French Air Crash

[GaelicFox]

Well yes you'd think so but he is probably not thinking rationally.

Actually that theory is very good thinking and very plausible , I can't think of many ways a normal pilot living in a city stages a suicide to die and not leave his parents wondering why he killed himself

Walk under a bus or a train and people would always draw that conclusion because of his sick notes from GP

I think this theory has legs .... Only the fact he couldn't turn off the black box we would never have known that This was suicide murder

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

I'd say there are more inconspicuous ways of snuffing it than flying a plane into a mountain at 700km/h.

 

Horrible tragedy and the thread has taken on a very serious tone but that did make me chuckle.

[Mike Oxlong]

I don't think I said it was irrelevant .... I wasjust saying in terms if mitigation for murder , depression is generally taken as totally irrelevant for mitigation

I think he was rational , everything he did was well thought out and planned , his breAthing wasn't pressured he was totally calm , totally calm breathing , never screamed , totally rational , I believe he knew and accepted what his faith was he wanted and welcomed his actions and the consequences of those ....

He calmly and rationally flew a plane into a mountain because he wanted to ....calm breathing , no panic

Why he wanted to do it ?? ....hopefully we will find that out But I suspect we will never know

Society had a fixation with suicide being totally irrational , for some it's a totally rational exit ...we should start to explore that concept and we might prevent some suicides ...

We forget in Japan even today Seppuku (Harakiri) is still acceptable , and totally rational

Depression as a mitigating factor for murder

http://www.inbrief.co.uk/court-proceedings/diminished-responsibility-criminal-law.htm

[GaelicFox]

Depression as a mitigating factor for murderhttp://www.inbrief.co.uk/court-proceedings/diminished-responsibility-criminal-law.htm

.....no it's not

Chronic Depression Is a medical diagnosis Dysthymia , it's not "depression"

To be Diagnised with Dysthymia (Chronic Depression) is not a GP signing you off work it's a clinical diagnoses by a psychiatrist

Also you find one case law where a defendant has proven THIER Dysthymia has been established as an abnormality of the mind to such an extent it could be proof of diminished responsibility, it is not sufficient to simply have the condition to get off , The defendant must prove that the condition was excessive when compared to that experienced by a reasonable person that's not going to happen with depression , visit our prisons they are full of people claiming mental disorder through depression ... But lost THIER case , Gartree near market Harborough is a Cat B lifer institute , they are all depressed in there and many were depressed when the murdered , but they are still in prison on a life sentence

[Vlad the Fox]

Could be possible that he'd been diagnosed with another serious illness, something terminal or degenerative maybe, this made him angry and/or brought his depression to the forefront and led him to seek revenge for the injustice he felt. Or possibly if as said they were treating him for another medical issue and he was on meds for depression is it possible that these could have effected and stopped any meds he may have been on for depression from working.

[Mike Oxlong]

Drop of Claridge

Yes it can be

Here is your one example

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/law-report-classic-direction-to-jury-on-provocation-defence-upheld-r-v-ahluwalia--court-of-appeal-criminal-division-lord-taylor-of-gosforth-lord-chief-justice-mr-justice-swinton-thomas-and-mr-justice-judge-31-july-1992-1538094.html

See final ground of appeal referred to in the last paragraph.

Show me where I have said that any depression, however minor could be a contributing factor.

In a medical sense chronicity refers to a continuing or consistent condition. As you yourself have said the facts behind the co pilots illness are not known. You do not know if he had been referred to a psychiatrist or whether he had only been seen by a gp.Without actually assessing the individual or at least having access to his medical records you have come to a pretty clear opinion as to him being "evil" as being the cause whilst discounting the possibility that depression could have been a significant factor. I find that surprising given your stated experience as an expert witness.

I've yet to meet an expert who has been prepared to accept that they got it wrong. I've met plenty of dogmatic ones though!

[Rincewind]

Maybe like a lot of these type of suicides/killers he wanted to go go out in a 'blaze of glory' He wanted to be remembered even if it meant as a mass murderer. He felt nobody cared for him etc etc etc.

It would not be for me. I want to be remembered for the good things I have done. Religions people might say he won't get in Heaven because he was an atheist but he was a decent person' but that will do.

Whatever the reason his name will go down in history.

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

I couldn't tell you his name even now, let alone years down the line.

[MPH]

He meant German history

[GaelicFox]

Drop of Claridge

Yes it can be

Here is your one examplehttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/law-report-classic-direction-to-jury-on-provocation-defence-upheld-r-v-ahluwalia--court-of-appeal-criminal-division-lord-taylor-of-gosforth-lord-chief-justice-mr-justice-swinton-thomas-and-mr-justice-judge-31-july-1992-1538094.html

See final ground of appeal referred to in the last paragraph.

Show me where I have said that any depression, however minor could be a contributing factor.

In a medical sense chronicity refers to a continuing or consistent condition. As you yourself have said the facts behind the co pilots illness are not known. You do not know if he had been referred to a psychiatrist or whether he had only been seen by a gp.Without actually assessing the individual or at least having access to his medical records you have come to a pretty clear opinion as to him being "evil" as being the cause whilst discounting the possibility that depression could have been a significant factor. I find that surprising given your stated experience as an expert witness.

I've yet to meet an expert who has been prepared to accept that they got it wrong. I've met plenty of dogmatic ones though!

major depressive disorder

Is not depression !

I'm planning a heinous act that will be remembered forever': Killer pilot's ex-girlfriend says he shared chilling prophecy before Alps crash and woke up from nightmares shouting 'we're going down'

thats what the pilot said to his girlfriend , still think depression caused this ?

[GaelicFox]

Well yes you'd think so but he is probably not thinking rationally.

He was thinking rationally , it's just his reasoning was pure evil

I'm planning a heinous act that will be remembered forever': Killer pilot's ex-girlfriend says he shared chilling prophecy before Alps crash and woke up from nightmares shouting 'we're going down'

[Itsthejoeker]

He was thinking rationally , it's just his reasoning was pure evil

I'm planning a heinous act that will be remembered forever': Killer pilot's ex-girlfriend says he shared chilling prophecy before Alps crash and woke up from nightmares shouting 'we're going down'

I take it you read the daily mail...

The actually quote was "One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then all will know my name and remember it."

That could have meant anything, there's people on my degree course who have said similar things about their chosen fields, doesn't mean they're going to become murderous psychopaths.

The nightmares are even more ridiculous, I bet he's not the first or last pilot to have a dream about crashing a plane, when you have 150 lives in your hands everyday of your working life I'm sure there's the constant worry that you'll crash.

[Finnegan]

You clearly do not comprehend what depression can do.

I have been on medication for severe depression for a few years now, and it is not something which is rational. Some days I feel fine, and have no problem, but on others, I seem to descend into a black void, from which there is no logical way out. Indeed, logic totally vanishes, and one's actions can be alarming to loved ones. I have, on one occasion attempted suicide, but that was thwarted by police and medics. On other occasions, I have, and still do, self harm, and have many scars on my arms and stomach. Reason does not come into the equation.

I could find your post insulting, but I will put it down to your ignorance of the facts about what depression can do to people. You are not alone, for unless one has suffered it, understanding does not come easily.

I'm not going to get in to a mental health pissing contest with you on a public forum.

All I'm going to say is you're massively off the mark and if that's all true you should probably know better than to make snap assumptions about your fellow posters.

You should also know and understand that my point in this thread has been consistently that there is a huge difference between wanting to privately take your own life and wanting to crash a plane with over a hundred other lives on board.

Depression alone doesn't do that.

[Mike Oxlong]

I was being balanced .....DEPRESSION does not cause people to fly planes into mountains , that's ridicules for anyone to even offer it as an explanation

Simply put ....this would be a mad or bad trial and he would have no justification based on his actions to claim he was of diminished responsibility , it was totally calculated and totally planned ....totally

I know depression is fecking serious , BUT it's not a reason for murder , or else we would lock everyone with depression up , we don't because people with depression are generally only a minor risk to themselves and generally very very slight risk to anyone else.

IF he was psychotic ....he wouldn't have been able to function ,,, he wasn't psychotic

This was just one sick twisted evil fecker ....a murdering psychopathic cvnt

You discount depression as even a possible contributory factor. You will know that depression isn't simply those cases where a person pops along to their GP seeking a few pills because they are feeling a bit cheesed off. There is a spectrum. You are willing to take a categorical stance even though you have not assessed him, seen his medical notes or have any other detailed reliable information relating to the extent of any mental health illness.

  

Depression affects rational thought to varying degrees.

I'm not saying it's an excuse but to my.mind it is certainly plausible as a significant contributory factor and I don't see it as such a black and white issue as you.

I said that it may be a significant contributory factor i.e not that it definitely is but that it may be.

  

major depressive disorder

Is not depression !

I'm planning a heinous act that will be remembered forever': Killer pilot's ex-girlfriend says he shared chilling prophecy before Alps crash and woke up from nightmares shouting 'we're going down'

thats what the pilot said to his girlfriend , still think depression caused this ?

Are you really telling me that major depressive order is not depression? Well I'm pretty sure it's not an ingrown toenail!

Major depressive disorder aka clinical depression!

It is depression that is at the top end of the spectrum.

Does everyone with depression have major depressive disorder? - no

Does major depressive disorder fall within the categorisation of depression?- yes

Do either of us know enough to be so certain about where the elements of "mad or bad" come into play on this event? - no

Is it therefore surprising that a professed forensic expert in the field of mental health makes such bold statements that this is an act of pure evil? - to my mind, yes

You said in an earlier post that planning suggested an absence of diminished responsibility and effectively seek to reassert that in your latest post with reference to what the girlfriend reports the co-pilot to have said. If you are asserting that planning discounts diminished responsibility please post your evidence in support. An unsound mind is capable of planning. Diminished responsibility is a partial defence by which a person argues that they should not be held fully liable for their actions by virtue of an impairment of their mental function. Major depressive disorder is capable of constituting such a partial defence. Major depressive disorder aka clinical depression is a form of depression. A person may be suffering from the disorder when they plan or premeditate a criminal act. Ergo, it is ridiculous to suggest that planning rules out mental health as a contributory element.

I'll wait till more evidence is available before coming to a decisive view.

[Carl the Llama]

I take it you read the daily mail...

The actually quote was "One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then all will know my name and remember it."

That could have meant anything, there's people on my degree course who have said similar things about their chosen fields, doesn't mean they're going to become murderous psychopaths.

The nightmares are even more ridiculous, I bet he's not the first or last pilot to have a dream about crashing a plane, when you have 150 lives in your hands everyday of your working life I'm sure there's the constant worry that you'll crash.

To be fair they've already changed piloting regulations and his name's in all the papers so mission accomplished I guess.

[casablancas]

This is not linked to a diagnosis of depression. This is based on 10 years of mental health nursing and 5 years of CAT therapy practise. Depression would not drive someone to act in this manner. With one suffering depression you'd feel; consumed, hopeless and empty. It would not drive one to act in the manner this man has. A depressed person would not want to be remembered forever, more like to want to just vanish into the shadows. This tragedy seems more ego driven possibly could be linked to s manic like illness. Unfortunately it's impossible to get an accurate diagnosis from someone who has passed. Either way this is a tragedy of the sort that unfortunately will live forever. RIP to all who have lost their lives and sympathies to all those who are suffering.

[Rincewind]

I know someone who has suffered mental illness as well as depression. A few years ago he was in the Towers, escaped and set light to a building in Leicester. he says for a few days he was one of the most wanted men in Britain. he is now controlling his condition with pills.

He is quite intelligent too. He knows the condition that he has and how to control it. his depression is kinda linked with his other problems but not the major one.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

I'm not going to get in to a mental health pissing contest with you on a public forum.

All I'm going to say is you're massively off the mark and if that's all true you should probably know better than to make snap assumptions about your fellow posters.

You should also know and understand that my point in this thread has been consistently that there is a huge difference between wanting to privately take your own life and wanting to crash a plane with over a hundred other lives on board.

Depression alone doesn't do that.

It's nice to know we have an "expert" on depression in our midst.

 

I will  agree, to strongly disagree with your assumptions.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Could be possible that he'd been diagnosed with another serious illness, something terminal or degenerative maybe, this made him angry and/or brought his depression to the forefront and led him to seek revenge for the injustice he felt. Or possibly if as said they were treating him for another medical issue and he was on meds for depression is it possible that these could have effected and stopped any meds he may have been on for depression from working.

I doubt we will ever know the real truth.

[MC Prussian]

I wonder if it's as simple as he wanted to kill himself and, being a pilot, crashing a plane into a mountain was the most surefire instantaneous death he could imagine.  It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to consider that once you've taken the decision to end your role in the universe that you may no longer have the highest level of concern for society at large.

 

Or maybe he decided that he was the only real consciousness in the world and it didn't make any difference if he took a load of AIs with him.

 

In any case I don't think he was trying to make a statement, not for now anyway.  If he was trying to say something about society he would have left a manifesto of sorts somewhere, but we haven't found one yet.

Yeah, but for that he could've just snatched a Piper by himself and crashed it somewhere on his own. Taking 149 more lives with him is a pretty twisted way of making your voice heard.

[Sir Fynwy]

I think I'll be taking more notice of the pilots actions when I go to Japan on lufthansa on Monday

[Sir Fynwy]

Seems that the likelihood was the guy had eye problems that could end his flying career and this tipped him over the edge

[DB11]

Seems that the likelihood was the guy had eye problems that could end his flying career and this tipped him over the edge

So maybe he just didn't see the mountain?

[Jaspa]

Headline on BBC at the moment is '78 DNA strands identified'

 

Pretty scary how mangled the passengers must've got, I thought the femur was known for being practically indestructible so isolate them at least and youve got your headcount(femur count). Could they have been comepletely vapourised?I put a crap joke in here earlier, too sombre  . . . Sorry

[StanSP]

Headline on BBC at the moment is '78 DNA strands identified'

 

Pretty scary how mangled the passengers must've got, I thought the femur was known for being practically indestructible so isolate them at least and youve got your headcount(femur count). Could they have been comepletely vapourised?

knock knock. whos there? the pilot, let me in! . . . Sorry

 

quite possibly. Given the speed the plane dropped and would have crashed in to the mountain (400mph?!), it would have been totally obliterated.