Notts F & Everton admit to breaking rules and face points deduction

[Fear Of The Fox]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

I think that we should do the lawsuit, however I'm also pretty sure the burden of proof for indicating liability on the part of Everton and thus winning won't be easy to meet.

 

Are there any legal eagles or folks familiar with the case that can indicate what the aforementioned burden of proof might be?

It won't be easy but our legal department can prove Everton's liability by gathering also some statements/interviews of their board members. There's an interview of Everton's owner saying he's aware of the team's financial situation but they need to spend more despite the FFP to strengthen their midfield. 

I have gathered also myself 3 more statements where it's clear they were breaching FFP rules to strengthen their squad to survive in the PL. 

 

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Fear Of The Fox said:

It won't be easy but our legal department can prove Everton's liability by gathering also some statements/interviews of their board members. There's an interview of Everton's owner saying he's aware of the team's financial situation but they need to spend more despite the FFP to strengthen their midfield. 

I have gathered also myself 3 more statements where it's clear they were breaching FFP rules to strengthen their squad to survive in the PL. 

 

Right.

 

Proving conclusively that these things hurt our club directly however, will be tricky.

[Sunbury Fox]

3 hours ago, Qwerty said:

I started out feeling really glad that Everton had been punished, but now I’m just frustrated that we didn’t do the same.  If we’d cheated, bought players, broken FFP rules and had a 10 point deduction, we’d still be in the PL and be quite comfortable there too, in the same way Everton will be in a few weeks.   I had a look at an Everton fan forum and they’re not worried at all.  

If that's the case, it will be all the sweeter if they finally get relegated. Everyone is saying that they'll be fine but even if they maintain their (uncharacteristically half decent) form so far this season (far from certain) then, with the points deduction, they'll finish on 34 points. In the 30 year history of the PL, not a single club has survived with that number of points. 

Edited 18 November 2023 by Sunbury Fox

[HarryDee8]

Chuck them out the league! 

 

 

[Qwerty]

9 minutes ago, Sunbury Fox said:

If that's the case, it will be all the sweeter if they finally get relegated. Everyone is saying that they'll be fine but even if they maintain their (uncharacteristically half decent) form so far this season (far from certain) then, with the points deduction, they'll finish on 34 points. In the 30 year history of the PL, not a single club has survived with that number of points. 

In any other season they’d be done for.  But this season, Luton, Burnley and Sheffield probably won’t even get 30 points.  Usually there’s 1, maybe 2 teams who are destined for relegation from the outset.  This time there are 3.  So Everton have nothing to fear, annoyingly. 

[Sunbury Fox]

Just now, Qwerty said:

In any other season they’d be done for.  But this season, Luton, Burnley and Sheffield probably won’t even get 30 points.  Usually there’s 1, maybe 2 teams who are destined for relegation from the outset.  This time there are 3.  So Everton have nothing to fear, annoyingly. 

You never know. Forest had around the same number of points as the promoted teams this time last season and stayed up. There's still a long way to go. Luton have already won at Goodison.

[Fear Of The Fox]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Right.

 

Proving conclusively that these things hurt our club directly however, will be tricky.

It's tricky but don't forget our board made statements which were the complete opposite of the Everton ones. We didn't strengthen our squad because we were following the FFP rules. It would have been easy to spend more and wait after a couple of years for sanctions either fines or points deduction.

Everton didn't get that much of an advantage eventually on the pitch but this is also down to their unsuccessful recruiting system. The fact is they tried to strengthen their squad, they were open about it and by results they managed to stay up in our expense. 

Before I get misunderstood, I'm not saying we didn't make any mistakes but I'm talking strictly about the case. BR being stubborn or the board being complacent and indecisive are irrelevant aspects to the case. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Fear Of The Fox said:

It's tricky but don't forget our board made statements which were the complete opposite of the Everton ones. We didn't strengthen our squad because we were following the FFP rules. It would have been easy to spend more and wait after a couple of years for sanctions either fines or points deduction.

Everton didn't get that much of an advantage eventually on the pitch but this is also down to their unsuccessful recruiting system. The fact is they tried to strengthen their squad, they were open about it and by results they managed to stay up in our expense. 

Before I get misunderstood, I'm not saying we didn't make any mistakes but I'm talking strictly about the case. BR being stubborn or the board being complacent and indecisive are irrelevant aspects to the case. 

There is no doubt that Everton broke the rules.

 

It's just linking that breaking to them having a decisive advantage over us - directly and in a way that will stand up in a court of law - that is going to be the real task.

[Fear Of The Fox]

5 minutes ago, Qwerty said:

In any other season they’d be done for.  But this season, Luton, Burnley and Sheffield probably won’t even get 30 points.  Usually there’s 1, maybe 2 teams who are destined for relegation from the outset.  This time there are 3.  So Everton have nothing to fear, annoyingly. 

It's still early, just 12 games in. We've seen bad teams suddenly going on a winning streak. Luton nearly won vs Liverpool. 2-3 bad results for Everton and other teams winning (they play against each other in the following weeks) and the pressure is suddenly on. 

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

There is no doubt that Everton broke the rules.

 

It's just linking that breaking to them having a decisive advantage over us - directly and in a way that will stand up in a court of law - that is going to be the real task.

Do you need to prove that? Isn’t the potential benefit gained by breaking these rules enough? I understand it makes it difficult, nigh on impossible for the EPL to adopt such a stance, as there Will/would be inevitable scrutiny on their favourites,  it surely this should be the argument? 

[Spiritwalker]

19 hours ago, Qwerty said:

I'm amazed that people keep saying we can't prove that we'd have stayed up if Everton hadn't cheated, that we deserved to be relegated, that it's our own fault etc etc, and referring to specific games where we made mistakes and lost.

 

The fact is, Everton cheated and we didn't. 

We both had crap cars with empty tanks, but they sneakily put some petrol in theirs and won the race.  Surely that's more than a coincidence. 

It’s like saying Ben Johnson or Lance Armstrong might have won anyway, it completely misses the point that those

who finished behind them were cheated, and that should be rectified.

[Fear Of The Fox]

2 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Do you need to prove that? Isn’t the potential benefit gained by breaking these rules enough? I understand it makes it difficult, nigh on impossible for the EPL to adopt such a stance, as there Will/would be inevitable scrutiny on their favourites,  it surely this should be the argument? 

This exactly. They didn't break the rules to buy and offer free hot dogs to their fans. They didn't break the rules to buy a new coffee machine. They broke the rules to maintain the PL status of the team so they can have more PL payments and benefits. And ofc they've achieved their goal. 

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Do you need to prove that? Isn’t the potential benefit gained by breaking these rules enough? I understand it makes it difficult, nigh on impossible for the EPL to adopt such a stance, as there Will/would be inevitable scrutiny on their favourites,  it surely this should be the argument? 

 

1 minute ago, Fear Of The Fox said:

This exactly. They didn't break the rules to buy and offer free hot dogs to their fans. They didn't break the rules to buy a new coffee machine. They broke the rules to maintain the PL status of the team so they can have more PL payments and benefits. And ofc they've achieved their goal. 

I think if we (and the other clubs directly suing Everton) are going to hold them liable for things that have happened specifically to us, I think that would have to be proven, yes. It's like (to use the example immediately above) a leading cyclist suing Lance Armstrong for what he did - I would think he would have to prove personal damage to himself that Mr Armstrong had directly inflicted upon him, rather than general harm inflicted upon a lot of entities (which is much easily provable - and has really already been proven).

 

But I have very little idea of the specifics which is why I was wondering if anyone with legal expertise might be able to clarify.

Edited 18 November 2023 by leicsmac

[Qwerty]

18 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

I think if we (and the other clubs directly suing Everton) are going to hold them liable for things that have happened specifically to us, I think that would have to be proven, yes. It's like (to use the example immediately above) a leading cyclist suing Lance Armstrong for what he did - I would think he would have to prove personal damage to himself that Mr Armstrong had directly inflicted upon him, rather than general harm inflicted upon a lot of entities (which is much easily provable - and has really already been proven).

 

But I have very little idea of the specifics which is why I was wondering if anyone with legal expertise might be able to clarify.

It can’t be proven that we would have stayed up.    But I think the incredibly narrow margin (2 points between us an Everton, with us having a better goal difference) must surely mean that on the balance of probabilities, we would have finished above Everton if they hadn’t cheated.

 

The law states that “The burden of proof is on the claimant, who must prove that on the balance of probabilities, his/her case is true. This means that the court must be satisfied that on the evidence, the occurrence of an event was more likely than not”. 
 

So whilst we can’t prove it would have made the crucial difference, I think we can prove that on the balance of probabilities it would have. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Qwerty said:

It can’t be proven that we would have stayed up.    But I think the incredibly narrow margin (2 points between us an Everton, with us having a better goal difference) must surely mean that on the balance of probabilities, we would have finished above Everton if they hadn’t cheated.

 

The law states that “The burden of proof is on the claimant, who must prove that on the balance of probabilities, his/her case is true. This means that the court must be satisfied that on the evidence, the occurrence of an event was more likely than not”. 
 

So whilst we can’t prove it would have made the crucial difference, I think we can prove that on the balance of probabilities it would have. 

Yeah, it's not a criminal case where it must be "beyond a reasonable doubt", it's a civil one where "balance of probability" is the BoP.

 

I hope that we can do enough to satisfy that burden.

[smudger63]

53 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Right.

 

Proving conclusively that these things hurt our club directly however, will be tricky.

Well they've admitted they knew they were in the wrong, they're not contesting that, only the severity of the sanction.

How do we prove it hurt our club, well difficult in the sense that if we hadn't give a toss about ffp last season, like Everton hadnt been bothered,  and brought in some decent players in the summer, instead of trying to keep within ffp, we ourselves may have been in breach of ffp ourselves.

The big difference being we played by the rules, they didn't.

It makes no difference at the end of the day, because I dare say in the end we won't pursue it, and Everton will have got away with it, due to the Premier league this season, having at least 4 teams that are no where near good enough being in it.

[Fear Of The Fox]

Here's one of the hundreds of articles regarding the Everton's situation. This one is from December 2021:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10267415/Everton-splurged-500m-players-Farhad-Moshiri-waste.html

 

They knew they were in trouble and they kept on breaching the rules to gain advantage on and off the pitch. 

[The Year Of The Fox]

We should’ve relegated them two seasons ago, then none of this would’ve been relevant 

Edited 18 November 2023 by The Year Of The Fox

[sacreblueits442]

39 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I think if we (and the other clubs directly suing Everton) are going to hold them liable for things that have happened specifically to us, I think that would have to be proven, yes. It's like (to use the example immediately above) a leading cyclist suing Lance Armstrong for what he did - I would think he would have to prove personal damage to himself that Mr Armstrong had directly inflicted upon him, rather than general harm inflicted upon a lot of entities (which is much easily provable - and has really already been proven).

...I would think that when they joined the cyclist tour they would all have signed up to certain rules, and governing processes regarding legal redress!!!

Certain things would have been agreed upon what would be dealt with by the governing body and an agreement no doubt that legal action was not prohibited against individual parties who had signed up for the tour.

[Spudulike]

2 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Compensation isn’t applicable though because they didn’t break the rules last season lol. The only team that have a case for compensation are Burnley, who would’ve survived because that’s the season they actually violated the rules.

So compensation is applicable 

[Spudulike]

2 hours ago, SemperEadem said:

But we did cheat with FFP, paid a fine to sort it out.

I think that it was accepted that rules had been interpreted differently and due to the ambiguity a lesser punishment applied. No suggestion of cheating. 

 

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/37546227/leicester-city-efl-agree-ffp-settlement-2013-14-breach

Edited 18 November 2023 by Spudulike
To add link

[Grebfromgrebland]

TBH I don't care about the facts here. Just punish them and compensate us £100m

[Lambert09]

I don’t think it will be that hard to prove. Everyone knew they were falling foul of ffp yet they still were moving crazy in the window. How can they claim

anything else.  

 

Last season they brought in about 90m from richalison and gordon. If they were truly trying to stick to the rules they would have banked it… but they didn’t they splurged another 70m on signings. plus probably large loan fees that aren’t included in that.

 

That includes onana for a huge fee. That’s just ignoring the rules with no attempt to get back in line of ffp. 

 

(id also expect the wages of those coming in was larger than that of the players departing on the whole) 

 

It’s not hard to point at their summer and ours and highlight that one team is following the rules and one is ignoring them. if you can’t prove that 250m worth of players doesn’t earn 2points than you need a new career 

 

 

Edited 18 November 2023 by Lambert09

[Dahnsouff]

Everton forum seems to think along the lines of “Yeah officer, I stole his car as it looked decent, but turns out it was shite, so can I get slap on the wrist?”

[surrifox]

Interesting analysis on the saga this morning . I’m not sure the Premier League could do anything differently . The club were repeatedly cautioned and offered the opportunity to make the necessary corrections but kept buying useless players at a huge outlay then came up with a load of nonsensical fanciful accounting proposals to meet the target . 
the PL warned them that the PSR calculation they had drafted would be rejected in March but they went ahead which meant that it was then certain that they would not be in a position to conclude the case by the end of the 2022/3 season and apply any points deduction last season . There would have been insufficient time for the independent commission to review the process .Had they been in a position to enforce this we would have stayed up as the penalty would have relegated them at our expense and as such we are first and foremost 

made to suffer a financial loss .

A line of reasoning of the “ we were crap and deserved to go down” is completely specious . 
The integrity of the process is threatened by such an egregious breach of the regulations and EFC need to be made to pay .