England v Germany Tues 29/06/21 17:00 Wembley

[KrefelderFox666]

43 minutes ago, Daggers said:

The first 60-odd minutes were among the most dire I’ve seen in international football. Dull, tedious and utterly failing - the plan was controlled possession, the reality was anything but. Were it not for Germany being so abysmal, England would’ve been hammered by half time. Yet, thanks to a spark of creativity finally being allowed onto the field, now everyone wants to fellate Southgate? Oh, but it’s the Jeeermans. Dey bombed our chippy. Two world wars and one Robin Koch. Rah rah tossing rah. Negative tactics, bountiful jingoism, and a dash of xenophobia. What a bunch of shithouses. 

That's knockout football. And the tactical setup nullified both teams (which was a good plan from Southgate). No one will hammer England. If they lose, it will be fine margins, like yesterday were fine margins in favour of England (and in fact all group games bar Scotland which again, could have tilted either way).

[Finnegan]

29 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

The relish people take in Southgate failing is very weird and symptomatic of modern football. He’s morally correct. Far better than some Big Sam proven backhand merchant. 
 

Watch Southgate’s post match interview yesterday and if you don’t have a reaction to that, I’d suggest you don’t really get football 

 

He's a really likeable man that gives footballers in general a good name. As a human being there's very little to dislike. 

 

But he's still an extremely poor manager who's doing very little with an exceptionally talented generation of players. 

 

Football fans are very bad at separating the artist from their work and visa versa, hate is thrown at people because of what they represent, usually very unfairly. The passion with which people dislike Southgate is a product of that, for sure. 

 

But criticisms of him as a manager are still valid and defending him by pointing out he's been successful in the euros and the world cup beyond any other manager, without wanting to look at the context of those campaigns, is silly. 

 

He beat Tunisia, Panama, Colombia and Sweden at the last World Cup playing largely awful football and lost three games to the only two decent European sides he faced, yet came home a vindicated hero in the eyes of his defenders based entirely arbitrarily on the specific round he reached like that alone is the achievement. 

 

Now he's beaten an extremely sub standard German side (after a massively uninspiring group stage), largely considered to be in major decline with a manager near universally accepted to have overstayed his welcome in the job. With a striker playing in England that people have spent the whole year laughing at for his awful form. 

 

And you can see what's coming a mile off, you're going to waltz in to the final by comfortably dispatching a poor Ukraine and likely a hard working but ultimately inferior Denmark and he's going to be celebrated as a hero again even if you're stuffed by Italy or Belgium. 

 

You compare him to previous England managers but who of them could hope to have had his luck in knock out opponents? And even then, comparing him to Hodgson, Allardyce and Mclaren is a hilariously low bar. 

 

Edited 30 June 2021 by Finnegan

[Col city fan]

28 minutes ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

We beat Germany in a knockout tournament for the first time since '66 and yet I genuinely didn't feel even a flicker of emotion. Is there something wrong with me? Is it because I don't really like most of the England players? Is it the unimaginative football that Southgate has them playing? Someone help me.

I did personally

I have no feeling for the players particularly but seeing the fans in the stadium getting completely overjoyed when we scored is something I’ve not seen in a very long time.

Jingoism is a very strong word but yes, I felt proud last night to be English. The pride in the nation has gone away for too long. Last night it returned albeit for a short time. Like the style of play or not, what this squad have given us is something to ‘get behind’ again. This feeling has been absent for ages

Its almost seen as being wrong to patriotically suggest that you are proud to be an Englishman. Somehow as if it’s socially incorrect to suggest it? Why?

The Welsh are proud to be Welsh, the Scots too. Why not the English? I don’t get it and never have 

Edited 30 June 2021 by Col city fan

[shen]

7 minutes ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

We beat Germany in a knockout tournament for the first time since '66 and yet I genuinely didn't feel even a flicker of emotion. Is there something wrong with me? Is it because I don't really like most of the England players? Is it the unimaginative football that Southgate has them playing? Someone help me.

If you're a football romantic, then the play style will obviously be paramount.

 

I think if something like the Eriksen episode happened to an English player, there would have been a similar, maybe even stronger effect than what we see in Denmark now.

To me it feels like the English are amazing at rallying themselves when faced with adversity. The fact the Germany match means so much to so many English people says a lot about English culture.

 

I haven't followed the English FA much, but the Danish FA have since the players' strike a few years ago launched a campaign with the motto 'part of something bigger' to repair the damaged image and reignite the passion for the national team. Fewer and fewer fans were attending games and people had grown tired of the old-fashioned ways of the management on and off the field.

The campaign has undoubtedly had an effect, making the players seem much more human and empathetic, bringing them closer to the regular Joe, while the promotion on social media and patriotism has been backed up by good performances on the pitch.

 

So when Eriksen collapsed it was already a pretty raucous fanbase, but the way the players stood together, the empathy shown by the fans present that day, and the raw emotions that staff were showing on camera resulted in an entire nation offering support. The motto 'part of something bigger' has been truly visceral, even if it was something traumatic that ultimately triggered it.

 

That cannot be planned, but the English FA can absolutely use the example to bring the multimillionaires on the pitch closer to the people.

[HighPeakFox]

9 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

I did personally

I have no feeling for the players particularly but seeing the fans in the stadium getting completely overjoyed when we scored is something I’ve not seen in a very long time.

Jingoism is a very strong word but yes, I felt proud last night to be English. The pride in the nation has gone away for too long. Last night it returned albeit for a short time. Like the style of play or not, what this squad have given us is something to ‘get behind’ again. This feeling has been absent for ages

Its almost seen as being wrong to patriotically suggest that you are proud to be an Englishman. Somehow as if it’s socially incorrect to suggest it? Why?

The Welsh are proud to be Welsh, the Scots too. Why not the English? I don’t get it and never have 

You raise interesting points and ask an interesting question. I'm not going to engage, only because it doesn't belong in this thread (and I don't want to derail it anymore than I might already have done) and I don't want some hero to suggest I hate my own country (for clarity, not you Col), but I did want to acknowledge your thoughtful post. It's massively complicated, in my opinion.

[Col city fan]

4 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

You raise interesting points and ask an interesting question. I'm not going to engage, only because it doesn't belong in this thread (and I don't want to derail it anymore than I might already have done) and I don't want some hero to suggest I hate my own country (for clarity, not you Col), but I did want to acknowledge your thoughtful post. It's massively complicated, in my opinion.

Cheers HP

👍

[Babylon]

33 minutes ago, Langston said:

 

Germany have all of a sudden become a team of over-the-hill cloggers after last night's defeat.

The same German team that in 20/21...

 

Lost to France

Lost to England

Drew with Hungary

Drew with Denmark

Lost to North Macedonia

Got battered 6-0 by Spain

Drew with Switzerland 

Drew with Switzerland (again)

Drew with turkey

 

They've been really quite average for a while baring a win over Portugal.

[Finnegan]

46 minutes ago, Langston said:

 

Germany have all of a sudden become a team of over-the-hill cloggers after last night's defeat.

 

Not "all of a sudden", people just didn't want to hear it in advance. It hardly makes for exciting pre match hype to point out both teams are largely crap at the moment and the game would predictably be a dull spectacle for at least an hour or so. 

[UniFox21]

Just seen the highlights, Sterling appeared to be brilliant in the game with his driving runs. 

[KrefelderFox666]

7 minutes ago, Babylon said:

The same German team that in 20/21...

 

Lost to France

Lost to England

Drew with Hungary

Drew with Denmark

Lost to North Macedonia

Got battered 6-0 by Spain

Drew with Switzerland 

Drew with Switzerland (again)

Drew with turkey

 

They've been really quite average for a while baring a win over Portugal.

I can safely say, the past 3 years, Germany have been bang average at best. Underperforming, struggling in front of goal, leaking goals. We have some decent players but generally speaking, lacking some real quality. There are glimpses and there is hope that Hansi Flick can turn us around (Low outstayed his welcome really, as good as he has been in his 15 years). However, I see us as a mid table team now, we are off the pace of the world class teams like England, France, Brazil, Italy, Argentina (just to name a few). We have our work cut out to not fail to qualify for the WC (which is a real possibility if things don't change).

 

However, we could still have one the game yesterday, it was a battle of two teams nullifying each other. FIne margins and credit to England for showing their quality when it mattered and overcoming history. As poor as Germany are, England still had a job to do.

[KrefelderFox666]

4 minutes ago, UniFox21 said:

Just seen the highlights, Sterling appeared to be brilliant in the game with his driving runs. 

This the Sterling that was getting stick before the tournament for being cr4p? He has certainly turned people around with his EURO performances. I would say Southgate has had a big hand in that.

[UniFox21]

Just now, KrefelderFox666 said:

This the Sterling that was getting stick before the tournament for being cr4p? He has certainly turned people around with his EURO performances. I would say Southgate has had a big hand in that.

Because his form had been poor for Man City, he wasn't tearing up any trees or ripping teams to pieces. 

But, since that first goal he's been alive and a real threat. 

[Pliskin]

18 minutes ago, Babylon said:

The same German team that in 20/21...

 

Lost to France

Lost to England

Drew with Hungary

Drew with Denmark

Lost to North Macedonia

Got battered 6-0 by Spain

Drew with Switzerland 

Drew with Switzerland (again)

Drew with turkey

 

They've been really quite average for a while baring a win over Portugal.

It can happen after winning a major tournament. Germany have these spells of being shit, and then all of a sudden they will have a look at their football pyramid, change something, and then win another major tournament a few years later.

 

They’ve been bollocks since they won the World Cup really, just limping from one competition to the next. A lot of the so called top nations are struggling now, as the so called lesser teams are starting to produce better players, most of which find themselves in decent leagues. 
 

France’s arrogance lost them the game against Switzerland, Spain have suffered a fair few years of being ordinary, Netherlands have been crap for a while, Italy vanished of the face of the planet for a while, Brazil have been bobbins since 2002….. the list goes on. 
 

England on the other hand, have had decent teams since 2002…. But the managerial position is a constant issue….. you can’t really suggest that a nation that’s had the players we’ve had for the last few decades have failed because the players don’t like each other. 

 

We have missed out on so many opportunities to win a trophy because we can’t appoint a manager who gets the approach right, they just want nice chaps who will say yes sir…..

Edited 30 June 2021 by Pliskin

[KrefelderFox666]

2 minutes ago, UniFox21 said:

Because his form had been poor for Man City, he wasn't tearing up any trees or ripping teams to pieces. 

But, since that first goal he's been alive and a real threat. 

Some players thrive in a different environment. DIfferent manager, different style of play, different players. Looks like Sterling is not utilised in the same way at Man City (no surprise with the competition).

[The Horse's Mouth]

Gonna be hilarious coming on here if we actually win it hearing "this was a bang average italy team" 

[ClaphamFox]

 

13 minutes ago, Babylon said:

The same German team that in 20/21...

 

Lost to France

Lost to England

Drew with Hungary

Drew with Denmark

Lost to North Macedonia

Got battered 6-0 by Spain

Drew with Switzerland 

Drew with Switzerland (again)

Drew with turkey

 

They've been really quite average for a while baring a win over Portugal.

Irrespective of how average Germany have been for a while, last night was the kind of game that England would usually lose. Our record against major football nations at the knockout stage of major tournaments is horrendous. So merely winning the game was a departure from the pattern of the past 55 years. It may not have been as stylish or swashbuckling as some people would like, but it was a gutsy, disciplined performance that included two very stylish goals.

 

Obviously, some people will moan anyway. That will never change. If we manage to win the whole thing, you can be sure that a certain group of English people will be on social media the following morning trying to bring everybody down by saying how lucky we were and that we only won it because everybody else was crap. Such people have always been around - George Orwell wrote scornfully of them back in the 1930s. It doesn't matter. Those of us who can enjoy an England win for what it is have much more fun.

[egg_fried_rice]

I think people miss a point about a national team's progression.

 

It's extremely rare for a team to go from being perennial no-marks and underachievers, to consistent challengers at the deep end of international tournaments. It takes slow and steady improvements. What right do we have as supporters to expect us to go from round of 16 wannabes - for the best part of 60 years! -  to free flowing world beaters? You may think it's a low bar, but that's because it is - and that is not Southgate's fault.

 

He's a great statesman and he's not an amazing manager. But, this England team is performing better in tournaments than they ever have in my lifetime. That's progress.

[Langston]

24 minutes ago, Babylon said:

The same German team that in 20/21...

 

Lost to France

Lost to England

Drew with Hungary

Drew with Denmark

Lost to North Macedonia

Got battered 6-0 by Spain

Drew with Switzerland 

Drew with Switzerland (again)

Drew with turkey

 

They've been really quite average for a while baring a win over Portugal.

 

16 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Not "all of a sudden", people just didn't want to hear it in advance. It hardly makes for exciting pre match hype to point out both teams are largely crap at the moment and the game would predictably be a dull spectacle for at least an hour or so. 

 

That's fair - probably more an indictment on the standard of international football but you'd still have them as one of a handful of favourites, surely?

 

I just don't understand this nagging obsession with an odd selection of England fans (I appreciate you're not one, @Finnegan!) that everything needs a caveat with it. 

 

If we win the thing, does every game need an asterisk next to it explaining how we won in spite of ourselves? Easy route, Germany not the best, didn't score enough...

 

I have reservations about Southgate but if you spend more time moaning about last night than enjoying it I feel a bit sorry for you. Its possible to buzz off the back of our arguably our "best" knock out win since '66 but not think we can now play with our dicks out for the rest of the tournament.

[The boy Linacre]

9 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

It can happen after winning a major tournament. Germany have these spells of being shit, and then all of a sudden they will have a look at their football pyramid, change something, and then win another major tournament a few years later.

 

They’ve been bollocks since they won the World Cup really, just limping from one competition to the next. A lot of the so called top nations are struggling now, as the so called lesser teams are starting to produce better players, most of which find themselves in decent leagues. 
 

France’s arrogance lost them the game against Switzerland, Spain have suffered a fair few years of being ordinary, Netherlands have been crap for a while, Italy vanished of the face of the planet for a while, Brazil have been bobbins since 2002….. the list goes on. 
 

England on the other hand, have had decent teams since 2002…. But the managerial position is a constant issue….. you can’t really suggest that a nation that’s had the players we’ve had for the last few decades have failed because the players don’t like each other. 

 

We have missed out on so many opportunities to win a trophy because we can’t appoint a manager who gets the approach right, they just want nice chaps who will say yes sir…..

Last England manager who got the players to play ABOVE their level was El Tel & then they blew him out due to impending court case.

I thought the picks last night were horrendous BUT he’s buried another long standing issue, penalties in 2018 & Germany now.

We can make the final & that would be a result & be 50/50.  
We can also win BUT would like to see a Holland 4-1 96 performance in 1 game!!!

[ClaphamFox]

2 minutes ago, The boy Linacre said:

Last England manager who got the players to play ABOVE their level was El Tel & then they blew him out due to impending court case.

I thought the picks last night were horrendous BUT he’s buried another long standing issue, penalties in 2018 & Germany now.

We can make the final & that would be a result & be 50/50.  
We can also win BUT would like to see a Holland 4-1 96 performance in 1 game!!!

We also had a very good team in '98, but Beckham's red card ended that tournament. Hoddle was a good coach and built on the more stylish, possession-based football that Venables had introduced, but like Venables he was pushed out for non-football reasons. Kevin Keegan came in and we immediately went back to playing two banks of four and thinking that pride and passion would somehow get us through. It didn't.

 

I would like to think that we'll play more expansively on Saturday and - if we get through - in the semi-final. However if we're playing Belgium, Italy or Spain in the final I think it will be cagey as hell. 

[KrefelderFox666]

19 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

 

Irrespective of how average Germany have been for a while, last night was the kind of game that England would usually lose. Our record against major football nations at the knockout stage of major tournaments is horrendous. So merely winning the game was a departure from the pattern of the past 55 years. It may not have been as stylish or swashbuckling as some people would like, but it was a gutsy, disciplined performance that included two very stylish goals.

 

Obviously, some people will moan anyway. That will never change. If we manage to win the whole thing, you can be sure that a certain group of English people will be on social media the following morning trying to bring everybody down by saying how lucky we were and that we only won it because everybody else was crap. Such people have always been around - George Orwell wrote scornfully of them back in the 1930s. It doesn't matter. Those of us who can enjoy an England win for what it is have much more fun.

I can tell you that the majority of those in attendance yesterday did just that.

[sheffield_fox]

12 hours ago, Pliskin said:

But aren’t you worried about potentially coming up against a side that will take the game by the balls, and end up a couple of goals up? 
 

The cautious approach is all well and good, but normally if it’s your best option. For England it isn’t, there’s no reason with the talent in this squad that we can’t attack? 
 

There is so much pace in the squad, a capable forward thinking players, and the defence isn’t bad, with just Rice sat in front of Maguire and Shaw I don’t think they’re susceptible to a counter. 
 

This is the best chance England have had of winning a competition, and I genuinely believe that we can be more aggressive, progressive and not compromise our defensive structure. 
 

I get Gareth wants to be cautious, but sometimes the braver prosper. And we certainly have the minerals to go with a bit more gusto. 

No. That's my exact point. 

 

I totally get what you're saying and I was thinking that before the game. But I've changed my mind after watching that. 

 

It's not just Southgate making the plan is it? It's the whole coaching staff together. They've got a plan that they think can get us through the tournament. And it's working. 

 

It's not dissimilar to the second half of our title winning season. Stay tight and wait for a bit of luck. If you concede any chances, hopefully they're low quality ones. 

 

Shit house basically. If you really can't enjoy watching England progress that way then that's a shame. I love it and I think it's a more likely way of winning these games than going hyper aggressive.

 

The majority of people seem to be dead set on moaning about Southgates tactics. I think they're brave. He knew that by setting up that way yesterday he'd get absolutely ****ing slated if we lost. Setting up aggressively would have been an easier option. Why get sucked into a dick measuring contest when you've already got the biggest balls?

[CosbehFox]

12 minutes ago, The boy Linacre said:

Last England manager who got the players to play ABOVE their level was El Tel & then they blew him out due to impending court case.

I thought the picks last night were horrendous BUT he’s buried another long standing issue, penalties in 2018 & Germany now.

We can make the final & that would be a result & be 50/50.  
We can also win BUT would like to see a Holland 4-1 96 performance in 1 game!!!

A game which has had the revisionist treatment cos Netherlands missed a hat-full of chances. Euro 96 bar that game and thirty minutes against Scotland was very similar to now. Poor in the opening game, poor for a hour v Scotland until a couple of subs and couldn't break down a very average Spain team 

[Babylon]

25 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

 

Irrespective of how average Germany have been for a while, last night was the kind of game that England would usually lose. Our record against major football nations at the knockout stage of major tournaments is horrendous. So merely winning the game was a departure from the pattern of the past 55 years. It may not have been as stylish or swashbuckling as some people would like, but it was a gutsy, disciplined performance that included two very stylish goals.

 

Obviously, some people will moan anyway. That will never change. If we manage to win the whole thing, you can be sure that a certain group of English people will be on social media the following morning trying to bring everybody down by saying how lucky we were and that we only won it because everybody else was crap. Such people have always been around - George Orwell wrote scornfully of them back in the 1930s. It doesn't matter. Those of us who can enjoy an England win for what it is have much more fun.

It was a good win in the end, I’m just pointing out it’s not revisionism to suggest that Germany ain’t all that when their recent recents clearly show they are pretty average.

 

[KrefelderFox666]

19 minutes ago, egg_fried_rice said:

I think people miss a point about a national team's progression.

 

It's extremely rare for a team to go from being perennial no-marks and underachievers, to consistent challengers at the deep end of international tournaments. It takes slow and steady improvements. What right do we have as supporters to expect us to go from round of 16 wannabes - for the best part of 60 years! -  to free flowing world beaters? You may think it's a low bar, but that's because it is - and that is not Southgate's fault.

 

He's a great statesman and he's not an amazing manager. But, this England team is performing better in tournaments than they ever have in my lifetime. That's progress.

I will give you a comparison to Germany's team. The first rebuild happened after 2004 when Klinsmann came in (assisted by Low). On the back of a group stage exit at EURO 2004 (including a dour 0-0 against Latvia). The progression went like this:

 

2006 WC Semi-Final

2008 EURO FInal (1-0 loss to Spain)

2010 WC Semi-Final

2012 EURO Semi-FInal

2014 World Champions

2016 EURO Semi-FInal

 

Then the end of the era and a bit of a rebuild (still work in progress).

 

Now, obviously every team is different and there is no proven pattern but England are making good progress and could follow the above (or similar). As you say, it is all about progression. This current England generation is not at their peak yet. However, it's probably a bit of a shame because the competition is weaker than previously (both at the last WC and now). Who knows who will compete with England over the next 10 years. Italy could become a driving force, Brazil could be on another generation. There are just so many fine details when it comes to big tournaments that cannot be easily influenced. Progression is key and building an identity and a strong team. The last thing you want is to massively change players/tactics at every tournament.