Tackling racism on social media

[KFS]

If you’re going after a knee and not focusing on the root of the problem then you’re part of the problem, sorry. 
 

Going after the gesture is an easy way to show everyone that you can’t be bothered to go that step further to understand the reason why someone would be moved to do it.

 

Sometimes our country over complicates things like this massively. 

[Guest Mickyblueeyes]

1 hour ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

So you are under the miscomception that taking the knee works. It does not, and that is what I am saying. If you wish to believe that, then you are a fool. Why do I need to provide an alternative? I am merely stating what I see as a fact, or do you not understand your own language. 

Has taking the knee got people talking about the issue ? Has it got people like you annoyed and screaming at your TV saying "how dare they" and pointing that finger at those players saying "everything is fine" because it doesnt effect me? Has it got people to debate and raised awareness of the issue at hand ? Has it got the PM to finally discuss it at PMQs ?

 

Basically has it got things moving ? Yes, so no my friend, it hasnt failed. Its played a part in the process for change. Change doesnt come about over night. It takes time. A moment in any change movement doesnt have to be so disruptive that it works almost immediately, it just needs to keep annoying/raising the issue for things to get fixed. 

 

I'm glad it annoys you. 

[yorkie1999]

37 minutes ago, bennytwohats said:

I think that would be reasonable if he was adding something to the debate as an alternative. But so far there are two people making it known they think the gesture is bad, getting defensive when being offered the chance to suggest an alternative and then derailing the conversation into tit for tat and away from the actual issue we are trying to discuss. It doesn't come across like they care about the underlying issue as much as some others in this thread.

 

If someone genuinely cared about racism, but had an issue with the gesture, I presume there would be an acceptance that it might not be perfect but the cause is still worth fighting. Not offering a better suggestion, but not wanting players to take the knee... well that suggests people just want to problem to go away (i.e. not be fixed), doesn't it?

 

Personally i don't like footballers taking the knee, that's nothing to do with racism because i don't really care what colour someone is, I just can't be doing with a gesture that is symoblic of the BLM movement which is more to do with racial tensions and problems in America than anything else and i honestly thought that the UK was getting over it's racial problems from the later half of the last century and  I've always thought that it's time that solves prejudices , basically because people die, and their prejudices die with them, so maybe in another 20 years, racism in this country would have been part of our history. All this taking the knee stuff seems to have done is re-ignited the dying flames and put us back 30 years and the message now appears to be  "if you're not with us, then you're against us", "if you don't agree with footballers taking the knee, you're a racist"  is not right, in fact it's downright disgusting to someone who has never been racist in their life.  Maybe i'm being naive to what it's actually like out there in the wide world,maybe there are gangs of white supremisists setting fire to crosses in the UK, although i somehow doubt it,  but the only real life situations that i can relate to are places like the football, and you've got to be pretty dumb to think that racism is a problem at the KP.    

[Daggers]

1 hour ago, bennytwohats said:

I think that would be reasonable if he was adding something to the debate as an alternative. But so far there are two people making it known they think the gesture is bad, getting defensive when being offered the chance to suggest an alternative and then derailing the conversation into tit for tat and away from the actual issue we are trying to discuss. It doesn't come across like they care about the underlying issue as much as some others in this thread.

 

If someone genuinely cared about racism, but had an issue with the gesture, I presume there would be an acceptance that it might not be perfect but the cause is still worth fighting. Not offering a better suggestion, but not wanting players to take the knee... well that suggests people just want to problem to go away (i.e. not be fixed), doesn't it?

 

Absolutely. They ought to realise that nobody is better placed to offer up solutions to racism than a gaggle of reactionary angry white blokes. It's their real-world experience of these issues and personal hurty feels that should be at the forefront of any discussion on the matter.

 

I am quite taken by the whole "People should shut up banging on about it" though. I think that approach might have legs and I'd be overjoyed to see it elaborated upon in future posts.

 

FWIW, I also have two imaginary black friends. You wouldn't know them though, they live in a different country.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Personally i don't like footballers taking the knee, that's nothing to do with racism because i don't really care what colour someone is, I just can't be doing with a gesture that is symoblic of the BLM movement which is more to do with racial tensions and problems in America than anything else and i honestly thought that the UK was getting over it's racial problems from the later half of the last century and  I've always thought that it's time that solves prejudices , basically because people die, and their prejudices die with them, so maybe in another 20 years, racism in this country would have been part of our history. All this taking the knee stuff seems to have done is re-ignited the dying flames and put us back 30 years and the message now appears to be  "if you're not with us, then you're against us", "if you don't agree with footballers taking the knee, you're a racist"  is not right, in fact it's downright disgusting to someone who has never been racist in their life.  Maybe i'm being naive to what it's actually like out there in the wide world,maybe there are gangs of white supremisists setting fire to crosses in the UK, although i somehow doubt it,  but the only real life situations that i can relate to are places like the football, and you've got to be pretty dumb to think that racism is a problem at the KP.    

What do you think a black person being racially abused would make of your idea that the best way to combat the issue is just to wait until the person abusing them dies?

 

The people actually doing the gesture have also made it quite clear that it's an anti-discrimination gesture and not one being performed in supported of the BLM organisation. 

[Daggers]

14 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Personally i don't like footballers taking the knee, that's nothing to do with racism because i don't really care what colour someone is, I just can't be doing with a gesture that is symoblic of the BLM movement

The same could be said about waving the Cross of St George. It's become intrinsically linked to knuckle-dragging, lager swilling, wife beating scum. Do you advocate dropping the flag because of its associations despite it also being something used by a vast majority who don't buy into that ideal?

[Daggers]

As an aside, I hope we all come together and beat this racism thing swiftly as I currently type everything online while on one knee and, frankly, it's starting to give me a bit of gyp. 

[HighPeakFox]

Waiting for death is not the answer. Prejudices get passed down like rites of passage, ignorance likewise. 

 

People just don't want their ignorances challenged, and twas ever thus. And I find it ironic that the most offensive behaving people are also the most easily offended. 

[leicesterlad1989]

14 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Personally i don't like footballers taking the knee, that's nothing to do with racism because i don't really care what colour someone is, I just can't be doing with a gesture that is symoblic of the BLM movement which is more to do with racial tensions and problems in America than anything else and i honestly thought that the UK was getting over it's racial problems from the later half of the last century and  I've always thought that it's time that solves prejudices , basically because people die, and their prejudices die with them, so maybe in another 20 years, racism in this country would have been part of our history. All this taking the knee stuff seems to have done is re-ignited the dying flames and put us back 30 years and the message now appears to be  "if you're not with us, then you're against us", "if you don't agree with footballers taking the knee, you're a racist"  is not right, in fact it's downright disgusting to someone who has never been racist in their life.  Maybe i'm being naive to what it's actually like out there in the wide world,maybe there are gangs of white supremisists setting fire to crosses in the UK, although i somehow doubt it,  but the only real life situations that i can relate to are places like the football, and you've got to be pretty dumb to think that racism is a problem at the KP.    

What a terrible take on the whole situation. The bit in bold probably sums your whole statement up nicely.

 

 

[bovril]

1 hour ago, HighPeakFox said:

There's a huge problem in this country, and it's been the case my entire life. At both ends of society, there is distrust and contempt for good education, and it gets 'justified' by screaming 'woke', 'bloody lefties' and other such nonsense. 

 

Essentially, decent education is rejected by those convinced they know better and determined not to learn. 

Totally agree with this. 

 

Are cursed by our relatively good standard of living, and coming from a historically dominant country? In other countries I've lived in there seems to be so much more of a drive to improve oneself and society. Here there is a kind of nihilism. 

Edited 14 July 2021 by bovril

[Unabomber]

5 minutes ago, Guest said:

What do you think a black person being racially abused would make of your idea that the best way to combat the issue is just to wait until the person abusing them dies?

 

The people actually doing the gesture have also made it quite clear that it's an anti-discrimination gesture and not one being performed in supported of the BLM organisation. 

This is what I don’t get. How many times have they said it is in no way associated with BLM. I believe those that make that point are doing so because they want to link the two separate messages. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Daggers said:

As an aside, I hope we all come together and beat this racism thing swiftly as I currently type everything online while on one knee and, frankly, it's starting to give me a bit of gyp. 

Look on the bright side - you won't need to worry about typing anything online when Marcus Rashford and his Marxist co-conspirators rise to power and come to seize all your possessions

[Daggers]

5 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

Waiting for death is not the answer. Prejudices get passed down like rites of passage, ignorance likewise. 

 

People just don't want their ignorances challenged, and twas ever thus. And I find it ironic that the most offensive behaving people are also the most easily offended. 

How dare you say I'm easily offended. 

 

*blocked*

[what?]

Do people get that the focus on taking the knee or statues or whatever other empty gesture is at the centre of the media cycle this week isn't coming from the actual movements themselves? If you're somebody who thinks of themselves as against racism but these acts have turned you off whatever group or movement perpetrated them then you've fallen for the exact idealistic trap the ruling class wants you to fall for. The media selects the framing of these stories in order to move the conversation away from the actual material conditions relevant to whatever the issue is and block the potential for change.

 

I don't particularly like statues of long dead colonisers and I'm ambivalent about footballers taking the knee but neither has any material effect on policy or the lives of marginalised people. That's what campaigners and activists want to be focusing on but the media forces the culture war angle and you end up wasting time debating the merits of gestures. It's a ploy to divide us further. Most people engaged in these arguments don't even have a decent grasp on what racism is, letalone an understanding of colonialism, but the opportunity for education and solidarity is lost because of the media outrage generator. 

[KansasFox]

8 minutes ago, Daggers said:

As an aside, I hope we all come together and beat this racism thing swiftly as I currently type everything online while on one knee and, frankly, it's starting to give me a bit of gyp. 

Just a question, but is "a bit of gyp" a racial slur against the gypsy community.  I think it comes from the idea of them causing annoyance.

Not digging you out, I just wonder.  There are many things like this we are un aware of.  I certainly think it has that connotation when used as having 'been gypped'. 

[Guest bennytwohats]

33 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Personally i don't like footballers taking the knee, that's nothing to do with racism because i don't really care what colour someone is, I just can't be doing with a gesture that is symoblic of the BLM movement which is more to do with racial tensions and problems in America than anything else and i honestly thought that the UK was getting over it's racial problems from the later half of the last century and  I've always thought that it's time that solves prejudices , basically because people die, and their prejudices die with them, so maybe in another 20 years, racism in this country would have been part of our history. All this taking the knee stuff seems to have done is re-ignited the dying flames and put us back 30 years and the message now appears to be  "if you're not with us, then you're against us", "if you don't agree with footballers taking the knee, you're a racist"  is not right, in fact it's downright disgusting to someone who has never been racist in their life.  Maybe i'm being naive to what it's actually like out there in the wide world,maybe there are gangs of white supremisists setting fire to crosses in the UK, although i somehow doubt it,  but the only real life situations that i can relate to are places like the football, and you've got to be pretty dumb to think that racism is a problem at the KP.    

Just to be absolutely clear - this isn't what I'm saying. I think a big issue we have in society at the moment is the lack of nuance and space between the extremes to hold views that don't adhere to either end of the spectrum, and I think the same applies here. People like Wilf Zaha don't support the gesture and that's fine. But to me there is a big difference between not supporting the gesture and still supporting the underlying cause, and booing the gesture. What I've taken issue with above is not people saying they don't support the gesture - it's the lack of willingness to further the conversation and the attempts to derail the conversation into petty squabbles - now that's the nuance to what I'm trying to say, hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.

 

One other thing I'd say is that the BLM/American origin are frequently mentioned as reasons not to support the gesture. I think Gareth Southgate has clarified perfectly well that the gesture isn't supporting BLM, but it's 'a show of solidarity with the Black community, including members of our squad who themselves continue to suffer abuse on a regular basis.' - the people who are booing, or disagree with the gesture are essentially booing or disagreeing with that quote, not BLM. Now I want to be clear again here that I'm not saying this as a pointed dig at you, but I've noticed there has been a theme of racist people hiding behind the BLM origins as an excuse to 'legitimise' their booing of people taking the knee. That's absolutely not me saying you can't hold those views about BLM and not be racist (i.e. I'm not trying to suggest you are racist for holding that view), but I have observed people I know to be racist use that as a smokescreen to defend their actions, i.e. in this case booing people taking the knee. We've seen this for years with things like EDL marches where they try to interview and get tied in knots with the inconsistencies in their views.

 

Again this is just my opinion, but even if you've got different motivations for your actions, but your actions (on the subject of anti racism) are aligned to the racists, you've got to be asking yourself 'is this the side of the debate I want to be on?' - there is a difference between not being a fan of the gesture but applauding anyway, and actively booing it.

 

I also have to point out that there is a huge gulf between not seeing white supremacists marching in the streets and racism not being a problem. You can see the signs of systematic racism at the KP as well as any other walk of life - how many of our execs are black? When was the last time we had a black manager? When did you last see a black referee at one of our games? How welcoming are our fans to foreign players compared to the English ones? I've also been to plenty of games and heard comments in the pub or walking to the stadium which are absolutely problematic. So I'm sorry if you think I'm pretty dumb, but these are all the kinds of thing that are absolutely still a problem, and whilst people still think you'd have to be 'dumb' to see these things as racism, to me it's just more proof that there is more work to be done.

Edited 14 July 2021 by bennytwohats

[Koke]

A lot of of people being racist on social media are doing it from foreign countries. Not saying some abuse doesn't stem from these shores but a lot are from other parts of the world. In Italy for example, calling a black person a monkey or ape isn't seen as an abhorrent comment like it is in Britain. 

[foxinsocks]

Views re the  knee has now become entrenched.  We want to have a clear anti racism signal... but I am fed up with having to explain it is not related to BLM.

I am in two minds as if we need a new salute or if to try and distance the knee from BLM.   The recent social media activity show we have a long way to go.  Depressing. The knee thing seems like shifting deck chairs. 

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

1 minute ago, foxinsocks said:

Views re the  knee has now become entrenched.  We want to have a clear anti racism signal... but I am fed up with having to explain it is not related to BLM.

I am in two minds as if we need a new salute or if to try and distance the knee from BLM.   The recent social media activity show we have a long way to go.  Depressing. The knee thing seems like shifting deck chairs. 

https://www.indy100.com/sport/euro-2020-england-knee-racism-b1882097

[walkerleeds]

2 minutes ago, foxinsocks said:

Views re the  knee has now become entrenched.  We want to have a clear anti racism signal... but I am fed up with having to explain it is not related to BLM.

I am in two minds as if we need a new salute or if to try and distance the knee from BLM.   The recent social media activity show we have a long way to go.  Depressing. The knee thing seems like shifting deck chairs. 

 

I think, rightly or wrongly, it'll always be associated with BLM.

[Daggers]

5 minutes ago, KansasFox said:

Just a question, but is "a bit of gyp" a racial slur against the gypsy community.  I think it comes from the idea of them causing annoyance.

Not digging you out, I just wonder.  There are many things like this we are un aware of.  I certainly think it has that connotation when used as having 'been gypped'. 

This is the first I've ever heard that. Clearly the context demonstrates it was not being used as a slur - I think we can all move on and consider the more pressing matter of the lack of fun-sized Mars or disposable BBQ sets at pre-season training.

[Freeman's Wharfer]

8 minutes ago, foxinsocks said:

Views re the  knee has now become entrenched.  We want to have a clear anti racism signal... but I am fed up with having to explain it is not related to BLM.

I am in two minds as if we need a new salute or if to try and distance the knee from BLM.   The recent social media activity show we have a long way to go.  Depressing. The knee thing seems like shifting deck chairs. 

Or we could just have nothing?

 

The players could come out, shake hands and then play a game of football when the whistle sounds. Then when people encounter racism in their daily life they can call it out as and when it happens.

 

Radical idea, I know.

[baldeagle]

Surely this thread  should be in General football chat . 

[foxinsocks]

12 minutes ago, walkerleeds said:

 

I think, rightly or wrongly, it'll always be associated with BLM.

I think you are right.

But given the recent social.media stuff we need something

[Guest Mickyblueeyes]

3 minutes ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

Or we could just have nothing?

 

The players could come out, shake hands and then play a game of football when the whistle sounds. Then when people encounter racism in their daily life they can call it out as and when it happens.

 

Radical idea, I know.

They've been doing that for years. Exactly that. John Barnes kicked a banana. Ian Wright lost his shit when racially abused on the pitch. 

 

People feel there is a need to raise more awareness. Those are people who have suffered racism in their everyday life and people who want to support their mates. Why is it so bad for them to speak out and try and get some unity to stop it all together. Why are people so against that ? I dont understand it. If people feel they've suffered from it, let them speak up, let them express their position. Rather then be reactive, they're aiming to be pro-active and stop it ever occurring. 

 

Racism is not just someone walking up to another and calling them a derogatory term. Its the "I've got two black mates so I'm not racist argument".  Well if they're your mates and they tell you that they've felt prejudiced against, why would you not support them in fighting against those prejudices. Its the same for the guy who walks into someone's office and says, I'm not going to call you by the name your parent gave you so can I call you "Dave" instead. **** off. 

 

There is so much energy to criticise the knee to show the offences come from abroad that it makes you wonder . These multi-millionaire highly successful players feel that the discrimination needs to go. They've decided as a collective unit to display a united act. They want change. Who is anyone to question them on that. Who is anyone to question them on the prejudices they've felt ? Who is anyone to tell those who have been victim to such abuse to carry on as normal ?