2020/21 Under 23's, U19's, Development ... thread

[Foxy-Lady]

14 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

I don't think that you'll see any changes for at least 2 seasons if you are watching the u18s. 

 

The problems will be big, coming from 10 years ago. You are seeing the recruitment work from that time bare it's fruit now. As important as coaching is, if you don't have the talent collectively, then your age group will lose games. Not that that should ever be a metric with development football. 

Your comments are very informative and suggest a degree of "inside knowledge" but there have been many on here (myself included!) that have been saying for years that the U18 and U23 coaching set up did not change or evolve with the evolution and aspirations we have seen at our club in the past 5 years. Beagleball was designed for Lg1 10 years ago....and he's still with us!

 

Most of the current generation of youngsters who have progressed through to the first team benefitted from the outstanding coaching of Idiakez 5 years ago and since his departure, we have regressed at youth level even though we have improved beyond recognition at all other levels within our club.

 

I don't think this is a recruitment issue and i have said this many times before. You could put the best youth players in the world in the hands of our coaches in these age groups and i doubt we would see results that would equate to the quality of players they have at our disposal....and i actually question whether our "pulling power" would be a reason for the best youngsters to chose LCFC if their pathway to the first team is blocked and they are in the hands of coaches who are not technically good enough to develope them to to their full potential.

Its probably the reason why Fulham have such an outstanding team at U18 level as youngsters in their catchment area chose them over the bigger clubs (Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal) as they know they have a better chance to develope and showcase their talents in the hands of very talented coaches

 

Until you change the chefs, the food is unlikely to get any better....! 

[sacreblueits442]

23 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

I don't think that you'll see any changes for at least 2 seasons if you are watching the u18s. 

 

The problems will be big, coming from 10 years ago. You are seeing the recruitment work from that time bare it's fruit now. As important as coaching is, if you don't have the talent collectively, then your age group will lose games. Not that that should ever be a metric with development football. 

..you would think in those ten years players would have come and gone!!!

  You would constantly be looking to scout individuals in all age groups and who they started with at eight years old will not be all the players presently playing in the U18s.

  This will always come back to Rudkin and his willingness to embrace a structure which is not so narrowly defined.

  He will point to Barnes and Chilwell also Hamza, Andy King and now Luke Thomas coming through as  a success story and proof that his system works, it does however leaves an academy with average players developing alongside each other and prevents the mavericks from coming through.

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Kilworthfox said:

I don't think that you'll see any changes for at least 2 seasons if you are watching the u18s. 

 

The problems will be big, coming from 10 years ago. You are seeing the recruitment work from that time bare it's fruit now. As important as coaching is, if you don't have the talent collectively, then your age group will lose games. Not that that should ever be a metric with development football. 

15 years ago we were just as bad financially  and that crop of youngsters included Chilwell, Barnes, Choudhury, King, Schlupp, Gradel etc who were recruited. 

 

You have a point though in the lag between when we have progressed as a club. It's hard to be satisfied with the academy though whilst they've retained the majority of coaches at an older level from when we were a two bit outfit.

[Thefoxman]

I have 2 boys in the academy and have been there nearly 4 years! Just to let you know the coaches and training is awfull!! 

 

Imagine moving to a 120m training facility and bringing the current group of staff! pointless.

 

Most age groups get beat every week btw.

[Angus Scott]

17 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Results might not be that important but conceding more than 7 goals foe the 4th time this season doesn't suggest a positive learning environment either. I'm still yet to see any tangible evidence of the academy making changes.

Quite right to say that results don't matter, but I really don't think that it can be any good for these players to be losing most weeks & in certain games getting thrashed. Their confidence must be rock bottom & in any sport loss of confidence is a bad thing. The players all through the academy up to the U23's must think they are failures

[sacreblueits442]

37 minutes ago, Thefoxman said:

I have 2 boys in the academy and have been there nearly 4 years! Just to let you know the coaches and training is awfull!! 

 

Imagine moving to a 120m training facility and bringing the current group of staff! pointless.

 

Most age groups get beat every week btw.

..absolutely no surprise!!!

[ALC Fox]

I don't know a great deal about youth football or about our young players specifically, but it does seem as though our U18s and U23s are having torrid seasons.

 

Could it be that our most experienced and talented players at U23 have largely been called up to train with the first team during a time when Covid restrictions have been in place, preventing them from going back into the U23s for game time, meaning that more U18s have been stepping up to the U23s and more U16s have been needed in the U18s? And if so, is it not really an excuse because other teams have been in a similar predicament?

 

With those U23s moving up to train for the first team we also the likes of KDH, Admiral Muskwe, Josh Knight and Calum Wright on loan who would've contributed positively to the U23s this season but wouldn't have benefitted as much in terms of their development as players.

 

I guess it's a tough balance to get right. Players of all ages and levels will want to play for clubs like Liverpool which is how they're able to loan out players like Harvey Elliott and still challenge for the FA Youth Cup (although Elliott is still only 18 he's clearly several echelons above U18 football anyway so it's admittedly an extreme example).

 

With how well we're run as a club, we're seeing huge strides being made with our men's and women's first teams. And with the new training ground, surely such progress with the youth teams will follow. We've already heard about how we're aiming usurp the likes of Derby and, particularly, Forest in the region when it comes to youth recruitment. And I would like to think that we can offer as competitive an opportunity as any club in the country now with the facilities we have.

 

So is it now about recruiting the coaches to match the ambition? Are our current coaches really not good enough? Rodgers is right, there could be £20m+ players in the academy, and the right coaching can bring these out and develop them. I'd have thought this is something that's well underway already but my concern is that this might be an area where the owners' principle of loyalty could affect us. It worked with Rudkin but is it working with Beaglehole, for example?

 

But, as I say, I'm not the most knowledgeable on this so all of the above is complete conjecture.

[davieG]

59 minutes ago, Angus Scott said:

Quite right to say that results don't matter, but I really don't think that it can be any good for these players to be losing most weeks & in certain games getting thrashed. Their confidence must be rock bottom & in any sport loss of confidence is a bad thing. The players all through the academy up to the U23's must think they are failures

Plus, It may not matter for the younger players but when they reach the U18s upwards they should already have all the basics and should be learning what they need to become professional footballers which will involve some aspects of football like tactics etc but should also be about instilling a winning mentality or at worst not losing.

You can be sure if they gone on loan to a lower league club they'll be expected to have that in them as they'll be playing alongside players that are playing for a living and their contracts.

[The People's Hero]

1 hour ago, Thefoxman said:

I have 2 boys in the academy and have been there nearly 4 years! Just to let you know the coaches and training is awfull!! 

 

Imagine moving to a 120m training facility and bringing the current group of staff! pointless.

 

Most age groups get beat every week btw.

I don't think there is much doubt it needs a massive revamp; I just wonder when we'll see it. Hopefully this summer.

[davieG]

1 minute ago, pmcla26 said:

I think some of you guys need to remember that these coaches in the academy have families to provide for and bills to pay.
 

The same way that we nurture talented footballers I’m sure the club also try to develop the coaching at the club and things will naturally only get better from here for those guys with the new facilities to work with. 

 

Obviously as time goes on personnel may need changing in areas, but it’s not like our club and owners, especially in this current time, to make sweeping changes that are going to have a huge knock on effect on normal, every-day people, even if we maybe need to do more in terms of developing players (which to be honest, we’re seemingly alright at going off of the evidence of the last few years) 

Did David Rennie do something wrong if not I'm not convinced by your view of this.

[An Sionnach]

Rodgers has been coaching most of his football career , so apart from his normal responsibilities , he must have assessed the quality of the youth teams coaching staff. Sadly football is a cut-throat business and if he thinks they are not good enough , they will have to go.

[The People's Hero]

Just now, An Sionnach said:

Rodgers has been coaching most of his football career , so apart from his normal responsibilities , he must have assessed the quality of the youth teams coaching staff. Sadly football is a cut-throat business and if he thinks they are not good enough , they will have to go.

There will be big changes; we all know that. Its just when and how quickly the results come through.

 

The recruitment of players (in terms of efforts and where we can go) and facilities have obviously improved and KP do look at the big picture. Things tend to be evolutionary though; I think we might need to be a bit more immediate and revolutionary on this over the summer.

[Ric Flair]

46 minutes ago, The People's Hero said:

I don't think there is much doubt it needs a massive revamp; I just wonder when we'll see it. Hopefully this summer.

Beaglehole was supposedly being moved away from the U23's last summer when Peake retired from the U18's. It was an opportunity to get fresh ideas in to the 2 set ups leading into the first team. They then changed their mind on Beaglehole (possibly due to the pandemic) and replaced Peake with the U16 coach. Brilliant

[The People's Hero]

16 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Beaglehole was supposedly being moved away from the U23's last summer when Peake retired from the U18's. It was an opportunity to get fresh ideas in to the 2 set ups leading into the first team. They then changed their mind on Beaglehole (possibly due to the pandemic) and replaced Peake with the U16 coach. Brilliant

I'd be absolutely amazed if we aren't talking to excellently performing individuals in jobs with other clubs; perhaps with input from BR.

 

I'd expect movement in the summer and a fairly major re-shuffle.

 

But what do I know??

[sacreblueits442]

49 minutes ago, An Sionnach said:

Rodgers has been coaching most of his football career , so apart from his normal responsibilities , he must have assessed the quality of the youth teams coaching staff. Sadly football is a cut-throat business and if he thinks they are not good enough , they will have to go.

...I  think Rudkin is the stumbling block at the moment!!!

  I really do not believe Rodgers will be able to win the battle between him and Rudders. Remembering Rodgers first day he went down to watch the U23s  and he could not have been too impressed with what he had seen.

 

 

[Kilworthfox]

6 hours ago, sacreblueits442 said:

..you would think in those ten years players would have come and gone!!!

  You would constantly be looking to scout individuals in all age groups and who they started with at eight years old will not be all the players presently playing in the U18s.

  This will always come back to Rudkin and his willingness to embrace a structure which is not so narrowly defined.

  He will point to Barnes and Chilwell also Hamza, Andy King and now Luke Thomas coming through as  a success story and proof that his system works, it does however leaves an academy with average players developing alongside each other and prevents the mavericks from coming through.

If you have an overall poor age group at under 9, (the first age group that can sign for any academy) you'll probably have poor age group by the time it's decision making time for scholars. Not that this is overly important as like I've said, it's about individuals not the group. 

 

If you have a great talent then they are challenged by playing a year up. All of the players deemed to be ones of interest will be playing a year up at times. 

 

It's very difficult to improve an age group after the under 9 cut off. This is because all players will be known by all of our Academy rival clubs. These clubs are not Manchester City or Chelsea! Our rivals are the clubs in the Midlands. The closer to Seagrave the bigger the rival. Namely Derby, then Forest in that order because of the EPPP categorisation that Leicester is a 1 so is Derby, but Forest is a 2. 

 

Big rich clubs for example are out of range to be rivals for players as geographically their area is not our area. 

 

You don't get a dog and bark yourself, if you are senior at a football club or any organisation. 

 

Barnes had every advantage! 

Chilwell came from Rushden 1k fee

King was a Chelsea release. 

Hamza massively improved in his last few months and may have been released... Before his improvement. 

 

Development is not a linear process!

There are no 100% correct rules for successful development... But there are standards and beliefs which are generally accepted as the done thing because they have been successful for elite players historically. 

[Kilworthfox]

5 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

15 years ago we were just as bad financially  and that crop of youngsters included Chilwell, Barnes, Choudhury, King, Schlupp, Gradel etc who were recruited. 

 

You have a point though in the lag between when we have progressed as a club. It's hard to be satisfied with the academy though whilst they've retained the majority of coaches at an older level from when we were a two bit outfit.

A broken clock is right twice a day, so in this sphere, if you are an elite prospect and within the catchment area, and a Leicester fan.... The club would have to do hell of a job for that player to sign for another pro academy! 

 

This doesn't mean everything is rosey at any academy. So academies will produce players because of location and fan loyalty. 

 

There is 100% a lag. Its a 10 year lag. 

 

You can name any successful academy so West ham or Southampton would be historic good examples... But what you see today was done 10 to 12 years ago generally, and half decent coaches and positive experiences will help develop a player. If a club can get 4 out of 5 things right then you could have a collective of top talented players. Like Manchester United historically over the past 20 years, but now they have lost out to Man City locally bacause use of finances and staff. 

[Foxxed]

35 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

 

There is 100% a lag. Its a 10 year lag. 

 

 

So this thread has to start hating people in the past? Unsatisfying.

[Angus Scott]

Soton U23's hammered today by Everton so are relegated. So between us, WHU & Arsenal as to who else goes down. If we win our last 2 games we are definitely safe. Trouble is they are both against Liverpool

[LcFc_Smiv]

7 hours ago, Thefoxman said:

I have 2 boys in the academy and have been there nearly 4 years! Just to let you know the coaches and training is awfull!! 

 

Imagine moving to a 120m training facility and bringing the current group of staff! pointless.

 

Most age groups get beat every week btw.

In what way is it awful?

 

I have no connection to Leicester's academy but I have worked in academy football with numerous people who have been at the club and speak highly of their experiences and dealings with the club. I have also been involved in an academy that has taken many heavy losses over the years and has a large number of players from those squads now involved in the first team setup. I'm not saying you are wrong, and things may be very wrong at the club but I'd love to know what makes it awful unless you feel this isn't the right place to discuss it any further.

[Jimmy]

isn't part of the problem that Jon Rudkin is still the head of the academy, the DoF is still guarding his old turf instead of it being run by someone dedicated to it, rightly Rudkin has to priorities first team issues so he needs to step down from the additional role and be replaced with someone whose sole focus is the academy

[Chocolate Teapot]

Dempsey Arlott John has been released.

[MarriedaLeicesterGirl]

5 hours ago, sacreblueits442 said:

Remembering Rodgers first day he went down to watch the U23s  and he could not have been too impressed with what he had seen.

 

 

I think Thomas is a good example of the issues: No real idea that he was going to step up until he trained with the senior squad, and he only did that because of the Covid emergency. Rodgers would want an academy that would see and develop this talent without him having to do the work himself.

[Ric Flair]

6 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

Dempsey Arlott John has been released.

Was he part of that house party with the Leicester women's team a few months back?

[Ric Flair]

3 hours ago, Kilworthfox said:

A broken clock is right twice a day, so in this sphere, if you are an elite prospect and within the catchment area, and a Leicester fan.... The club would have to do hell of a job for that player to sign for another pro academy! 

 

This doesn't mean everything is rosey at any academy. So academies will produce players because of location and fan loyalty. 

 

There is 100% a lag. Its a 10 year lag. 

 

You can name any successful academy so West ham or Southampton would be historic good examples... But what you see today was done 10 to 12 years ago generally, and half decent coaches and positive experiences will help develop a player. If a club can get 4 out of 5 things right then you could have a collective of top talented players. Like Manchester United historically over the past 20 years, but now they have lost out to Man City locally bacause use of finances and staff. 

Absolutely nothing preventing us in the last 6 years from taking the very best 11-16 year olds in the Midlands. I know many are settled at other academies but it happens up and down the country every season. This lag hasn't been helped by our desire to improve things across the board.

 

The academy has been way down the list of priorities. Fair enough but it isn't mutually exclusive with the first team and could and should have been looked at earlier. The change to the transfer rules due to Brexit has been coming for years and yet the club opted to do very little about that as well.