President Trump & the USA

[Captain...]

2 hours ago, bovril said:

Jezza the pussy grabber.

More of a tit slapper...

 

[ithuriel]

6 minutes ago, Captain... said:

More of a tit slapper...

 

Just staying abreast of the situation 

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, MattP said:

Absolutely mental. The people of the south already feel oppressed in many areas, they still feel the poverty from the war, they still see that everyday, now after all that some people still want to take their flag and effectively wipe out their history, if people want to continue to see people stream to the "alt-right" and even groups like the KKK - tearing down things like this will certainly help.

 

Ironically, the statue of Lenin still stands in Seattle, despite virtually all the Eastern bloc nations having tore theirs down.

Have to disagree here.

 

Regardless of the opinion on the success of failure of Reconstruction (and that's a big topic in itself and definitely open for debate), these people are pining after a legacy of a society that relied on chattel slavery for its success. No more, no less.

 

I certainly agree such a legacy shouldn't be destroyed and should be remembered (lest people look to repeat it) but most certainly not hailed with statues and the like in open areas...so put them all in a museum where people can learn about them there.

 

If that encourages more covert supremacists to become overt ones by actively joining the alt-right and groups like the KKK, then so be it - that can be dealt with.

 

Edit: You could argue that almost every older big society relied on slavery of some description...but none of them seem to be deified in the same way that some view the Antebellum South.

[Guest MattP]

13 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Have to disagree here.

 

Regardless of the opinion on the success of failure of Reconstruction (and that's a big topic in itself and definitely open for debate), these people are pining after a legacy of a society that relied on chattel slavery for its success. No more, no less.

 

I certainly agree such a legacy shouldn't be destroyed and should be remembered (lest people look to repeat it) but most certainly not hailed with statues and the like in open areas...so put them all in a museum where people can learn about them there.

 

If that encourages more covert supremacists to become overt ones by actively joining the alt-right and groups like the KKK, then so be it - that can be dealt with.

 

Edit: You could argue that almost every older big society relied on slavery of some description...but none of them seem to be deified in the same way that some view the Antebellum South.

I wish you were as tough with North Korea as you are with the south Mac! I don't think the statues should be removed Mac and I'm certainly not pining over the legacy of slavery, I think they should stay up as historical symbols of a country, there are nations all over the World that have statues of both sides of a civil war, one of them is our own. The idea we all go out in a mob and tear them all down because some people are upset is quite frankly baffling.

 

What really worries me though is the people tearing these down won't be stopping at things like this, that's not the sort of people they are. You know where we head after that.......

 

Quote

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

 

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

I wish you were as tough with North Korea as you are with the south Mac! I don't think the statues should be removed Mac and I'm certainly not pining over the legacy of slavery, I think they should stay up as historical symbols of a country, there are nations all over the World that have statues of both sides of a civil war, one of them is our own. The idea we all go out in a mob and tear them all down because some people are upset is quite frankly baffling.

 

What really worries me though is the people tearing these down won't be stopping at things like this, that's not the sort of people they are. You know where we head after that.......

 

 

Oh, don't get me wrong - the NK's are a bunch of paranoid authoritarian nutters and should they try anything they should be pounded into the ground (and they will be, should that happen). But they won't, purely because they know that as well as anyone else. They're not a threat to anyone but their own citizens - as has been evidenced by the recent slowdown in rhetoric and build up between them and the US just after everyone was running around like headless chickens.

 

How many other countries have statues to leaders who lost in a civil war that are then used as rallying points by the losing side to try to push the ideas of that side (as well as other ideas regarding racial supremacy) and perhaps even look to start it again? I would say not all that many, but I wouldn't be overly sure (you don't see either Roundheads and Cavaliers carrying flags in the street and running over folks, after all ).

 

As I said, I'm definitely not in favour of destroying them and the legacy of the South because I think it incredibly counter-productive and needless, so there is a way to preserve that legacy while removing those rallying points; put them in a museum, and let the history be learned there. I honestly think that to be an acceptable compromise.

 

Regarding your last sentence, I would argue slippery slope fallacy, but I have heard arguments regarding complete destruction/removal the same as you have, and I also think that would be totally wrong. Should the statues/symbols be removed, completely destroying them and making the legacy of the antebellum South forgotten would be almost as bad as it resurging again. Steps should absolutely be taken to ensure that does not happen.

[breadandcheese]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Oh, don't get me wrong - the NK's are a bunch of paranoid authoritarian nutters and should they try anything they should be pounded into the ground (and they will be, should that happen). But they won't, purely because they know that as well as anyone else. They're not a threat to anyone but their own citizens - as has been evidenced by the recent slowdown in rhetoric and build up between them and the US just after everyone was running around like headless chickens.

 

I'm not sure that's true.  They have technological know-how that and weapons that could be proliferated should they need money.  There are a number of countries and rogue elements that would be more than happy to evade the sanctions to acquire some of NK's technology.  For example, it's known that NK and Iran have a close relationship and NK has sold arms to Iran before. 

 

I should say that I'm not advocating attacking North Korea as they'll flatten Seoul and cause a bloodbath, but I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that North Korea are a harmless country to anyone bar their own citizens. 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

I'm not sure that's true.  They have technological know-how that and weapons that could be proliferated should they need money.  There are a number of countries and rogue elements that would be more than happy to evade the sanctions to acquire some of NK's technology.  For example, it's known that NK and Iran have a close relationship and NK has sold arms to Iran before. 

 

I should say that I'm not advocating attacking North Korea as they'll flatten Seoul and cause a bloodbath, but I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that North Korea are a harmless country to anyone bar their own citizens. 

As a nuclear-armed state, I have no doubt that the NK's could sell tech of that type to rogue elements should they want to - but again, they won't, simply because they know such trades would be traced back to them and the hammer would come down, especially if that tech was then used in terrible manner. Nuclear material, in particular, has unique chemical makeup that can tell you exactly where it was refined, even down to the particular reactor - and the moment that says "Yongbyon" the jig is up.

 

I'm sure NK has done deals with such nations as Iran and some Pakistani elements in the past, but they're not so stupid as to give out really horrible tech or knowledge that could used in an atrocity and then be traced back to them. That would be as good as attacking a nation themselves.

 

So yeah...I have my reasons for thinking they're perfectly content with running their own 1984-fiefdom right now.

[breadandcheese]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

As a nuclear-armed state, I have no doubt that the NK's could sell tech of that type to rogue elements should they want to - but again, they won't, simply because they know such trades would be traced back to them and the hammer would come down, especially if that tech was then used in terrible manner. Nuclear material, in particular, has unique chemical makeup that can tell you exactly where it was refined, even down to the particular reactor - and the moment that says "Yongbyon" the jig is up.

 

I'm sure NK has done deals with such nations as Iran and some Pakistani elements in the past, but they're not so stupid as to give out really horrible tech or knowledge that could used in an atrocity and then be traced back to them. That would be as good as attacking a nation themselves.

 

So yeah...I have my reasons for thinking they're perfectly content with running their own 1984-fiefdom right now.

I'm not sure there is the desire or will to confront NK if they sell technology. Supposing NK conduct a technology transfer to Iran or sell some intercontinental weapons, I honestly don't believe their would be a response.

 

Let's be honest, if the genocide and chemical weapons use seen in Syria over the last few years can't mobilise a global response, the proliferation of weapons by NK isn't going to. 

[Guest MattP]

47 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Oh, don't get me wrong - the NK's are a bunch of paranoid authoritarian nutters and should they try anything they should be pounded into the ground (and they will be, should that happen). But they won't, purely because they know that as well as anyone else. They're not a threat to anyone but their own citizens - as has been evidenced by the recent slowdown in rhetoric and build up between them and the US just after everyone was running around like headless chickens.

 

How many other countries have statues to leaders who lost in a civil war that are then used as rallying points by the losing side to try to push the ideas of that side (as well as other ideas regarding racial supremacy) and perhaps even look to start it again? I would say not all that many, but I wouldn't be overly sure (you don't see either Roundheads and Cavaliers carrying flags in the street and running over folks, after all ).

 

As I said, I'm definitely not in favour of destroying them and the legacy of the South because I think it incredibly counter-productive and needless, so there is a way to preserve that legacy while removing those rallying points; put them in a museum, and let the history be learned there. I honestly think that to be an acceptable compromise.

 

Regarding your last sentence, I would argue slippery slope fallacy, but I have heard arguments regarding complete destruction/removal the same as you have, and I also think that would be totally wrong. Should the statues/symbols be removed, completely destroying them and making the legacy of the antebellum South forgotten would be almost as bad as it resurging again. Steps should absolutely be taken to ensure that does not happen.

Well let's hope you are right they are a threat to no one but their own citizens, it's something you can't afford to get wrong if you are going to continue to allow them to develop weapons that could kill millions.

 

If it was upto people like you to debate this about why they should come down and offer arguments I would have a lot more confidence in the whole thing, but the groups that are demanding these go at the minute aren't the ones that will just stop at this, they seem to have an absolutely hatred for anyone different to them and they won't stop at that.

 

I watched the video of them pulling down that statue in North Carolina, they reminded me of mob I thought we had left behind many years ago, hopefully they the ones arrested will receive very long prison sentences to deter others.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, breadandcheese said:

I'm not sure there is the desire or will to confront NK if they sell technology. Supposing NK conduct a technology transfer to Iran or sell some intercontinental weapons, I honestly don't believe their would be a response.

 

Let's be honest, if the genocide and chemical weapons use seen in Syria over the last few years can't mobilise a global response, the proliferation of weapons by NK isn't going to. 

Depends on the nature of the tech and the results from it being used, I think. The Syrian chemical weapons were used internally, and if NK were to use such weapons against their own citizens (or sell chemical weapons that were then used internally in the same way) there wouldn't be a concerted response, as you say.

 

However, should weapons be sold by NK that were then used in a strike against another nation or by a terrorist group somewhere else...that would be a different thing entirely. I honestly think that would lead to a decisive response...and as such the NK's wouldn't risk it in the first place by selling without serious assurances.

 

Of course YMMV on this and I'm not saying it's gospel, but that's the way I see it.

 

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Well let's hope you are right they are a threat to no one but their own citizens, it's something you can't afford to get wrong if you are going to continue to allow them to develop weapons that could kill millions.

 

If it was upto people like you to debate this about why they should come down and offer arguments I would have a lot more confidence in the whole thing, but the groups that are demanding these go at the minute aren't the ones that will just stop at this, they seem to have an absolutely hatred for anyone different to them and they won't stop at that.

 

I watched the video of them pulling down that statue in North Carolina, they reminded me of mob I thought we had left behind many years ago, hopefully they the ones arrested will receive very long prison sentences to deter others.

I'm pretty sure that I am, but I'm purely going on the idea that regimes like theirs value self-preservation and preservation of power above all else, because of ego.

 

I have my own worries about such things getting out of control too, which is why it is indeed really important that if this is going to happen, it needs to be done in a controlled manner and by the book.

[Merging Cultures]

The statue thing has me in a quandary. I don't think the Cecil Rhodes statue in Oxford should be removed, nor the one at the Uni of Cape Town (it has gone btw). That's because they are not a rallying point for racists (except for the anti-white racists opposing them). However, I have seen the confederate statues used as rallying points for racists in the US (In particular one in Baltimore that was recently removed in the dead of night). Many (not all obviously) are not merely dressing up in confederate uniforms to remember the past and their family members. Many believe in white supremacy and they consider the confederate generals as heroes. My opinion on slave trade and white supremacy at the time is that many (probably most) people did not 'know any better', they were brought up to believe that white people are superior and black people are animals. So it is hard to criticise most of the people who supported those things. However, that doesn't mean we should have statues honoring those people, especially those who fought against the Union, which is now 'America'. It is clearly 'un-American' to align yourself with those views, and worst to turn out on confederate day, or other significant historic days, and wave the confederate flag and support people who did not want everyone to have the same rights. People can do those roll-playing battle things, where they all dress up, go to a field and re-enact the civil war. That's more about the history and stuff, not about turning out chanting 'Jews won't replace us'. Pro-black groups (in America, South Africa is another kettle of fish!) don't want other groups to have less rights than them, white supremacy groups do. So, as is being done, move the statues to museums, where white supremacist groups can't/shouldn't use them as rallying points, but the history and artwork won't be lost, but will be in a place where it can be remembered for what it is.

[Guest MattP]

31 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Depends on the nature of the tech and the results from it being used, I think. The Syrian chemical weapons were used internally, and if NK were to use such weapons against their own citizens (or sell chemical weapons that were then used internally in the same way) there wouldn't be a concerted response, as you say.

 

However, should weapons be sold by NK that were then used in a strike against another nation or by a terrorist group somewhere else...that would be a different thing entirely. I honestly think that would lead to a decisive response...and as such the NK's wouldn't risk it in the first place by selling without serious assurances.

 

Of course YMMV on this and I'm not saying it's gospel, but that's the way I see it.

 

I'm pretty sure that I am, but I'm purely going on the idea that regimes like theirs value self-preservation and preservation of power above all else, because of ego.

 

I have my own worries about such things getting out of control too, which is why it is indeed really important that if this is going to happen, it needs to be done in a controlled manner and by the book.

Now the bastards are removing confederate statues in Kentucky.

[Merging Cultures]

38 minutes ago, MattP said:

I watched the video of them pulling down that statue in North Carolina, they reminded me of mob I thought we had left behind many years ago, hopefully they the ones arrested will receive very long prison sentences to deter others.

Yeah, tearing them down, spitting on them, stamping on them etc. is very wrong. It's what I've seen in South Africa. Yes, the people depicted in the statues did a lot of harm, but it is still history, and they should be removed carefully and placed in museums.

[yorkie1999]

Hope they don't get their hands on statues in Egypt and Rome, after all slavery didn't exist in those days did it.

[lifted*fox]

 

Staying out of these threads mostly these days but can't say I'm surprised to pop in here and find MattP more concerned with / worried about the dangerous left pulling down statues glorifying historic pioneers of slavery than the alt-right / Nazi / white-supremacist groups emerging; unmasked, armed and in the belief that they're fulfilling the prophecy of the great Donald Trump. Jeeeeeez.

 

 

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, daz*dsb said:

 

Staying out of these threads mostly these days but can't say I'm surprised to pop in here and find MattP more concerned with / worried about the dangerous left pulling down statues glorifying historic pioneers of slavery than the alt-right / Nazi / white-supremacist groups emerging; unmasked, armed and in the belief that they're fulfilling the prophecy of the great Donald Trump. Jeeeeeez.

First thing I posted on it. 

 

" On some of it Trump is right, this is a gigantic error on the whole, you cannot in any way, shape of form ever, ever go far enough when condemning things like white supremacy and Nazism. These are things that are totally alien to any freedom loving, free thinking nation that values all men equally and he should have made that statement so clear so many times after the incident. His biggest mistake was to wait 48 hours to make a statement, you don't need to wait for all the facts to condemn someone killing another protester by driving a car into them."

 

But yeah I'm all about the great Trump, stick to CNN yeah.

[lifted*fox]

[Merging Cultures]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

His biggest mistake was to wait 48 hours to make a statement, you don't need to wait for all the facts to condemn someone killing another protester by driving a car into them."

He's known for being a stickler for the facts though!!

[MC Prussian]

Oh, look: Trump's got a new bimbo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/17/trumps-emotional-support-hope-hicks-announced-interim-white/

 

Hope Hicks? Can she kick it?

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, MC Prussian said:

Oh, look: Trump's got a new bimbo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/17/trumps-emotional-support-hope-hicks-announced-interim-white/

 

Hope Hicks? Can she kick it?

Bit sexist?

[MC Prussian]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Bit sexist?

Not really, you look at Trump's history with regards to hiring and firing staff members, and she's likely to suffer the same fate.

Although it's been said she's as close as it gets in terms of loyalty and trust within the inner circle.

Quote

Internally, she has joked that her title is not about strategically communicating with the press — it’s about strategically communicating with the president. She knows that telling Trump what not to say, ahead of an interview, is a losing proposition. She has accepted that he will say things that people find shocking, or upsetting — but she long ago made the decision that she deeply believes in Trump as a leader, and that she wasn’t going to change or judge a 70-year-old man whose career highs have been based on trusting his own instincts.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/22/hope-hicks-trump-profile-240832

 

Everyone's a "bimbo" in Trump World©.

Besides, I'm expecting a lot more and a lot more sensible play on words in Hicks' case soon.

[Buce]

 

The most dangerous US company you have never heard of:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/aug/17/sinclair-news-media-fox-trump-white-house-circa-breitbart-news

[MC Prussian]

Check out this Vice report on Charlottesville:

Mind-boggling. Perverse. Scary to think the US of A are in parts regressing to the Dark Ages. Some of these statements and conspiracy theories muttered. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

Oh, look: Trump's got a new bimbo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/17/trumps-emotional-support-hope-hicks-announced-interim-white/

 

Hope Hicks? Can she kick it?

Bet he's ragging her senseless

[lgfualol]

1 hour ago, MC Prussian said:

Check out this Vice report on Charlottesville:

Mind-boggling. Perverse. Scary to think the US of A are in parts regressing to the Dark Ages. Some of these statements and conspiracy theories muttered. 

Same bloke posted a video of himself crying because he was insulted on the internet. He is nuts. Someone should take away the guns he is always carrying and 'ready to use'.