Brendan’s Signings

[Guesty]

23 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

They're not Rodgers signings. 

 

They're Rudkin signings and even then they'll all have been picked out, evaluated watched and analysed by different scouts and data analysts under different heads of recruitment. 

 

I really wish we'd get over this absolute obsession with attributing responsibility for signings to managers. Rodgers job was managing the squad he was given, he did so poorly and was sacked. 

Not really sure I agree with this. Normally I would; cause most managers don't have much say, yet get blamed. And you're right modern football doesn't work like that anymore. But it's clear Rodgers had more power here than is normal.

 

Vestergaard basically exposed this when he got banished to reserves for telling everyone Rodgers had been talking to him and bigging him up for 18 months prior to the transfer and couldn't understand why we signed him.

 

It's documented that people in our recruitment and analytics department left because players were signed against their advice.

 

When we didn't spend last summer Rodgers himself said he had players lined up he'd been convincing to come to the club all summer.

 

I even remember Rodgers once saying something like: No player comes into this club without my say so. I have final say. 

 

You could say, ultimately Rudkin has final responsibility since he is DoF and I'd agree with that. But I think this situation is more nuanced than that; it's clearly been amateur hour behind the scenes. 

[Dahnsouff]

3 minutes ago, Guesty said:

Not really sure I agree with this. Normally I would; cause most managers don't have much say, yet get blamed. And you're right modern football doesn't work like that anymore. But it's clear Rodgers had more power here than is normal.

 

Vestergaard basically exposed this when he got banished to reserves for telling everyone Rodgers had been talking to him and bigging him up for 18 months prior to the transfer and couldn't understand why we signed him.

 

It's documented that people in our recruitment and analytics department left because players were signed against their advice.

 

When we didn't spend last summer Rodgers himself said he had players lined up he'd been convincing to come to the club all summer.

 

I even remember Rodgers once saying something like: No player comes into this club without my say so. I have final say. 

 

You could say, ultimately Rudkin has final responsibility since he is DoF and I'd agree with that. But I think this situation is more nuanced than that; it's clearly been amateur hour behind the scenes. 

Then this goes two ways, either a) it’s as with any club, the manager has input but the recruitment is directed by the recruitment team and sanctioned by the DoF, or b) the manger has some Machiavellian control over the club and sway far beyond the norm, in which case both the DoF and the owner are negligent.

 

There are ample reasons to despise Brendan without fabricating further instances.

[Guest Mee-9]

Wonder where we'd be if we had signed Lookman and kept Schmeichel. 

 

[Merging Cultures]

5 hours ago, Mark_w said:

You don’t think Wes Fofana was a decent signing?

For the two minutes he played and wanted to play for us?

[Beachyboy]

1 hour ago, LcFc_Smiv said:

Where my head is at, I’d rather be in the Championship having to make astute signings and having to really consider every financial detail to not jeopardise our club further. Rewind a few months, and I was fearing going into the summer with Rodgers overseeing our biggest ever rebuild with that complacency still in tact, that for me would have seen us off as a club for good.

 

I know they weren’t the two only possible outcomes, but I have said it for a while, this club needs a major wake up call and this thread is the perfect example of why. Relegation will mean that senior figures cannot hide or take accountability, it’s going to rock us to the core but we simply could not continue as we were.

Surely even if by some miracle we did stay up, nobody would just be allowed to just carry on like it was the end of last season though??

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, Beachyboy said:

Surely even if by some miracle we did stay up, nobody would just be allowed to just carry on like it was the end of last season though??

One expensive reality check. Heads should roll.

[Stadt]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

They're not Rodgers signings. 

 

They're Rudkin signings and even then they'll all have been picked out, evaluated watched and analysed by different scouts and data analysts under different heads of recruitment. 

 

I really wish we'd get over this absolute obsession with attributing responsibility for signings to managers. Rodgers job was managing the squad he was given, he did so poorly and was sacked. 

When he stipulated his head of recruitment at Celtic joined with him it’s reasonable to say they were his signings up until Congerton was moved on. 

[Mark_w]

3 minutes ago, Merging Cultures said:

For the two minutes he played and wanted to play for us?

I was thinking more about winning the FA Cup and making an obscene profit.

[jayfox26]

54 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

No, Rudkin brought Congerton to the club. The manager doesn't hire and fire the head of recruitment. 

 

Now, absolutely, Rodgers' prior relationship with Congerton and possibly his recommendation may have absolutely been considered. I'd say that's likely. 

 

But even a head of recruitment doesn't have complete authority to go and find and sign players. He's just manages the department that identifies potential talent and will help shape a recruitment strategy. He isn't out there on his own picking players and buying them. 

 

He's got a whole army of personnel both watching footballers play and studying their statistics, the majority of whom are likely long term employees of the club who have seen head coaches and heads of recruitment all come and go. 

 

Seriously, some of our fans need to put FIFA and Football Manager down and stop watching Michael Sheen and Timothy Spall driving round the country tapping up old pros. 

 

Like it or not, that isn't modern football. 

The reality is none of us know who does what at the top of the club. All I'm saying is that Rodgers isn't faultless for the state of the squad but I agree, alot of it is down to Rudkin. There is no way Rudkin just happened to identify Celtics head of recruitment. Rodgers definitely would have been involved in that. 

[Merging Cultures]

Just now, Mark_w said:

I was thinking more about winning the FA Cup and making an obscene profit.

I'll always take the money.

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Stadt said:

When he stipulated his head of recruitment at Celtic joined with him it’s reasonable to say they were his signings up until Congerton was moved on. 

Stipulated?  

 

Stop to tell…..

[SpacedX]

8 minutes ago, Mee-9 said:

Wonder where we'd be if we had signed Lookman and kept Schmeichel. 

 

1/ Likely, not in a relegation battle.

2/ Brendan Rodgers still firmly entrenched.

3/ Still lacking an out and out right sided winger.

4/ Sat on the timebomb and poised to be caught unawares by the catastrophe in waiting that is Danny Ward and Daniel Iverson. 

[wardyfox86]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

No, Rudkin brought Congerton to the club. The manager doesn't hire and fire the head of recruitment. 

 

Now, absolutely, Rodgers' prior relationship with Congerton and possibly his recommendation may have absolutely been considered. I'd say that's likely. 

 

But even a head of recruitment doesn't have complete authority to go and find and sign players. He's just manages the department that identifies potential talent and will help shape a recruitment strategy. He isn't out there on his own picking players and buying them. 

 

He's got a whole army of personnel both watching footballers play and studying their statistics, the majority of whom are likely long term employees of the club who have seen head coaches and heads of recruitment all come and go. 

 

Seriously, some of our fans need to put FIFA and Football Manager down and stop watching Michael Sheen and Timothy Spall driving round the country tapping up old pros. 

 

Like it or not, that isn't modern football. 

Spot on. And there were question marks over Congerton's past signings, without even digging too deep the average fan could point out his shortcomings.

 

If we had a competent board with a backbone, Congerton wouldn't ever be anywhere near us, regardless of what Brendan wanted.

[LcFc_Smiv]

37 minutes ago, Beachyboy said:

Surely even if by some miracle we did stay up, nobody would just be allowed to just carry on like it was the end of last season though??

You would think not but there has been some noise from a member of the media and posters on here alluding that their is still an air of complacency around the club leading into last weekends game. If that is the case I really don't understand what more it is going to take for them to wake up, the fans have sensed it from the off this season, the club has been negligible. 

[Soar Fox]

1 hour ago, Mee-9 said:

Wonder where we'd be if we had signed Lookman and kept Schmeichel. 

 

If we had been this bad all season with Schmeichel still here I’d imagine he would have gone to Top directly and said we need a managerial change earlier than we did. 

[Gamble92]

1 minute ago, Steve_Walsh5 said:

If we had been this bad all season with Schmeichel still here I’d imagine he would have gone to Top directly and said we need a managerial change earlier than we did. 

Does make you think there were enough still there who cared under Ranieri to seemingly voice their discontent to the owners/board.

 

We created a spine of a dressing room that was reminiscent of all those top sides through the 90s like United and Arsenal. Doesn't mean they had their quality, just their attitude and would make sure others standards didn't drop. They cared. 

[Vestan Pance]

2 hours ago, Finnegan said:

They're not Rodgers signings. 

 

They're Rudkin signings and even then they'll all have been picked out, evaluated watched and analysed by different scouts and data analysts under different heads of recruitment. 

 

I really wish we'd get over this absolute obsession with attributing responsibility for signings to managers. Rodgers job was managing the squad he was given, he did so poorly and was sacked. 

Rodgers more say over signings as his stay went on, hence the appointment of Congerton and the signing of Vestergaard.

[Guesty]

2 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

Then this goes two ways, either a) it’s as with any club, the manager has input but the recruitment is directed by the recruitment team and sanctioned by the DoF, or b) the manger has some Machiavellian control over the club and sway far beyond the norm, in which case both the DoF and the owner are negligent.

 

There are ample reasons to despise Brendan without fabricating further instances.

I don't understand the fabricating bit? 

 

Vestergaard and Rodger's comments are public knowledge.

 

It was reported in the Athletic that recruitment and analytic staff left because of transfer disagreements. Our new Head of Analytics was only appointed last month.

 

Like I say, it's a nuanced situation. Both A and B have probably happened. Machiavellian might be a bit strong, but you just have to read about the end of his time at Liverpool and what FSG thought of him to know he lies: https://www.thisisanfield.com/2019/10/journalist-reveals-extent-of-fsgs-anger-at-brendan-rodgers-at-end-of-liverpool-reign/

 

Our board have given some managers like Pearson/Walsh and Puel a bigger than normal say in transfers; by and large recruitmentwise it was successful. So why would Rodgers be any different. They let him bring Congerton with him; but all those signings backfired. Then the club tried to go back to what worked before - according to the Athletic Rodgers never wanted Soumare, the club did - but then that backfired too. 

 

Now we have a totally imbalanced squad. Ultimately, it all falls on Rudkin and Top as they are responsible. Rudkin is a DoF in name only as far as I'm concerned; he seems like a totally out of his depth yes man. Someone who rode the coattails of other people's good work and decisions; who has now been completely exposed. But to say Rodgers fingerprints aren't all over some of these signings when he and a player have publicly said otherwise seems strange - which is what I was originally addressing.

 

 

Edited 10 May 2023 by Guesty

[Gamble92]

3 minutes ago, Guesty said:

I don't understand the fabricating bit? 

 

Vestergaard and Rodger's comments are public knowledge.

 

It was reported in the Athletic that recruitment and analytic staff left because of transfer disagreements. Our new Head of Analytics was only appointed last month.

 

Like I say, it's a nuanced situation. Both A and B have probably happened. Machiavellian might be a bit strong, but you just have to read about the end of his time at Liverpool and what FSG thought of him to know he lies: https://www.thisisanfield.com/2019/10/journalist-reveals-extent-of-fsgs-anger-at-brendan-rodgers-at-end-of-liverpool-reign/

 

Our board have given some managers like Pearson/Walsh and Puel a bigger than normal say in transfers; by and large recruitmentwise it was successful. So why would Rodgers be any different. They let him bring Congerton with him; but all those signings backfired. Then the club tried to go back to what worked before - according to the Athletic Rodgers never wanted Soumare, the club did - but then that backfired too. 

 

Now we have a total imbalanced squad. Ultimately, it all falls on Rudkin and Top as they are responsible. Rudkin is a DoF in name only as far as I'm concerned; he seems like a totally out of his depth yes man. Someone who rode the coattails of other people's good work and decisions; who has now been completely exposed. But to say Rodgers fingerprints aren't all over some of these signings when he and a player have publicly said otherwise seems strange - which is what I was originally addressing.

 

 

Spot on.

[don_danbury]

only fofana and justin any good out of all them. bloody hell what a waste. 

[Lambert09]

57 minutes ago, Guesty said:

I don't understand the fabricating bit? 

 

Vestergaard and Rodger's comments are public knowledge.

 

It was reported in the Athletic that recruitment and analytic staff left because of transfer disagreements. Our new Head of Analytics was only appointed last month.

 

Like I say, it's a nuanced situation. Both A and B have probably happened. Machiavellian might be a bit strong, but you just have to read about the end of his time at Liverpool and what FSG thought of him to know he lies: https://www.thisisanfield.com/2019/10/journalist-reveals-extent-of-fsgs-anger-at-brendan-rodgers-at-end-of-liverpool-reign/

 

Our board have given some managers like Pearson/Walsh and Puel a bigger than normal say in transfers; by and large recruitmentwise it was successful. So why would Rodgers be any different. They let him bring Congerton with him; but all those signings backfired. Then the club tried to go back to what worked before - according to the Athletic Rodgers never wanted Soumare, the club did - but then that backfired too. 

 

Now we have a total imbalanced squad. Ultimately, it all falls on Rudkin and Top as they are responsible. Rudkin is a DoF in name only as far as I'm concerned; he seems like a totally out of his depth yes man. Someone who rode the coattails of other people's good work and decisions; who has now been completely exposed. But to say Rodgers fingerprints aren't all over some of these signings when he and a player have publicly said otherwise seems strange - which is what I was originally addressing.

 

 

I doubt it was that he didnt want him and more that he didnt know anything about him. He's not a scout after all, so you cant expect the manager to know everything about players.  This is exactly why clubs allowing managers to make signings is a dying method. 

 

Most clubs now realize tapping into a managers small knowledge of one league obviously limits your potential when we have access to data for hundreds of leagues to find someone better suited. 

 

Of course if someones worked with someone and knows they are just what they need, than thats fine. But Rodgers signing someone like Bertrand that he knew from youth football or Gerrard going after Coutinho is just plain stupid. 

 

Although I think we all know Bertrand was a form of nepotism 

Edited 10 May 2023 by Lambert09

[desertfox2]

2 hours ago, Mee-9 said:

Wonder where we'd be if we had signed Lookman and kept Schmeichel. 

 

15 points better off probably. 

[volpeazzurro]

56 minutes ago, Vestan Pance said:

Rodgers more say over signings as his stay went on, hence the appointment of Congerton and the signing of Vestergaard.

Certainly Perez, Bertrand and Vestergaard. He himself said he wanted Perez and Vestergaard stated that it was Rodgers who phoned him twice to come. 

[VLC86]

3 hours ago, Finnegan said:

They're not Rodgers signings. 

 

They're Rudkin signings and even then they'll all have been picked out, evaluated watched and analysed by different scouts and data analysts under different heads of recruitment. 

 

I really wish we'd get over this absolute obsession with attributing responsibility for signings to managers. Rodgers job was managing the squad he was given, he did so poorly and was sacked. 

Other than Yannik coming out saying Rodgers hassled him for 2 years solid before we signed him of course. The truth or probably somewhere in between.

[Lambert09]

2 hours ago, Mee-9 said:

Wonder where we'd be if we had signed Lookman and kept Schmeichel. 

 

I think the Lookman saga completely sums up whats gone wrong.  The club turned down a signing everyone wanted, tried and tested and for a reasonable fee.  We had no trouble finding funds in January, so it really does show that it was just complacency at its finest. 

 

Weve literally been relegated because our board were worried about fines if we made europe again! Just think of how stupid that is. I would much rather achieved it and worry about the smacked wrist at the time. Of course we needed to tighten certain things up but not completely sit still.  Im sure villa dont give a damn about the 5m fine they would get for reaching europe illegally. 

 

I cant remember a time when a club sat still and was fine. The only 2 I can think of in the last 10 years were probably everton last season, who survived very late in the day and Sheffield united in their second season... they still made some big moves (brewster comes to mind)   but probably needed to push on more than they tried, but they assumed the players who had done well before would keep doing it... of course they got relegated. 

 

 

I think one word comes to mind to sum up why we are here and its not complacency.... Its arrogance 

 

 

 

Edited 10 May 2023 by Lambert09