Notts F & Everton admit to breaking rules and face points deduction

[Qwerty]

23 minutes ago, cityfanlee23 said:

You could be right on that as the margins are so fine, and I think that’s one of the main reasons we will end up with compensation because of how fine those margins are. 
 

I guess the point I’m making across this entire debate is correlation and causation. 
going by the points per game, if we had signed Dean Smith a few weeks earlier we would also have stayed up, the problem is how do you prove that he would have won or drawn those extra games? On a similar line of reasoning it’s very difficult to categorically prove that signing doucoure was the reason they stayed up, because there are plenty of occasions where doucoure actually cost them points. 
 

Legally it’s a bit of a minefield but I think ultimately our case is stronger given how tight it was and will likely result in some form of compensation, but I wouldn’t be too sure about it. 

The reason behind our relegation was multi-factorial, and we would have to re-live last season in a parallel universe to know for certain if anything could have changed it. But I think that given Everton only needed to drop 2 points to be relegated, it’s reasonable to assume that their overspending made the crucial difference. And that crucial difference was one of the things that relegated us. 

[Scotch]

1 hour ago, cityfanlee23 said:

But how do you know we would have stayed up? 
The only real way to prove it would be to be able to show actual evidence that Everton stayed up as a direct result of the players they signed above the threshold allowed, how do you prove that? 
 

The vast majority of Evertons signings were awful and you could easily argue made them a worse team when you factor in how gutless they were week in week out, the only way to categorically state we would have stayed up would be to be able to pinpoint exactly why the players they signed were the reason they stayed up. I’m not sure that’s possible. 

Mcneil scored 2 winning goals last year. Tarkowski scored 1 as did Maupay (Southampton, Brentford, Arsenal and someone else I can't remember.)

 

All those players signed last year. Take out even one of those goals and we stay up. 

 

I get it's hard to argue that someone else wouldn't have scored that goal if it wasn't them but I don't think there is any doubt that their bending of the rules earned them at least 2 points last year and that two points makes all the difference.

[foxfanazer]

Hope the club focus their efforts elsewhere. Seems tacky to pursue this and indicative of modern society to blame others for our own failings 

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, cityfanlee23 said:

But how do you know we would have stayed up? 
The only real way to prove it would be to be able to show actual evidence that Everton stayed up as a direct result of the players they signed above the threshold allowed, how do you prove that? 
 

The vast majority of Evertons signings were awful and you could easily argue made them a worse team when you factor in how gutless they were week in week out, the only way to categorically state we would have stayed up would be to be able to pinpoint exactly why the players they signed were the reason they stayed up. I’m not sure that’s possible. 

 

You don't build a squad in a year, they've been signing players for years they couldn't afford and FFP runs in rolling blocks of time. 

 

And obviously nobody can definitively prove that anything that didn't happen in the past definitely would have under other circumstances. That's a completely moronic thing to expect of someone in an argument. And it won't be what we have to prove if we do sue them. 

 

This is just another stupid post. I'm sorry I don't mean to be overly aggressive I'm just, along with @urban.spaceman I think, utterly exasperated by how apathetic and blase people are about this and how many mental gymnastics Leicester fans want to do to exonerate Everton for wronging Leicester. Objectively so. 

 

Everton broke the rules and benefited from it, I don't understand how that isn't just unbelievably obvious to people. Of course they stayed up at our expense. 

 

And that's not mutually exclusive with "we were unforgivably bad last year." So were they, just even more embarrassingly so when you consider what THEY spent over the last five years. 

 

You can be angry with Top, Rodgers, Rudkin, Whelan and the state our club got in to. You can say we deserved to go down if it helps your healing process, whatever, maybe all of those things are true. But it's still also true Everton cheated us out of our Premier League place. That's no longer up for debate they've just been punished for it. 

 

 

[Matt]

I'm not gonna say this should have happened last season therefore we should have survived because we were dogshit for 2 years and deserved to go down, our dilly dallying not sacking Rodgers earlier deserves that alone.

 

Even if we'd done likewise breaking FFP rules last summer i'm fairly confident we were still going down under that management throughout this club last season.

 

I'd have relegated 4 last season and promoted an extra team instead.

 

Not to mention i'm actually enjoying football for the first time in a few years. **** the Premier League.

 

However, Everton have done wrong, for years, along with Man City, along with Chelsea and along with Villa, i'm certain there are others but those 3(4) instantly all come to mind straight away. I didn't think Everton would ever be punished because to do that they'd need to punish atleast 2 of the big 6 - never going to happen - Even with todays events, I still don't think anything will be done to Man City or Chelsea - not meaningful anyway. Therefore whilst not agreeing "they should have gone instead of us", I do agree with looking into legal proceedings on a technicality and suing them.

 

Edited 17 November 2023 by Matt

[Oasisedup]

Have to say all the hot take merchants saying "we got relegated because we weren't very good" "/ we should sue ourselves" / "we only have ourselves to blame" are really starting to irritate.

 

These arguments miss the point entirely.

[Finnegan]

9 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

Seems tacky to pursue this and indicative of modern society to blame others for our own failings 

 

It's not tacky to seek justice. 

 

Our club have done a really good job over the summer of recognising where we went wrong and learning from it. We've hired a manager who is fostering a much better and more positive atmosphere around the whole club and we've recruited far more intelligently, putting genuine stock in to finding good personalities as well as the right players and we're doing much better. 

 

We're not blaming anyone else for our mistakes, we've acknowledged where we went wrong and we've done a good job of starting to correct it. 

 

But a significant contributor to our relegation was our not reinforcing the squad last year adequately because of FFP when a major relegation rival was busy ignoring those same regulations. 

 

We have very strong grounds to feel wronged by that. 

 

You're allowed to have two thoughts in your head at the same time, people. You're allowed nuance. You can be angry at both our club AND theirs ffs. 

 

[Dahnsouff]

3 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

….

Everton broke the rules and benefited from it, I don't understand how that isn't just unbelievably obvious to people. Of course they stayed up at our expense. 

…

Not sure this is definitively true or knowable (and it’s also irrelevant outside of fans rage) but whether they broke the rules is no longer in doubt, so the only question we can ask is if them breaking FFP is enough grounds for them to be due payment to third parties such as ourselves.

[Foxaholic ME]

23 minutes ago, Qwerty said:

The reason behind our relegation was multi-factorial, and we would have to re-live last season in a parallel universe to know for certain if anything could have changed it. But I think that given Everton only needed to drop 2 points to be relegated, it’s reasonable to assume that their overspending made the crucial difference. And that crucial difference was one of the things that relegated us. 

Losing twice to the worse side in the division was one of the main reasons and we also lost twice to Bournemouth  and failed to beat 

[Foxaholic ME]

1 minute ago, Foxaholic ME said:

Losing twice to the worse side in the division was one of the main reasons and we also lost twice to Bournemouth  and failed to beat Everton    14 points which if gaind as expected would have seen us well up table

 

[Guest glasgowfox]

I get both sides of the argument but let's not forget.....they are scousers so f.ck them for every penny we can get 

[Fox1970]

One can imagine the vitriol LCFC would be receiving from Everton (and the footballing establishment in general as well) were it Everton who were relegated last season, whilst we stayed up, only to receive the 10 points deduction.

I think there would be much more noise about how to redress the benefits we gained from our cheating.

 

Let's not exonerate Everton with any casuistry or moral agonising. They cheated, and other clubs suffered, on the balance of probabilities, which is all you need to demonstrrate in civil issues like this. 

[fox in the sox]

9 minutes ago, Foxaholic ME said:

Losing twice to the worse side in the division was one of the main reasons and we also lost twice to Bournemouth  and failed to beat 

Maybe we would have beaten Bournemouth if we hadn’t got rid of Kasper and brought in other big money signings. We tried to do things right and have come out of it worse than Everton.

[Arriba Los Zorros]

2 hours ago, gw_leics772 said:

A good year for a token gesture punishment, or is that just me being cynical?

No mate not at all. The PL will have been monitoring how the table progressed, and picked their time carefully,  as they will want to ensure no points deduction leads to actual relegation of a 'big' team and potential serious court proceedings.

 

Funny how as soon as Everton start winning games and look like an actual team and get some distance from the bottom 3 (who are absolutely woeful) they release this 'punishment' . Totally contrived. An absolute joke.

 

Of course last year when Everton were in actual serious danger there was not a chance of any punishment but you can bet your bottom dollar if they had been safely in mid table towards end of the season it would have been applied then and they would have picked a reduced points total that would have kept their heads well clear of water too.

[Nalis]

4 hours ago, Bryn said:

I would say in these circumstances you should relegate them in addition to the teams that went down. We deserved relegation for being shit, they deserved it for cheating.

Does that mean the team to replace them would be.... Coventry? 

[Matt]

Also, would it be Everton we were suing or would it not be the PL (Or whoever it is that rules FFP), the establishment, for not enforcing their own rules and doing their own due diligence?  

 

Many clubs have and are quite clearly, blatantly and obviously breaking rules, it's not their fault they're seemingly (until now) allowed to clearly, blatantly and obviously break the rules.

 

The PL ****ing stinks, for many reasons.

 

Edited 17 November 2023 by Matt

[Arriba Los Zorros]

1 hour ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

This bloke is painfully unfunny. Like genuinely uncomfortable to watch. 

Thought your comment was harsh until watching it. Couldn't watch the whole video, it's that bad as you say uncomfortable. To say he's run out of material and should think about refreshing his repertoire would be kind.

 

Edit - took a look at the comments fully expecting others to be saying the same thing and it's full of people posting sincere crying with laughter emojis saying it's one of his best videos some bloke referred to it as 'world class' and they all loved a joke about him not being able to afford underpants. Guess we have just discovered some of the silent majority who make up the huge viewing numbers of Mrs Browns Boys christmas specials.

 

 

Edited 17 November 2023 by Arriba Los Zorros

[Legend_in_blue]

10 points isn't harsh enough imo.

[Fear Of The Fox]

8 minutes ago, Arriba Los Zorros said:

No mate not at all. The PL will have been monitoring how the table progressed, and picked their time carefully,  as they will want to ensure no points deduction leads to actual relegation of a 'big' team and potential serious court proceedings.

 

Funny how as soon as Everton start winning games and look like an actual team and get some distance from the bottom 3 (who are absolutely woeful) they release this 'punishment' . Totally contrived. An absolute joke.

 

Of course last year when Everton were in actual serious danger there was not a chance of any punishment but you can bet your bottom dollar if they had been safely in mid table towards end of the season it would have been applied then and they would have picked a reduced points total that would have kept their heads well clear of water too.

So you think Everton has the team to avoid relegation? I very much doubt it. Let's see your reaction in 4 months when they're still in the relegation zone and CAS decides to give them the 10 points back. 

[Arriba Los Zorros]

3 minutes ago, Fear Of The Fox said:

So you think Everton has the team to avoid relegation? I very much doubt it. Let's see your reaction in 4 months when they're still in the relegation zone and CAS decides to give them the 10 points back. 

well I fully hope you're right and in a season when the promoted teams were vaguely competent you'd have a poinnt (like next season looks likely to be) but they are just 2 points behind the mighty force of Luton Town in 17th. Pretty sure they'll survive by at least 10.

[bovril]

5 hours ago, Fox92 said:

They didn't stay up "at our expense". We were awful and deserved to go down.

 

Relegated over 38 games not one or two.

 

So starts more lawsuits.

Edit, sorry misread your post.

 

It is not contradictory to say the second sentence is true but the first is incorrect.

Edited 17 November 2023 by bovril

[MalletFox]

52 minutes ago, Scotch said:

Mcneil scored 2 winning goals last year. Tarkowski scored 1 as did Maupay (Southampton, Brentford, Arsenal and someone else I can't remember.)

 

All those players signed last year. Take out even one of those goals and we stay up. 

 

I get it's hard to argue that someone else wouldn't have scored that goal if it wasn't them but I don't think there is any doubt that their bending of the rules earned them at least 2 points last year and that two points makes all the difference.

You’ve provided some specifics there, I just don’t see how a neutral who is listening to Everton’s defence that spending more (beyond their FFP means), can reasonably be considered anything but a benefit to Everton’s performance. It’s entirely non-sensical to suggest otherwise.

[urban.spaceman]

34 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

You don't build a squad in a year, they've been signing players for years they couldn't afford and FFP runs in rolling blocks of time. 

 

And obviously nobody can definitively prove that anything that didn't happen in the past definitely would have under other circumstances. That's a completely moronic thing to expect of someone in an argument. And it won't be what we have to prove if we do sue them. 

 

This is just another stupid post. I'm sorry I don't mean to be overly aggressive I'm just, along with @urban.spaceman I think, utterly exasperated by how apathetic and blase people are about this and how many mental gymnastics Leicester fans want to do to exonerate Everton for wronging Leicester. Objectively so. 

 

Everton broke the rules and benefited from it, I don't understand how that isn't just unbelievably obvious to people. Of course they stayed up at our expense. 

 

And that's not mutually exclusive with "we were unforgivably bad last year." So were they, just even more embarrassingly so when you consider what THEY spent over the last five years. 

 

You can be angry with Top, Rodgers, Rudkin, Whelan and the state our club got in to. You can say we deserved to go down if it helps your healing process, whatever, maybe all of those things are true. But it's still also true Everton cheated us out of our Premier League place. That's no longer up for debate they've just been punished for it. 

 

 

 

 

 

For those still apathetic about this, or for anyone who thinks we shouldn't hold Everton accountable, there are some important distinctions to be made.

 

We were shit last season?

 

Yes.

 

Did we deserve to go down?

 

Yes - BUT - we deserved to go down on our own terms.

 

Everton have cheated, which has been proven.

 

And that cheating kept them in the league at our expense.

 

We adhered to the rules that they broke, and we suffered for it.

 

------

 

To add something about your point about Everton cheating us out of our Premier League status:

 

We had our future stolen from us - a future we deserved and EARNED with our title win - but not just by Everton, by the league and the bigger clubs. 

 

The whole "competition" is a corrupt entity.

 

I will never stop talking about this.

[MalletFox]

14 minutes ago, Matt said:

Also, would it be Everton we were suing or would it not be the PL (Or whoever it is that rules FFP), the establishment, for not enforcing their own rules and doing their own due diligence?  

 

Many clubs have and are quite clearly, blatantly and obviously breaking rules, it's not their fault they're seemingly (until now) allowed to clearly, blatantly and obviously break the rules.

 

The PL ****ing stinks, for many reasons.

 

Well, it is, 100% entirely their fault that they’ve broke the rules. This idea that “well everyone else is doing, so what the hell …” is a ridiculous analogy. And if people want to run their clubs/businesses like that, then it’s only a matter of time until they come unstuck. So I guess you could say, they tried it on, and have come unstuck!

[cityfanlee23]

50 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

You don't build a squad in a year, they've been signing players for years they couldn't afford and FFP runs in rolling blocks of time. 

 

And obviously nobody can definitively prove that anything that didn't happen in the past definitely would have under other circumstances. That's a completely moronic thing to expect of someone in an argument. And it won't be what we have to prove if we do sue them. 

 

This is just another stupid post. I'm sorry I don't mean to be overly aggressive I'm just, along with @urban.spaceman I think, utterly exasperated by how apathetic and blase people are about this and how many mental gymnastics Leicester fans want to do to exonerate Everton for wronging Leicester. Objectively so. 

 

Everton broke the rules and benefited from it, I don't understand how that isn't just unbelievably obvious to people. Of course they stayed up at our expense. 

 

And that's not mutually exclusive with "we were unforgivably bad last year." So were they, just even more embarrassingly so when you consider what THEY spent over the last five years. 

 

You can be angry with Top, Rodgers, Rudkin, Whelan and the state our club got in to. You can say we deserved to go down if it helps your healing process, whatever, maybe all of those things are true. But it's still also true Everton cheated us out of our Premier League place. That's no longer up for debate they've just been punished for it. 

 

 

More than entitled to your opinion, once again though FT is awash with emotion and not a lot of hard evidence imo. Hopefully, we come out on top of this particular legal case though as there is no way to change what happened. I hope you're right that we won't need to prove that they stayed up as a direct result of their breaches, because we can't. It's frustrating either way that punishments are always delayed since it's usually too late to rectify damage caused to others.