Ukraine

[Dahnsouff]

11 minutes ago, MarshallForEngland said:

Firstly, as I have said before, you don't get to curtail my answers to the range of answers you deem are appropriate. Secondly, what have those things go to do with me or my arguments? You have confused my position "it's complicated, there's more to this situation than you might realise" with "Russia has never done anything ever". Ridiculous. How could I know any more about the number of personnel involved than anyone else? The other two things you mentioned are not even connected to what's happening or anything about this discussion, you can't just bring up random new topics and demand that I defend them. 

I have been working with folks, first colleagues, now friends, in Belarus for the last 15 years. Their positions on this current situation are clearly their own, their uniformity of opinion on Russia over these 15 year period, including recently, are however extremely telling, so I feel I do not view this with completely partisan eyes.
 

Although I fully accept that the reality of the invasion is not black and white, and no media should be consumed as gospel, this invasion must be regarded as inexcusable whichever eyes view it.

[Sampson]

21 minutes ago, MarshallForEngland said:

Firstly, as I have said before, you don't get to curtail my answers to the range of answers you deem are appropriate. Secondly, what have those things go to do with me or my arguments? You have confused my position "it's complicated, there's more to this situation than you might realise" with "Russia has never done anything ever". Ridiculous. How could I know any more about the number of personnel involved than anyone else? The other two things you mentioned are not even connected to what's happening or anything about this discussion, you can't just bring up random new topics and demand that I defend them. 

You'd make a great Neville Chamberlain.

You're turning a blind eye to a monumentally unneeded act of aggression against a country of 40 million people and trying to argue "well maybe causing unimaginable suffering on millions upon millions of people was needed... it's too complicated... we don't really know".

Constantly arguing that you don't know whether Russia has really done all these things or you don't know whether all these things are justified in an extremely blatantly obvious invasion with no justification which is even close to causing the unimaginable suffering of millions of people and trying to move the conversation away from concentrating on the unimaginable suffering of a humungous amount of human beings to geopolitics and media coverage is not a position of high-end intelligence and "understanding the bigger picture", it's 100% appeasement and Putin apologism and tacit agreement of the unfathomable act of war and the suffering of millions, it's as simple as that.

Edited 5 March 2022 by Sampson

[Stivo]

Well you need to understand that something changed last week.  
We in the west have put up with putin’s playbook of lies and misdirections for years and we are fed up.
 

Is there a problem in Donbas etc  - yes?  Both sides are guilty of violations.  ( and yes I have seen the ocse reports).
Note that most violations by both sides are live firing exercises and not shelling of the other side,  but of course that can be just as distressing and alarming to the civilian population.

 

Are there some thugs involved on both sides -yes  - have you perhaps heard of the Wagner group?
Was the situation there  engineered in part by Russia - yes

Is the democratically elected Ukraine government fascist - no

Was there any reason to start a war?  Absolutely not

 

did Russia start the war trying to minimise civilian casualties? Yes but their thunder runs to take  Kyiv and decapitate the government failed.

 

 

 

[st albans fox]

And Marshall was never in the frame for a cap ?????

[Countryfox]

People have been banned for all sorts of things on here ..  maybe we ought to add being a subversive Russian spy to the list and get this dickhead off the forum.    

 

 

[casablancas]

Fukcing Chelsea fans. 

[st albans fox]

1 minute ago, casablancas said:

Fukcing Chelsea fans. 

Just saw that - not really surprised ……. once a bunch of racist scumbags, always a bunch etc etc …..

[The Year Of The Fox]

59 minutes ago, Line-X said:

What was that you said earlier - "do you understand the concept of admitting you don't know something?"

 

Really? Ok then.

 

You can keep playing the "living in Russia" card, but your claim that living in Russia affords a more "balanced view" is laughable. And also, how would you know otherwise? You have already displayed a shocking level of ignorance about the media in the UK. You live in the bubble of an autocracy which is sadly fast descending into a dictatorship. 

 

I can assure you that it is. My brother lived in Moscow for three years in the Presnensky District and a close friend of the family that has taught out there for a decade is now desperately attempting to leave the country. Unfortunately, we haven't heard from her for a week, but that may as much be due to the fact that she's atrocious at keeping in touch. Aside from Moscow, I myself have only visited elsewhere in the country twice - Kaliningrad and St. Petersburg and had a visit planned to Kamchatka, which was cancelled due to the covid outbreak. I am as fascinated by the geography of the country that you call your home, as I am the history of it. I have found Muscovites behind their ostensibly brusque, cold and aloof demeanor/exterior, to be warm, friendly and engaging. 

 

Actually, although you accuse others of such, you are the one making all the assumptions here.

 

No, you clearly do not. So why type that utter nonsense?

 

 And you would be wrong again.

 

Tell me, how's that going? That clearly isn't the case is it otherwise you would be cognisant of the current war against civilians in Ukraine. Meanwhile, you have a President that has claimed that Ukraine is "not a real country" and currently being liberated from neo-nazi rule by "military operation". Care to comment on that? Of course you won't, you have ignored 90% of the questions that I have directed at you and will continue to do so.

 

Agree entirely - and this can afflict reporting and MSM outlets across the globe. However, in the UK, although the press may follow an editorial line, for the western journalist, the greatest acclaim comes from bucking this trend, eschewing the 'food chain' of so called lobby journalism and exposing government corruption. That cannot and does not happen in Russia any longer. Meduza and the Russian-language website Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, Svoboda, have been all but shut down by Roskomnadzor in the last week alone. 

 

Can you imagine the Main Directorate of Internal Affairs of the City of Moscow, investigating Vladimir Putin and his cronies?

 

Thank you for now clarifying that. This is what you originally said.

 

No I wouldn't accuse the Ukranian government of war crimes in those circumstances, but as I have pointed out, this is false equivalence. Again, to reiterate, we are not talking about skirmishes and fighting in the proximity of residential areas, rather a planned and coordinated strategy of expressly targeting civilians during the invasion of an independent nation through airstrikes, shelling and multiple rocket launchers. We also know, that Russia has deployed thermobaric weapons and will similarly be prepared to use them on civilians as they did in Syria. This is precisely why the ICC are currently on the ground in Ukraine gathering evidence of Russian war crimes. Are you in denial of that too? 

 

And why do you keep ignoring this?

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/06/03/russia/syria-flurry-prohibited-weapons-attacks

https://www.hrw.org/report/2020/10/15/targeting-life-idlib/syrian-and-russian-strikes-civilian-infrastructure#

 

At no stage whatsoever have I made any such claim. I have simply recounted events as they have unfolded. Like I said, your denial, cognitive dissonance, personal incredulity and national bias is irrelevant here - as am I. The atrocities being committed against civilians can only be covered up by your own despotic rulers. 

 

I can however inform you that the claim of the President of the country that you live in that Ukraine is "governed by a neo-nazi regime" is as deluded as it is comical. 

 

No they don't. They testify to skirmishes and engagements between Ukrainian soldiers and pro-Russian separatists (Russian proxies) within and adjacent to civilian areas. That is very different to this...

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/06/03/russia/syria-flurry-prohibited-weapons-attacks

 

...and the current systematic bombardment of civilian tracts of housing by the invading Russian military from the ground and air.

 

Again, you completely sidestepped the question. What is your understanding of the shooting down of Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17?

 

It is not 'my evidence' - how many times, I am irrelevant. 

 

Russia has used heavy artillery, smart air bombardment and thermobaric weapons upon the civilian population of Syria. That is not even up for debate. 

 

No I really don't and given your aimless diatribe, prevarication and denial I'm not sure that you do either. 

 

I am trained in science and the scientific method. I am hard wired to abandon pre-conceptions and revise my understanding based upon new and emergent evidence. But to reiterate again, I am irrelevant. The war in Ukraine is being relayed across the world. Once again, we are not talking about the odd stray rocket or shell, the chilling strategy is inescapable. This is a planned and systematic war directed and targeted at the citizens of Ukraine in order to force the government to yield. It is unfolding in front of the eyes of the world. If you have access to global unbiased and objective sources as you claim, you would know that. 

 

Many of these cities do indeed have strategic significance, but what you seem to be unable to comprehend is that the residential areas are being expressly targeted in order to subdue them. That is unequivocal. 

 

The innocent people of Ukraine that are dying as a consequence did not ask for this war, nor did they invite this upon themselves. The International Red Cross are appealing to Vladimir Putin to cease targeting civilians who must be protected from these attacks in line with the rules of war.

 

This is the single biggest attack on a European state since World War II in compete violation of international law causing Europe's largest refugee crisis this century. Are you in support of the Russian invasion of Ukraine? 

Imagine the scrolling if loads of people quote this reply 😅

Edited 5 March 2022 by The Year Of The Fox

[String fellow]

When Russia imposes a puppet regime on Ukraine, no doubt they'll have an autocratic president, who'll then mysteriously win every subsequent election by a landslide, just as Lukashenko has done in Belarus, and be in control for the next 30 odd years. Putin really does need to stop sitting at one end of an enormously long table with nothing on it, trying to look important, and start reading a few books on the subject of democracy instead.

[Mike Oxlong]

37 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

And Marshall was never in the frame for a cap ?????

You can actually buy Ian Marshall caps online 

 

[The Year Of The Fox]

Just now, Mike Oxlong said:

You can actually buy Ian Marshall caps online 

 

Wasn’t he on about Ben?

[Sol thewall Bamba]

 

[Jattdogg]

16 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

People have been banned for all sorts of things on here ..  maybe we ought to add being a subversive Russian spy to the list and get this dickhead off the forum.    

 

 

Too kind of you lol.

[st albans fox]

3 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

Wasn’t he on about Ben?

Not sure ……..what does TASS say on the subject ??

[ARTY_FOX]

1 hour ago, MarshallForEngland said:

I'm sorry but this almost looks like a parody. Your argument was "I know about artillery and that's not an accident". I thought you were joking when you said that was your basis for determining whether or not the building was struck on purpose by a Russian missile. Please tell me exactly what about it tells you that it was a missile deliberately fired by Russian forces at the building? Is it something about the trajectory of the projectile? The blast pattern? Could you see the weapon which fired it in the video? Can you tell from the projectile (I couldn't even see one but I am willing to be shown) who it belonged to? Do you know who was in the building? Had anyone been evacuated? Were there any weapons or soldiers in there? Was anything launched from that site prior to the event filmed? Was anybody firing from the windows? Seriously, you have no idea about any of this. Why can't you just admit that? You do not know the answers to these questions and neither do I. War is chaos and hell and none of us have any idea what is happening in that video. To pretend you do is dishonest.

No. My whole comment was on how it wasn't an accident it hit a civilian building and how the multiple rounds that hit it is an indisputable fact that the building in question was the target. If it makes it to Russia today you'll understand finally though.

 

As for parody's you should be looking closer to home. 

[ARTY_FOX]

5 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

 

That's not Russian have you got proof.thats a scene from the teletubbies. Saw it on RT.

[Carl the Llama]

3 minutes ago, ARTY_FOX said:

That's not Russian have you got proof.thats a scene from the teletubbies. Saw it on RT.

I'm sure Putin's calling an emergency roundtable of Air-Stewardesses to explain the situation as we speak.

(Apologies for the video source, it hurts me more than it hurts you)

[ARTY_FOX]

2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I'm sure Putin's calling an emergency roundtable of Air-Stewardesses to explain the situation as we speak.

(Apologies for the video source, it hurts me more than it hurts you)

I just like how he cherry picks points but when other have dismantled his entire argument repeatedly they're 'pushing a narrative' (much like Russian media) 

[Sir Shep]

1 hour ago, Line-X said:

What was that you said earlier - "do you understand the concept of admitting you don't know something?"

 

Really? Ok then.

 

You can keep playing the "living in Russia" card, but your claim that living in Russia affords a more "balanced view" is laughable. And also, how would you know otherwise? You have already displayed a shocking level of ignorance about the media in the UK. You live in the bubble of an autocracy which is sadly fast descending into a dictatorship. 

 

I can assure you that it is. My brother lived in Moscow for three years in the Presnensky District and a close friend of the family that has taught out there for a decade is now desperately attempting to leave the country. Unfortunately, we haven't heard from her for a week, but that may as much be due to the fact that she's atrocious at keeping in touch. Aside from Moscow, I myself have only visited elsewhere in the country twice - Kaliningrad and St. Petersburg and had a visit planned to Kamchatka, which was cancelled due to the covid outbreak. I am as fascinated by the geography of the country that you call your home, as I am the history of it. I have found Muscovites behind their ostensibly brusque, cold and aloof demeanor/exterior, to be warm, friendly and engaging. 

 

Actually, although you accuse others of such, you are the one making all the assumptions here.

 

No, you clearly do not. So why type that utter nonsense?

 

 And you would be wrong again.

 

Tell me, how's that going? That clearly isn't the case is it otherwise you would be cognisant of the current war against civilians in Ukraine. Meanwhile, you have a President that has claimed that Ukraine is "not a real country" and currently being liberated from neo-nazi rule by "military operation". Care to comment on that? Of course you won't, you have ignored 90% of the questions that I have directed at you and will continue to do so.

 

Agree entirely - and this can afflict reporting and MSM outlets across the globe. However, in the UK, although the press may follow an editorial line, for the western journalist, the greatest acclaim comes from bucking this trend, eschewing the 'food chain' of so called lobby journalism and exposing government corruption. That cannot and does not happen in Russia any longer. Meduza and the Russian-language website Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, Svoboda, have been all but shut down by Roskomnadzor in the last week alone. 

 

Can you imagine the Main Directorate of Internal Affairs of the City of Moscow, investigating Vladimir Putin and his cronies?

 

Thank you for now clarifying that. This is what you originally said.

 

No I wouldn't accuse the Ukranian government of war crimes in those circumstances, but as I have pointed out, this is false equivalence. Again, to reiterate, we are not talking about skirmishes and fighting in the proximity of residential areas, rather a planned and coordinated strategy of expressly targeting civilians during the invasion of an independent nation through airstrikes, shelling and multiple rocket launchers. We also know, that Russia has deployed thermobaric weapons and will similarly be prepared to use them on civilians as they did in Syria. This is precisely why the ICC are currently on the ground in Ukraine gathering evidence of Russian war crimes. Are you in denial of that too? 

 

And why do you keep ignoring this?

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/06/03/russia/syria-flurry-prohibited-weapons-attacks

https://www.hrw.org/report/2020/10/15/targeting-life-idlib/syrian-and-russian-strikes-civilian-infrastructure#

 

At no stage whatsoever have I made any such claim. I have simply recounted events as they have unfolded. Like I said, your denial, cognitive dissonance, personal incredulity and national bias is irrelevant here - as am I. The atrocities being committed against civilians can only be covered up by your own despotic rulers. 

 

I can however inform you that the claim of the President of the country that you live in that Ukraine is "governed by a neo-nazi regime" is as deluded as it is comical. 

 

No they don't. They testify to skirmishes and engagements between Ukrainian soldiers and pro-Russian separatists (Russian proxies) within and adjacent to civilian areas. That is very different to this...

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/06/03/russia/syria-flurry-prohibited-weapons-attacks

 

...and the current systematic bombardment of civilian tracts of housing by the invading Russian military from the ground and air.

 

Again, you completely sidestepped the question. What is your understanding of the shooting down of Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17?

 

It is not 'my evidence' - how many times, I am irrelevant. 

 

Russia has used heavy artillery, smart air bombardment and thermobaric weapons upon the civilian population of Syria. That is not even up for debate. 

 

No I really don't and given your aimless diatribe, prevarication and denial I'm not sure that you do either. 

 

I am trained in science and the scientific method. I am hard wired to abandon pre-conceptions and revise my understanding based upon new and emergent evidence. But to reiterate again, I am irrelevant. The war in Ukraine is being relayed across the world. Once again, we are not talking about the odd stray rocket or shell, the chilling strategy is inescapable. This is a planned and systematic war directed and targeted at the citizens of Ukraine in order to force the government to yield. It is unfolding in front of the eyes of the world. If you have access to global unbiased and objective sources as you claim, you would know that. 

 

Many of these cities do indeed have strategic significance, but what you seem to be unable to comprehend is that the residential areas are being expressly targeted in order to subdue them. That is unequivocal. 

 

The innocent people of Ukraine that are dying as a consequence did not ask for this war, nor did they invite this upon themselves. The International Red Cross are appealing to Vladimir Putin to cease targeting civilians who must be protected from these attacks in line with the rules of war.

 

This is the single biggest attack on a European state since World War II in compete violation of international law causing Europe's largest refugee crisis this century. Are you in support of the Russian invasion of Ukraine? 

I am just impressed you have got the patience for this to be honest! 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

30 minutes ago, ARTY_FOX said:

That's not Russian have you got proof.thats a scene from the teletubbies. Saw it on RT.

It was a special military landing according to Putin.

[LCFCCHRIS]

30 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I'm sure Putin's calling an emergency roundtable of Air-Stewardesses to explain the situation as we speak.

(Apologies for the video source, it hurts me more than it hurts you)

Those girls faces listening to him 🤣 reminds me of this 

[FoxesDeb]

If ever we needed proof of brainwashing, surely this is it 

 

But seriously, do we have to suffer this pro Putin bullshit? 

[st albans fox]

3 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

If ever we needed proof of brainwashing, surely this is it 

 

But seriously, do we have to suffer this pro Putin bullshit? 

You do realise that half the worlds population probably thinks like Marshall does ?  Infact, you could be in the global minority!

[David Hankey]

Perhaps with Marshall "living in Russia" he could help us all out by assassinating Putin.

[MPH]

1 hour ago, Countryfox said:

People have been banned for all sorts of things on here ..  maybe we ought to add being a subversive Russian spy to the list and get this dickhead off the forum.    

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

If ever we needed proof of brainwashing, surely this is it 

 

But seriously, do we have to suffer this pro Putin bullshit? 

 

well, I think we either believe in free speech or we don’t.

 

 

besides, personally I think he’s doing a great job of embarrassing himself  and it’s all being done openly. No need to try and imagine  that people like him exists- he’s living proof!