is such a bellend. No way lingard gets in any team bigger than us. He doesn’t even get in our squad never mind first team. Lingard gets a lot of sh** but it’s utd fault they pay him so much and people like Murphy make out he is to good for teams like us, Really hope utd spurs and arsenal all miss out on Europe next season so people like Murphy realise there is more than 6 teams in the league. 

Never happen in regards Murphy, he is more blinkered than a drunkard with their head stuck in a black bin liner whilst lost in a coal mine.

[Md9]

I reckon they are only putting the story about Maddison to utd to unsettle the team as they don’t like us doing well and will prob just go for greilish in the summer any way as he will be the cheaper option and at the minute villa are not doing much so no point trying to unsettle him