RowlattsFox Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 There needs to be a stronger word than depression in this case, depressed people don't fly planes into mountains. This is much more severe than that. Crazy how this level of mental illness can be kept under wraps, at least to an employer. He or his family would have knew he was ill else he wouldn't have gone to the doctors for a sick note. Should an employer notice something different in the days leading up to the tragedy? It now seems to me like a 'in the moment' decision where he had no thoughts about anyone else. Obviously we'll never know whether he was behaving differently on the day nor whether the pilot felt something strange about his co-pilots wellbeing.
stripeyfox Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 Unless you know someone that has suffered depression or suffered from it, it cannot be judged in a flippant way. As Finnegan says it is a 'serious' illness. People with depression are not always aware or open about it. it can not always be spotted by non-qualified people. Depression is not always a case of feeling fed up. It can go much deeper. Hence why the co pilot should have declared his depression and medical note to his employer. I'm not saying depression isn't a serious illness, but you cannot even begin to justify the murderous actions of this man by the fact he suffers from depression.
Finnegan Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 Hence why the co pilot should have declared his depression and medical note to his employer. I'm not saying depression isn't a serious illness, but you cannot even begin to justify the murderous actions of this man by the fact he suffers from depression. This.
David Guiza Posted 27 March 2015 Author Posted 27 March 2015 There needs to be a stronger word than depression in this case, depressed people don't fly planes into mountains. This is much more severe than that. Crazy how this level of mental illness can be kept under wraps, at least to an employer. He or his family would have knew he was ill else he wouldn't have gone to the doctors for a sick note. Should an employer notice something different in the days leading up to the tragedy? It now seems to me like a 'in the moment' decision where he had no thoughts about anyone else. Obviously we'll never know whether he was behaving differently on the day nor whether the pilot felt something strange about his co-pilots wellbeing. Exactly my thoughts. I've never suffered from depression myself, but I know people who have. And whilst everybody is different, of course, depression is usually quite a self destructive and subjective thing - very rare that it has resulted in anything anywhere near this scale, perhaps the only comparisons being shootings I guess. But even then, there's far more to it. Even looking at what Clark Carlise did, that was pretty extreme, but, the only person who could possibly have died from his actions was himself; baring an extreme line of events that lead to something happening to the driver of course. However, what the co-pilot is believed to have done is on another scale, there has to be more to it than 'he was suffering from depression'.
MooseBreath Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 The human mind is so complicated that, unfortunately, everyone has the potential to behave in a way that will cause harm to others. You included. Therefore depression is not to blame, I agree.
Finnegan Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 Clark Carlisle was also an extremely selfish ****. Just somewhat less horrendously homicidal with it.
Buce Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 Hence why the co pilot should have declared his depression and medical note to his employer.. You are judging his actions from the perspective of a well and rational mind. If he'd had a physical illness, he probably would have submitted the sick note; severe clinical depression (as opposed to just 'feeling a bit down') has the capacity to completely unbalance the rational mind.
Rincewind Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 I prefer to use the phrase 'contributing factor' Yes, depression is usually private and self harmful so there are other things to be considered in this case although his mental state as a result of depression cannot be ruled out.
The Railway Man Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 You are judging his actions from the perspective of a well and rational mind. If he'd had a physical illness, he probably would have submitted the sick note; severe clinical depression (as opposed to just 'feeling a bit down') has the capacity to completely unbalance the rational mind. If he was of sound mind enough to go to the Doctors and seek some help, surely if he can do that he can not kill 150 people or at least give his employers the sick note? If we are at a point where that's an excuse it's probably pointless even prescribing medication. I almost get the feeling some people geta kick out of trying to find an excuse for even the most evil acts, Hitler was probably not of a sound mind, do we change history not to judge him by his acts but say he was mentally disturbed and any of us could have been him?
MPH Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 Ridiculous to blame depression for mass murder. But let's say we do, if depressed people are potentially mass murderers, never mind stopping them being pilots, shouldn't they all be locked up? Depression CAN be the gateway to more severe mental health issues. So i wouldnt say it would of been depression itself but an undiagnosed manifestation with depression being the foundation, possibly.. This part isnt aimed at Mossey at all, but people have to remember that Depression isnt a " oh F*** it", attitude. Physiologically, its a genuince chemical inbalance. Some mental health issues are just a greater chemical inbalance.
Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 Can't just be depression as he would have planned what to do before he carried it out. If it was just a case of him wanting to end his own life, he'd surely have done it before he turned up to work? To wait until the pilot was out of the cabin, lock him out, fiddle with the controls and wait several minutes till himself and 149 others perished - that's either him being an almighty dickhead, or so mental that it was a miracle it wasn't picked up on sooner. I'm going for almighty dickhead/terrorist
Guest MattP Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 Surely if what people are saying is true regarding mental states we need to pretty much remove everyone from society who could suffer from things like depression?
Kent Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 It's worth noting that they said on the recording he seemed fine in conversation at the beginning of the flight then got more blunt during the mid-flight briefing, almost seems like he lost the plot midway through and decided to bin it. It's bizarre and of course we'll never know.
Buce Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 Therefore depression is not to blame, I agree. It's not as simple as that. Depression can often be an indicator, or manifistation of, deep underlying psychological issues.
stripeyfox Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 You are judging his actions from the perspective of a well and rational mind. If he'd had a physical illness, he probably would have submitted the sick note; severe clinical depression (as opposed to just 'feeling a bit down') has the capacity to completely unbalance the rational mind. I am judging him on what we know, which is admittedly not very much. What I'm saying it the manner in which he crashed the plane, or rather, programmed the plane to crash itself, indicated a calm, cunning and determined mind. He also then had ten minutes or so to think about it, and stop it. The CVR shows he wasn't an uncontrollable wreck, sobbing his socks off in the cockpit, but silent and "breathing normally". The fact that he knew he was ill, and still chose to go to work in a stressful occupation is unforgivable. It is reckless. Even if he wasn't planning to crash the plane or such an opportunity didn't present itself, piloting a passenger jet when you have been declared medically unfit to do so is still hugely irresponsible.
Buce Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 Surely if what people are saying is true regarding mental states we need to pretty much remove everyone from society who could suffer from things like depression? Unfortunately, that would mean removing everyone from society because everyone has the potential for mental illness.
RowlattsFox Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 There are many reasons why a person wouldn't use their sick note, financial reasons for example. which is why many depressed people continue to work. Not sure what a doctors process is when identifying depression but I'd be interested to know what the doctors notes were after his appointment. Could he or she have spotted a more severe illness?
Ric Flair Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 Some of the biggest mass murderers and psychopaths in the world have suffered from depression also, is it the depression that causes these individuals to do such horrific things? There's wanting to die yourself and then there's wanting to destroy the lives of others. That's deep mental illness which is hard to even slightly understand.
Guest Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 very surprised that air companies don't vet all pilots better than that and I'd have thought that they would be obliged to give pilots regular health checks. My son had to get checked out by a aviation authority doctor before he got his light aircraft licence!
MPH Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 Surely if what people are saying is true regarding mental states we need to pretty much remove everyone from society who could suffer from things like depression? Well if you are going to say that then it could also be argued that anyone who gets drunk has the harm to be a drunk driver and kill people... So should we remove anyone who gets drunk from society aswell?
StanSP Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 It's worth noting that they said on the recording he seemed fine in conversation at the beginning of the flight then got more blunt during the mid-flight briefing, almost seems like he lost the plot midway through and decided to bin it. It's bizarre and of course we'll never know. Or that was part of his plan...
Merging Cultures Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 I think we all need to be careful discussing depression. A number of people on here are probably suffering from it at the moment.
lgfualol Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 Some of the biggest mass murderers and psychopaths in the world have suffered from depression also, is it the depression that causes these individuals to do such horrific things? There's wanting to die yourself and then there's wanting to destroy the lives of others. That's deep mental illness which is hard to even slightly understand. Aye. I have a feeling this tragedy is similar to those like the Columbine School Shooting, Virginia Tech, etc. The large majority of them are suicidal, but it can't just be depression.
stripeyfox Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 very surprised that air companies don't vet all pilots better than that and I'd have thought that they would be obliged to give pilots regular health checks. My son had to get checked out by a aviation authority doctor before he got his light aircraft licence! I think all pilots have to undergo a medical annually, and twice annually if they are over 40. But I suppose it is not easy to screen for mental illness.
MPH Posted 27 March 2015 Posted 27 March 2015 very surprised that air companies don't vet all pilots better than that and I'd have thought that they would be obliged to give pilots regular health checks. My son had to get checked out by a aviation authority doctor before he got his light aircraft licence! We was passed fit to fly again by a medical Dr after several months out with depression... I see what you are saying.... maybe tighter regulations and all that...... But then that has the potential to open up a whole different ball game..... If the regulations makes it near on impossible for anyone who has had depression in the past to fly an airplane it can two two things.... 1. rid the air industry of the possibility of someone who depression from ever flying a plane. 2. have someone with depression ( or worse) hide that so as not to risk his career which would then leave them undiagnosed and therefore un medicated and/or untreated and would leave , in my opinion, much worse scenerios and in fact INCREASE the liklihood of this happening again. 3. Please can the grammar Nazi's ignore point 2.
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