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Coronavirus Thread

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5 hours ago, Line-X said:

What is irrefutable, is that there have been no known studies conducted or publications surrounding the current strain, SARS-CoV-2. Indicating that far from the suggestions of social media fantasists that it was leaked from a laboratory or more particularly, The Wuhan Institute for Virology, it was indeed a novel viral pandemic owing to zoonotic spillover. 

Huge article here:

 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-escape-theory.html

 

I’ve only skimmed through some of it myself, but I’ve read other stuff, no doubt dismissed as conspiracy theory along similar lines.

 

It does seem a huge coincidence that in the very city in which SARS nCOV2 was first discovered, is China’s only level 4 bio secure laboratory, that bat virus research was being carried out in it by a scientist known as the “bat woman” who had collected samples from hundreds of bats looking for viruses, and that the lab was rumoured to be conducting “gain of function” research. Rebuttals seem to be along the lines of “there is no proof that...”  but equally they would say that wouldn’t they?

 

I’m certainly in no position to judge, and perhaps this is just coincidence, but I do think there is at least a prima facie case to answer. If it did originate from the lab I’ve little doubt that it wouldn’t have been deliberate. Rather an attempt to study an exciting field of research with good intentions in mind that then went wrong due to accidental leakage. Cockup theory of history is usually more plausible than conspiracy.

 

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24 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Surely people can make up their own minds whether or not to take the risk of booking something now? Or do people want absolutely everything spelled out for them, every single day as the situation changes? What Schapps said is correct, there are a lot of things which need to change before we can travel, and obviously he doesn't know when that will be.  I know that, we all know that. I've booked holidays hoping that said things do change,  I guess Hancock is hoping for the best too. If you want to book, book. If you don't, don't. 

It's not about being told what to do or having things spelled out or taking the risk. 

 

It's about the contrasting messages from the people in charge. 

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Just now, StanSP said:

It's not about being told what to do or having things spelled out or taking the risk. 

 

It's about the contrasting messages from the people in charge. 

But it's not really a contrasting message, is it? Shapps said he doesn't know when we will be able to travel. That's true. Hancock doesn't know either, none of us do, but like me and many others is hoping that we will be able to so has chosen to book a holiday for later in the year. Downing Street have said it's up to us to decide if we want to book or not. I genuinely don't see a contrast in any of this?

 

If it's not about being told what to do or having things spelled out for you, what is it about?

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Early on in the pandemic there was uncertainty whether Covid could be caught twice. I’m pretty sure we know it’s possible, but is there any idea how prevalent reinfection is? Is it fair to say because we didn’t have the capability to test properly early on, we probably won’t have any meaningful data on this just yet?

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4 hours ago, Nalis said:

They associate it with mistrust in the government - not condoning it but they've feel like they've fvcked over by the authorities in general so its difficult to judge on that aspect as I dont spend anytime in their shoes. Saying that, there needs to be more of a push from the influencial black and south asian role models to encourage vaccine uptake in those communities.

It's the whatsapp groups they're in. My mother is Muslim and she's in a whatsapp group with other local Muslims. The amount of anti-vax information spread on them will make you tear your hair out.

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23 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Huge article here:

 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-escape-theory.html

 

I’ve only skimmed through some of it myself, but I’ve read other stuff, no doubt dismissed as conspiracy theory along similar lines.

 

It does seem a huge coincidence that in the very city in which SARS nCOV2 was first discovered, is China’s only level 4 bio secure laboratory, that bat virus research was being carried out in it by a scientist known as the “bat woman” who had collected samples from hundreds of bats looking for viruses, and that the lab was rumoured to be conducting “gain of function” research. Rebuttals seem to be along the lines of “there is no proof that...”  but equally they would say that wouldn’t they?

 

I’m certainly in no position to judge, and perhaps this is just coincidence, but I do think there is at least a prima facie case to answer. If it did originate from the lab I’ve little doubt that it wouldn’t have been deliberate. Rather an attempt to study an exciting field of research with good intentions in mind that then went wrong due to accidental leakage. Cockup theory of history is usually more plausible than conspiracy.

 

One hell of a coincidence!

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8 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Huge article here:

 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-escape-theory.html

 

I’ve only skimmed through some of it myself, but I’ve read other stuff, no doubt dismissed as conspiracy theory along similar lines.

 

It does seem a huge coincidence that in the very city in which SARS nCOV2 was first discovered, is China’s only level 4 bio secure laboratory, that bat virus research was being carried out in it by a scientist known as the “bat woman” who had collected samples from hundreds of bats looking for viruses, and that the lab was rumoured to be conducting “gain of function” research. Rebuttals seem to be along the lines of “there is no proof that...”  but equally they would say that wouldn’t they?

 

I’m certainly in no position to judge, and perhaps this is just coincidence, but I do think there is at least a prima facie case to answer. If it did originate from the lab I’ve little doubt that it wouldn’t have been deliberate. Rather an attempt to study an exciting field of research with good intentions in mind that then went wrong due to accidental leakage. Cockup theory of history is usually more plausible than conspiracy.

 

Thanks for that, nothing if not an entertaining read. I find some of the anecdotal evidence, based on opinions and emails, utterly bizarre, particularly the unsubstantiated claim that; “there are indeed many unexplained features of this virus that are hard if not impossible to explain based on a completely natural origin.”. No use saying it. What are they? On the contrary, everything about this virus points to zoonotic spillover. The entire article reeks of poor journalism but cleverly crafted fiction aimed at a justifiably suspicious lay audience. 

 

To emphasise again and in short, Shi Zhengli has has consistently and extensively published the genetic sequences of isolates from the bat coronaviruses she has studied throughout and during her research. This is all on record, has been transparent and her work is comprehensively detailed in the public domain. To allege a laboratory accident would be to suggest that additional work had been conducted in secrecy, which of course there is no evidence for and would be utterly unsubstantiated.

 

Moreover, there is strong evidence to suggest that SARS-CoV-2 didn't emerge from a Wuhan wet market or even Wuhan itself. Instead, the live animal market may have merely been the site of a superspreader event. The genome of SARS-CoV-2 is most closely related to coronaviruses isolated from horseshoe bats in China. From there, it is postulated that the virus may have jumped to another animal - as I said in an earlier post, likely a pangolin -and then made the jump to humans. Wet markets, where a variety of different species of live animals are present, are the perfect environment for humans to come into contact with them. SARS, began at a similar market in 2002, after it had spread from bats to civets. The study that definitively showed the species of bat that SARS came from was published only recently - a decade and a half after the outbreak first occurred. It took that long to investigate caves and colonies, to sift through samples, and build an evidence base to demonstrate causality and demonstrate that it was this bat at this time. I'm confident that science will again find the true origin of Covid-19 and that this origin will also be natural. 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, StanSP said:

It's not about being told what to do or having things spelled out or taking the risk. 

 

It's about the contrasting messages from the people in charge. 

Think you're making a bit of a mountain out a molehill. No one knows what it's gonna be like come summetime. Anyone that says different is lying. I've booked a week for the end of July, if I go, cool, if I can't go, I get my money back.

 

Who gives a monkeys.

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9 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Thanks for that, nothing if not an entertaining read. I find some of the anecdotal evidence, based on opinions and emails, utterly bizarre, particularly the unsubstantiated claim that; “there are indeed many unexplained features of this virus that are hard if not impossible to explain based on a completely natural origin.”. No use saying it. What are they? On the contrary, everything about this virus points to zoonotic spillover. The entire article reeks of poor journalism but cleverly crafted fiction aimed at a justifiably suspicious lay audience. 

 

To emphasise again and in short, Shi Zhengli has has consistently and extensively published the genetic sequences of isolates from the bat coronaviruses she has studied throughout and during her research. This is all on record, has been transparent and her work is comprehensively detailed in the public domain. To allege a laboratory accident would be to suggest that additional work had been conducted in secrecy, which of course there is no evidence for and would be utterly unsubstantiated.

 

Moreover, there is strong evidence to suggest that SARS-CoV-2 didn't emerge from a Wuhan wet market or even Wuhan itself. Instead, the live animal market may have merely been the site of a superspreader event. The genome of SARS-CoV-2 is most closely related to coronaviruses isolated from horseshoe bats in China. From there, it is postulated that the virus may have jumped to another animal - as I said in an earlier post, likely a pangolin -and then made the jump to humans. Wet markets, where a variety of different species of live animals are present, are the perfect environment for humans to come into contact with them. SARS, began at a similar market in 2002, after it had spread from bats to civets. The study that definitively showed the species of bat that SARS came from was published only recently - a decade and a half after the outbreak first occurred. It took that long to investigate caves and colonies, to sift through samples, and build an evidence base to demonstrate causality and demonstrate that it was this bat at this time. I'm confident that science will again find the true origin of Covid-19 and that this origin will also be natural. 

 

 

Well of course I bow to your expertise in this subject, and do not claim any myself.
 

I think the bit I’ve highlighted was referring to a sequence in the viral genome whose origin is unexplained and is thought unlikely to have suddenly appeared naturally, associated with “furin cleavage” which i understand to be the part of the virus that actually permits entry into human cells. Many months ago I watched a video in which a paper on this subject was discussed. Again, probably would be dismissed as conspiracy theory.

 

With the sunami of bullshit that does the rounds now, it’s very difficult to keep a healthy scepticism of what we are told, whilst also deferring to genuine scientific opinion. However, scientific opinion is far more than simply assertion by an expert who may or may not have reputation, funding and belief to defend. At some point it needs to be backed up by peer reviewed research.

 

I do take your point about Shi Zhengli. I believe that she is well respected in her field and presumably as you say, there is no evidence that she produced such a virus.

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2 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

Everyone has different ideas regarding this though, don't they? I've booked a couple of holidays already, if they don't go ahead, so be it, I'll rearrange. I have friends who have done the same, and other friends who won't book anything yet.

 

I don't really see the issue? 

 

1 hour ago, FoxesDeb said:

Surely people can make up their own minds whether or not to take the risk of booking something now? Or do people want absolutely everything spelled out for them, every single day as the situation changes? What Schapps said is correct, there are a lot of things which need to change before we can travel, and obviously he doesn't know when that will be.  I know that, we all know that. I've booked holidays hoping that said things do change,  I guess Hancock is hoping for the best too. If you want to book, book. If you don't, don't. 

Dunno - there’s quite a few key workers who are deserving of a break but their workplace wants to ensure there is cover/shifts are achieved. That stretches right from supermarket workers to the frontline staff 
 

Equally there are smaller independent businesses whom need to be aware of whether to hire staff, when to start orders (which is going to be a much bigger obstacle subject to the new export/import rules) and under what rules that will be permitted. 
 

I understand your point but the reality is that by not being clear those affected are unsure. Rather than totally clear there is a holiday or there isn’t a holiday. It’s not too dis-similar for the Christmas situation - manage expectations and if it comes in early than expected, great news 

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4 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

 

Dunno - there’s quite a few key workers who are deserving of a break but their workplace wants to ensure there is cover/shifts are achieved. That stretches right from supermarket workers to the frontline staff 
 

Equally there are smaller independent businesses whom need to be aware of whether to hire staff, when to start orders (which is going to be a much bigger obstacle subject to the new export/import rules) and under what rules that will be permitted. 
 

I understand your point but the reality is that by not being clear those affected are unsure. Rather than totally clear there is a holiday or there isn’t a holiday. It’s not too dis-similar for the Christmas situation - manage expectations and if it comes in early than expected, great news 

Everyone is entitled to use their annual leave whether or not we can actually have 'holidays', so that situation really shouldn't be any different whether or not people can travel, and won't be different to any other year when people are using their AL surely?

 

Given that nobody knows what the situation will be like come the summer, what would you prefer to happen then? Us be told we are not able to take holidays, and then it transpires too late for people to arrange AL and book that we actually can, or to be told 'yes book a holiday' and then for the situation to be that nobody is able to travel? Surely the truth, that nobody actually knows, is better?

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5 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Everyone is entitled to use their annual leave whether or not we can actually have 'holidays', so that situation really shouldn't be any different whether or not people can travel, and won't be different to any other year when people are using their AL surely?

 

Given that nobody knows what the situation will be like come the summer, what would you prefer to happen then? Us be told we are not able to take holidays, and then it transpires too late for people to arrange AL and book that we actually can, or to be told 'yes book a holiday' and then for the situation to be that nobody is able to travel? Surely the truth, that nobody actually knows, is better?

Yes, I would prefer that situation you describe in the latter. It’s about giving the public the cold hard facts - not some loose line again which has plagued this cabinet I’ve the last year. A lack of clarity and indecision has continually let down businesses. I’m viewing it from a different angle in the way you are. Business can’t keep hopping along in a manner which means they are paying outgoings in the hope. They are better to shut down and reduce their outgoings. 

I disagree everyone can use annual leave as they wish - as I used in my example there are workplaces which require minimum cover etc. 

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9 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Yes, I would prefer that situation you describe in the latter. It’s about giving the public the cold hard facts - not some loose line again which has plagued this cabinet I’ve the last year. A lack of clarity and indecision has continually let down businesses. 

I disagree everyone can use annual leave as they wish - as I used in my example there are workplaces which require minimum cover etc. 

When you say the latter, do you mean the truth, that nobody knows, which is actually what they've said? 

 

Most businesses need minimum cover, my workplace is one of them, and we are also counted as key workers. I've been able to book my annual leave over the last 12 months though, and for the next 12 months, as have my colleagues. I didn't say people could use it 'as they wish'. The pandemic has not meant that our AL has been restricted, and nor should it be, I thought the law protected against that. 

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14 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

When you say the latter, do you mean the truth, that nobody knows, which is actually what they've said? 

 

Most businesses need minimum cover, my workplace is one of them, and we are also counted as key workers. I've been able to book my annual leave over the last 12 months though, and for the next 12 months, as have my colleagues. The pandemic has not meant that our AL has been restricted, and nor should it be, I thought the law protected against that. 

We should not have the option to book holidays in the current situation until the government given their approval for summer holidays. Simple as. Hurts businesses. Raises expectations. Will eventually hurt the consumer when sadly companies go bump through a lack of cash flow servicing refunds and cancelled holidays. 
 

Ive literally googled ‘Boris Summer Holiday 2021’ where two weeks ago he’s saying his confident of holidays and now he’s saying not to book. That indecision means business have to keep operating. Which is hurting their cash flow. If there is a clear defined decision. they can mothball properties saving money and overheads. 
 

You are misunderstand my point regards annual leave. People want the facts to book or save their holiday as they wish. Without coming across coarse I believe you’d moved to Spain? Apologise if I’ve misunderstood there. 

 

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The Hancock/Shapps mis message argument is exactly why the media keep asking the same questions regarding summer holidays over and over again so that eventually they will get the contradiction story.

 

I've booked a holiday abroad and in the UK, there is actually a crossover of dates so one will to be loved regardless, just in case. I'm hopeful UK holidays will be allowed by June, I think they will but obviously under social distancing guidelines. Once it warms up it's going to be a struggle to keep people under restrictions, rightly or wrongly.

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1 minute ago, RowlattsFox said:

The Hancock/Shapps mis message argument is exactly why the media keep asking the same questions regarding summer holidays over and over again so that eventually they will get the contradiction story.

 

Exactly. When people excuse it on the lines of ‘but then they will get accused of the party line‘. Well in the midst of a pandemic, I want the country’s government to have a single, party line united voice 

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2 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

We should not have the option to book holidays in the current situation until the government given their approval for summer holidays. Simple as. Hurts businesses. Raises expectations. Will eventually hurt the consumer when sadly companies go bump through a lack of cash flow servicing refunds and cancelled holidays. 
 

Ive literally googled ‘Boris Summer Holiday 2021’ where two weeks ago he’s saying his confident of holidays and now he’s saying not to book. That indecision means business have to keep operating. Which it hurting their cash flow. If there is a clear defined lockdown, they can mothball properties saving money and overheads. 
 

You are misunderstand my point regards annual leave. People want the facts to book or save their holiday as they wish. Without coming across coarse I believe you’d moved to Spain? Apologise if I’ve misunderstood there. 

 

Ok, so we'll have to disagree on your first point then. I think people should be able to book if they wish, many people need something to look forward to even if they know it may not happen. Several people I know have booked for later this year, and say it  has given them a lift to know something is booked. They are realistic and know it may not happen, but it has helped them to have something to focus on and look forward to.

 

2 weeks is a long time at present, and I don't think he has said 'not to book', he has said it is up to individuals to make the decision for themselves, in uncertain times.

 

I'm not sure what you think 'the facts' are at the minute, other than nobody knows? I've booked AL, others haven't, it's up to everyone to decide for themselves. 

 

Yes you're right I am now in Spain, although I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion? I am still allowed to go on holiday when the travel restrictions are lifted lol

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Just now, FoxesDeb said:

Yes you're right I am now in Spain, although I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion? I am still allowed to go on holiday when the travel restrictions are lifted lol

No it just adds context to your opinion on the current British government when you are not affected by the decisions (and dare I say the constant cheerleading of the current bunch).
 

Yet here we are discussing the sound bites of three British politicians. 
 

Equally you in a different culture when it comes to the workplace and annual leave. 

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5 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

No it just adds context to your opinion on the current British government when you are not affected by the decisions (and dare I say the constant cheerleading of the current bunch).
 

Yet here we are discussing the sound bites of three British politicians. 
 

Equally you in a different culture when it comes to the workplace and annual leave. 

Wow, there's a lot of assumptions here lol

 

If by not affected you mean my children and step children are in the UK and obviously subject to the current travel restrictions and all the other decisions, then yes. 

 

I'm still working for a UK company so my workplace and annual leave situation hasn't changed in the slightest either. 

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