England v Germany Tues 29/06/21 17:00 Wembley

[Babylon]

7 minutes ago, sheffield_fox said:

No. That's my exact point. 

 

I totally get what you're saying and I was thinking that before the game. But I've changed my mind after watching that. 

 

It's not just Southgate making the plan is it? It's the whole coaching staff together. They've got a plan that they think can get us through the tournament. And it's working. 

 

It's not dissimilar to the second half of our title winning season. Stay tight and wait for a bit of luck. If you concede any chances, hopefully they're low quality ones. 

 

Shit house basically. If you really can't enjoy watching England progress that way then that's a shame. I love it and I think it's a more likely way of winning these games than going hyper aggressive.

 

The majority of people seem to be dead set on moaning about Southgates tactics. I think they're brave. He knew that by setting up that way yesterday he'd get absolutely ****ing slated if we lost. Setting up aggressively would have been an easier option. Why get sucked into a dick measuring contest when you've already got the biggest balls?

But that’s it isn’t it, we are trying to shit house it with a vast array of attacking talent that’s not usually available to teams that try and shit house games. 
 

I actually think we’ve got a decent defence as well when all fit. So other than not being sure about the two in the middle of the park, I’m not sure why he’s choosing to shit house it. 

[Guest ttfn]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

He's a really likeable man that gives footballers in general a good name. As a human being there's very little to dislike. 

 

But he's still an extremely poor manager who's doing very little with an exceptionally talented generation of players. 

 

Football fans are very bad at separating the artist from their work and visa versa, hate is thrown at people because of what they represent, usually very unfairly. The passion with which people dislike Southgate is a product of that, for sure. 

 

But criticisms of him as a manager are still valid and defending him by pointing out he's been successful in the euros and the world cup beyond any other manager, without wanting to look at the context of those campaigns, is silly. 

 

He beat Tunisia, Panama, Colombia and Sweden at the last World Cup playing largely awful football and lost three games to the only two decent European sides he faced, yet came home a vindicated hero in the eyes of his defenders based entirely arbitrarily on the specific round he reached like that alone is the achievement. 

 

Now he's beaten an extremely sub standard German side (after a massively uninspiring group stage), largely considered to be in major decline with a manager near universally accepted to have overstayed his welcome in the job. With a striker playing in England that people have spent the whole year laughing at for his awful form. 

 

And you can see what's coming a mile off, you're going to waltz in to the final by comfortably dispatching a poor Ukraine and likely a hard working but ultimately inferior Denmark and he's going to be celebrated as a hero again even if you're stuffed by Italy or Belgium. 

 

You compare him to previous England managers but who of them could hope to have had his luck in knock out opponents? And even then, comparing him to Hodgson, Allardyce and Mclaren is a hilariously low bar. 

 

I think the luck of the draw is often forgotten in England’s poor tournament history.

 

In 1998 we had a good squad but would have had to have beaten a very good Argentina, Netherlands and Brazil to get to the final.

 

In 2002 we were luckier as everyone good got knocked out…except Brazil who we met quite early (QF). We were one of the two best sides left in the tournament at that point.

 

In 2004 we played the hosts in the QF. Again I think we were probably one of the 2 best sides left in the tournament at that stage (although no doubt Greece would have done for us).

 

In 2008 we didn’t qualify but the teams who did from our group were Russia who reached the semis and Croatia who were a minute of madness away from reaching the semis. That was probably the best squad of my lifetime though, so absolutely no excuses for not qualifying, just a bit of context.

 

2014 was awful but we had a stinker of a group. Even Costa Rica were penalties away from the semi final.

 

England have got noticeably better at penalties under Southgate (he says tempting fate) but even that is another example of where Southgate’s England have been on the right side of fine margins. Joe Hart doesn’t act like a clown and Roy Hodgson could have had us in a Euro semi final.

 

It would be churlish to say that he’s doing anything other than a very good job because ultimately what people care about is staying in tournaments as long as possible and Southgate has done that better than anybody else in recent memory. But there is definitely a narrative that “the ends justify the means” when there is nothing to say that we wouldn’t have been similarly/more successful with a more adventurous style. Certainly it’s hard to imagine a clamour for Southgate as a future Leicester manager. But he’s getting results and as long as he does that I and others will be happy enough: days like yesterday won’t come around very often.

 

 

[Duncan_K]

2 minutes ago, ttfn said:

I think the luck of the draw is often forgotten in England’s poor tournament history.

 

In 1998 we had a good squad but would have had to have beaten a very good Argentina, Netherlands and Brazil to get to the final.

 

In 2002 we were luckier as everyone good got knocked out…except Brazil who we met quite early (QF). We were one of the two best sides left in the tournament at that point.

 

In 2004 we played the hosts in the QF. Again I think we were probably one of the 2 best sides left in the tournament at that stage (although no doubt Greece would have done for us).

 

In 2008 we didn’t qualify but the teams who did from our group were Russia who reached the semis and Croatia who were a minute of madness away from reaching the semis. That was probably the best squad of my lifetime though, so absolutely no excuses for not qualifying, just a bit of context.

 

2014 was awful but we had a stinker of a group. Even Costa Rica were penalties away from the semi final.

 

England have got noticeably better at penalties under Southgate (he says tempting fate) but even that is another example of where Southgate’s England have been on the right side of fine margins. Joe Hart doesn’t act like a clown and Roy Hodgson could have had us in a Euro semi final.

 

It would be churlish to say that he’s doing anything other than a very good job because ultimately what people care about is staying in tournaments as long as possible and Southgate has done that better than anybody else in recent memory. But there is definitely a narrative that “the ends justify the means” when there is nothing to say that we wouldn’t have been similarly/more successful with a more adventurous style. Certainly it’s hard to imagine a clamour for Southgate as a future Leicester manager. But he’s getting results and as long as he does that I and others will be happy enough: days like yesterday won’t come around very often.

 

 

All fair. I'd rather have a lucky manager than a good one. There's some things he does well in terms of challenging the 'same old England' mindset, i find him unconvincing but it's churlish not to enjoy nights like yesterday as an England fan. 

[BenTheFox]

I'm quite biased towards Southgate because I like the guy and he managed to get me interested in the national team again having been left so disenfranchised by Capello and Hodgson. 

 

I do think that people are massively overstating how poor this Germany side are. They still have some very good players with the likes of Goretzka, Kimmich, Kroos, Havertz etc. Some of you are making out like we beat the dog and duck, not a team with several champions league winners. 

[Col city fan]

4 minutes ago, BenTheFox said:

I'm quite biased towards Southgate because I like the guy and he managed to get me interested in the national team again having been left so disenfranchised by Capello and Hodgson. 

 

I do think that people are massively overstating how poor this Germany side are. They still have some very good players with the likes of Goretzka, Kimmich, Kroos, Havertz etc. Some of you are making out like we beat the dog and duck, not a team with several champions league winners. 

The Dog and Duck

Again though, I think this seems to be a peculiarly English thing. To not just be happy that we beat one of the top nations in World football, but to denigrate it to ‘well we only beat an ageing side’

You’re right... the Germans ain’t wot they used to be... but they still contain some bloody good players and we limited them to very very few chances.

It’s a very glass half empty way of looking at things, epitomised by @Daggerspost above... one of the most miserable offerings I’ve read on here in ages.

Edited 30 June 2021 by Col city fan

[Babylon]

7 minutes ago, BenTheFox said:

I'm quite biased towards Southgate because I like the guy and he managed to get me interested in the national team again having been left so disenfranchised by Capello and Hodgson. 

 

I do think that people are massively overstating how poor this Germany side are. They still have some very good players with the likes of Goretzka, Kimmich, Kroos, Havertz etc. Some of you are making out like we beat the dog and duck, not a team with several champions league winners. 

Their results in 20/21 speak for themselves, they might have some good players but they've been naff far too much. 

[sheffield_fox]

33 minutes ago, Babylon said:

But that’s it isn’t it, we are trying to shit house it with a vast array of attacking talent that’s not usually available to teams that try and shit house games. 
 

I actually think we’ve got a decent defence as well when all fit. So other than not being sure about the two in the middle of the park, I’m not sure why he’s choosing to shit house it. 

I know it's hard to imagine but maybe, just maybe, the England coaching staff know more about football tactics than you. 😂😂😂

[Babylon]

2 minutes ago, sheffield_fox said:

I know it's hard to imagine but maybe, just maybe, the England coaching staff know more about football tactics than you. 😂😂😂

Well we might as well close down the forum if the coaching staff are always right and we can't offer an opinion on it. 

Edited 30 June 2021 by Babylon

[KrefelderFox666]

9 minutes ago, BenTheFox said:

I'm quite biased towards Southgate because I like the guy and he managed to get me interested in the national team again having been left so disenfranchised by Capello and Hodgson. 

 

I do think that people are massively overstating how poor this Germany side are. They still have some very good players with the likes of Goretzka, Kimmich, Kroos, Havertz etc. Some of you are making out like we beat the dog and duck, not a team with several champions league winners. 

Kimmich was played out of position, Goretzka was injured for the majority of the games, Kroos is past his best. Havertz had a great tournament and Gosens was good until he got man marked and taken out of the game. Hummels was also fairly solid.

 

Other than that, not much quality and sub par performances. As Babylon says, 20/21 results and how matches unfolded speak for themselves.

 

As I said above though, teams still need to be beaten and England did their job.

[Babylon]

Just so people know, it's perfectly acceptable to be happy we won, thrilled in fact. But to also feel a bit meh about the dross we served up the majority of the game.

 

It's acceptable to be happy we beat a team who could be a tricky opponent, but also realise they lost to North F****** Macedonia recently and aren't at their best. 

 

It's acceptable to think Southgate is doing an alright job and is a nice bloke, but to also feel he is overly cautious as a manager and not really making the most of the talent he has in terms of performances. 

[Col city fan]

5 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Just so people know, it's perfectly acceptable to be happy we won, thrilled in fact. But to also feel a bit meh about the dross we served up the majority of the game.

 

It's acceptable to be happy we beat a team who could be a tricky opponent, but also realise they lost to North F****** Macedonia recently and aren't at their best. 

 

It's acceptable to think Southgate is doing an alright job and is a nice bloke, but to also feel he is overly cautious as a manager and not really making the most of the talent he has in terms of performances. 

Bloody fence-sitter

[The boy Linacre]

58 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

A game which has had the revisionist treatment cos Netherlands missed a hat-full of chances. Euro 96 bar that game and thirty minutes against Scotland was very similar to now. Poor in the opening game, poor for a hour v Scotland until a couple of subs and couldn't break down a very average Spain team 

Still made the semi's and tbf think we were probably the better team in the semi's, and we beat Scotland 2-0 which we didn't this time.

But Tel did consistently play McManaman, Gascgoigne, Anderton, Sheringham & Shearer perhaps slightly more attacking that this squad!!!

 

Also think of the "results" since the golden generation left, Poor & Limited 2012 vs Italy, 2014 bottom of the group, 2016 1 win vs Wales.

With the advantage of playing 6 games at Wembley and the players, this side should make the last 4 in this tournament, just would be more pleasurable if he was more positive in his set up, but its a results game.

 

[The boy Linacre]

17 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Just so people know, it's perfectly acceptable to be happy we won, thrilled in fact. But to also feel a bit meh about the dross we served up the majority of the game.

 

It's acceptable to be happy we beat a team who could be a tricky opponent, but also realise they lost to North F****** Macedonia recently and aren't at their best. 

 

It's acceptable to think Southgate is doing an alright job and is a nice bloke, but to also feel he is overly cautious as a manager and not really making the most of the talent he has in terms of performances. 

I think you have it in a nutshell there for a good 75% of the England fans currently. 

 

[Leicester_Loyal]

Might have been said previously (I can't be arsed to trawl through 49 pages), but Pickford looks a totally different keeper for England than he does for Everton, weird.

[Babylon]

1 minute ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Might have been said previously (I can't be arsed to trawl through 49 pages), but Pickford looks a totally different keeper for England than he does for Everton, weird.

Probably something to do with not having to play in front of their sad sack fans 

[RonnieTodger]

Jesus what a load of miserable toss. 

 

I whinged like a lot of people at our starting XI, but we won. So what if Muller missed a sitter? We won.

I'm no fan of Southgate, but if you slag him off when we don't win, he deserves some credit for getting that result.

 

The first 60 mins were boring, but how bad were we to watch at Man City and Arsenal before we got the wins? Wembley looked rocking and we've put Germany out. 

 

Lighten up.

[BenTheFox]

One thing is for certain, I would not want to be the England manager. Southgate gets criticised when we beat teams that we should be beating and is now being criticised for 'not playing our best players'. It's funny because Sven used to be criticised for trying to fit all our best players into the team and not sacrificing one or too. People call Southgate's approach cowardly when for me it's anything but. He picked a side yesterday that was not popular and he openly said that had he lost with that team he'd be dead. That shows real bottle and courage to stick by what you think is right and not cave into media and fan pressure. 

[Duncan_K]

8 minutes ago, BenTheFox said:

One thing is for certain, I would not want to be the England manager. Southgate gets criticised when we beat teams that we should be beating and is now being criticised for 'not playing our best players'. It's funny because Sven used to be criticised for trying to fit all our best players into the team and not sacrificing one or too. People call Southgate's approach cowardly when for me it's anything but. He picked a side yesterday that was not popular and he openly said that had he lost with that team he'd be dead. That shows real bottle and courage to stick by what you think is right and not cave into media and fan pressure. 

Strongly agree, i remember saying that before the game to a friend, it was a brave selection because he put all the pressure on himself.

 

He will now get criticised whatever he does for the next game too. If he changes a winning team and it doesn't work he will be criticised, if he sticks with the same team then people will say he should have gone more attacking. I think he will make 1 to 3 changes for Ukraine. I think Mount in for either Walker or Trippier and a shape change is very likely and then possibly Grealish or Foden for Saka and possibly Henderson for one of the defensive midfielders.

[Tinman]

All of my German contacts have blocked me after last night. My phone is now Hans free.

[BenTheFox]

18 hours ago, tom27111 said:

I'd like us to win, don't get me wrong, but I'm incredibly negative because of basically every tournament since 1986.

 

Cried enough tears over England, not doing it again.

 

And I firmly believe we have the wrong man in charge. Nothing will change my mind about that.

I'd like to know who the right man is though. A lot of people think that the England job is more appealing than it actually is. World class managers are not queuing up to manage England. I mean, they literally interviewed Steve Bruce in 2016 and appointed Sam Allardyce!

[Livid]

I just can't engage with this England side and get on board. It's all very grey.

 

There's no charisma, no flair, no characters, no real starts,  no personality individually or as a team, the manager, the style of play,  I don't feel anything from it.

 

We're winning and would rather have that than losing. I expect us to reach the final of tournament hosted from Baku to London, having played essentially six home games in front of predominantly home crowds.

 

I know it is what it is, but It feels like the dice have been loaded in our favour and it feels tainted. 

[leicsmac]

41 minutes ago, BenTheFox said:

I'd like to know who the right man is though. A lot of people think that the England job is more appealing than it actually is. World class managers are not queuing up to manage England. I mean, they literally interviewed Steve Bruce in 2016 and appointed Sam Allardyce!

I asked this question a while back too.

 

Didn't get an answer, which is telling.

 

NB. As far as the style of football is concerned, I'm about as far from a romantic as can be tbh. What matters is the result to me - nothing more, nothing less. The Corinthian spirit is long dead, when you go out onto a football pitch, you're there to win, no matter how.

[filbertway]

5 hours ago, UniFox21 said:

Just seen the highlights, Sterling appeared to be brilliant in the game with his driving runs. 

Have you got the highlights? I watched BBC's 4 min package and they were on the 1st goal by 1:00

Edited 30 June 2021 by filbertway

[Foxxed]

3 hours ago, Livid said:

I just can't engage with this England side and get on board. It's all very grey.

 

There's no charisma, no flair, no characters, no real starts,  no personality individually or as a team, the manager, the style of play,  I don't feel anything from it.

 

We're winning and would rather have that than losing. I expect us to reach the final of tournament hosted from Baku to London, having played essentially six home games in front of predominantly home crowds.

 

I know it is what it is, but It feels like the dice have been loaded in our favour and it feels tainted. 

This sums up how I feel exactly.
 

We’re Burnley in this tournament despite the fact we have the players to play like Man City, the best draw possible and home advantage.

 

I hope there’s some good attacking football in our next games to create some excitement.

[Hoopla10]

It was a great win. Southgate has to be applauded for navigating the team through a tricky (not convinced it was difficult) fixture. My issue is and has been from the start Kane. Most of the game (until Sterling scored) was me just grumbling about Kane. It's like we're playing with only 10 men for 99% of the game. He got his tap in, but by then the Germans had opened up as they pushed to get an equalizer. He's useless imo. I'd rather we play without a striker entirely than play with him. It wouldn't effect our defense either. Play a false 9. 

 

Hopefully he gets his hat-trick against Ukraine (they're about his level) but honestly him scoring against Germany even annoyed me a little. It made the game safe but after that he 100% plays and nobody questions it. And for the love of god will the BBC stop referring to him as our talisman. He in no way deserves so much idolization and makes it virtually impossible to just sub him like any normal player who's a bit cr@p. Saka goes off after playing well while Kane did f'all and stays on. Plus can we give the captain's armband to one of the actual leaders on the pitch. I'd even be happy to see Maguire captain.