Brexit - Has anybody actually changed their minds?

[Rob1742]

I didn’t vote, the reason being it was a complete farce. I didn’t understand it, which wasn’t surprising when you were being fed drivel. I was really angry at the time that there was a potential big change ahead, yet it was like choosing to be a mate of either of the two bullies at school.

 

So I didn’t vote as I said nobody deserved my vote, it was a farce and I said at the time what I thought of the campaign and those running it.

 

Would I vote if there was a second referendum? 100% yes. I’d vote to keep close to Europe as my point has been well and truly proved right. You just can’t trust our current politicians to look after this country in the correct way, and I would prefer to keep close ties to the European lot as I think its a safer option for us. I just don’t trust our decision making.

 

Personally the last few years have been a disaster. A company I dealt with went broke, driven by currency swings costing me £150k. Currency swings have cost me much more than that too. 

 

Business tend to just get on with it and accept stuff, they are a resilient bunch and aren’t as vocal as they perhaps should be. There are many horror stories out there since the referendum and it really has been catastrophic for many people.

 

So yes I’d vote to stay. Not because of the losses I have incurred, but just because I hate our politicians. I said it at the vote and they haven’t disappointed me ever since, they have just got much worse, if that was possible.

 

So for me it’s just about security and trust and I would prefer to be involved with the European lot than our shambles.

 

One point that I do know will be a massive issue upon exit. Our distribution centres are absolutely full of Poles, Romanians etc. Little towns have been created on the sides of these centres to house them. If they decide this place is no longer for them ( which they might as they are just following the money) then we will be getting immigrants from other parts of the world. It has to happen as we just don’t have the people here who will do the work. So I can’t see immigration coming down and we won’t be only bringing in Doctors etc, as the core that we need are the lower cost workers.

 

I hate politics and I hate politicians. I hate the fact that the referendum was full of propaganda. I hate the fact that Boris Johnson who was a major instigator in influencing the public through lies could become our leader. Then there is Corbyn and Abbot. So for me, keeping links with Europe who seem to have much more balanced leaders is what we all need at this moment. Maybe if we had better politicians at this time I would feel different.

 

 

[Crinklyfox]

In my working life I was one of two UK representatives on a European Technical Commission which met in Brussels quarterly and developed technical advisory papers and standards for the EU.  I worked with Engineers of similar background from other EU countries.  Most of them were on the commission for the same reason as I, to protect and represent their national interests; however there was also a common goal.  I got on pretty well with my counterparts from the other member countries and felt that we were working for the common good.

 

I wanted the UK to retain its influence within Europe.  I didn't like a lot of things about the EU but it's not something that can be ignored.  Altogether I felt that it would be better for the UK to remain in the EU than leave.

 

Following the referendum we should now be committed to leave.  Leaving under the deal offered will help the UK retain some of it's trade benefits but our influence is gone.  We will be faced with having to obey EU laws and regulations that we have no influence in shaping.  Even if we had a second referendum and voted to remain our credibility as Europeans is shot.  

 

I recall the great Ayrton Senna.  He would go up against other drivers and create situations where one of them had to pull out or a crash would result.  Once the other driver had given way he was in Ayrton Senna's pocket for good.  That's how I feel about the deal May has agreed with the EU at the cost of a couple of Brexit Secretaries and a few Ministers.  If we accept this deal this will be welcomed by business but have a negative effect on the constituent nations of the UK.  I can think of few countries that would risk their sovereignty for a trade deal.

 

So having wanted us to remain I now feel that we should leave as the advantages of remaining are severely reduced.  I also feel that it would be in our long term national best interest not to accept the May deal.  This would mean leaving without a deal (which will cause the EU and particularly the Irish Republic some problems) and which will most likely cause the UK financial problems which it may take five to ten years to overcome; however this is preferable to the damage to our sovereignty the May deal would cause.

[Voll Blau]

Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere, but Peter Oborne's take on the situation is well worth a read...

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/

 

[ClaphamFox]

There are growing rumours that if we're not granted an extension by the EU this week, May will just revoke Article 50, effectively making the default position no Brexit rather than leaving with no deal. That would make things interesting...

[Alf Bentley]

7 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

There are growing rumours that if we're not granted an extension by the EU this week, May will just revoke Article 50, effectively making the default position no Brexit rather than leaving with no deal. That would make things interesting...

 

Unlikely that she alone would revoke, surely, as it would bring down massive Tory Party opposition on her head and destroy the Tory party electorally?

 

But very likely that by the end of the week parliament we'll be choosing between No Deal, Revoke and possibly a Long Extension....in which case, Revoke becomes quite likely. Christ! Imagine the public reaction!

 

- Seems unlikely that May can or will give enough ground for Corbyn to agree terms on a deal (too much opposition in Tory Party)

- Seems equally unlikely that Corbyn can or will give enough ground for May to agree terms on a deal (too much opposition in Labour Party)

-> On Wed, May goes to EU asking for her 30th June extension but with no viable plan for resolving Brexit, which EU quite reasonably sees as essential

-> EU will not agree 30th June extension, may not agree any extension (so No Deal on Friday remains the default position) or may offer a much longer extension, including Euro elections....which May would probably accept

-> If May is unable to get that longer extension through parliament (likely as even Tory moderates oppose it), it's either Revoke by Friday or No Deal on Friday....I suspect Parliament would order May to revoke

 

I may be miscalculating somewhere along that chain, and there are other factors that could intervene (e.g. Parliament voting for another solution or passing a no-confidence vote leading to a general election), but No Deal and Revoke are now both increasingly likely outcomes, it seems to me....

 

Despite having voted Remain and despite enjoying the prospect of the massive damage that such an outcome would do to the Tory Party, I cannot see Revoke in these circumstances as a good outcome for our democratic future.

If Parliament cannot agree any form of Brexit (Soft Brexit now the best outcome for me), then a Referendum would be better for our democracy than just Revoke ....though neither is ideal. 

[Grebfromgrebland]

She could pirogue parliament and go for no deal. 

[Grebfromgrebland]

Which is effectively what she's doing by keeping her red lines.

[gw_leics772]

10 hours ago, ClaphamFox said:

There are growing rumours that if we're not granted an extension by the EU this week, May will just revoke Article 50, effectively making the default position no Brexit rather than leaving with no deal. That would make things interesting...

Im a leaver but ive been saying for a while that this should be our route.

We dont need permission to extend. Just revoke it and this time actually plan for brexit. You know like in advance.

 

The downsides are 1. Purely political. The bullshit message it gives rather than what it should be. Us taking back control of our destiny. If that means us playing a meaningless part in euro elections. So what.

 

2. This is the biggie for me. Despite the "voting" public favouring brexit. Our representatives never wanted it and are seemingly incapable of making it happen, and the inherent lack of trust in them is what ****s this and makes remaining our real default position.

 

Who knows how this will play out but in terms of being in control, this appears to me to be the obvious answer.

[fuchsntf]

We need a Brutus,to take us into Brexit....forget ide s of March,we need an ide of May...

A Brexit Pole,instead of May Pole!!

[Foxhateram]

This post has content you may not agree with, if not then scroll by.

 

I am genuinely trying not to whirl into a frenzy debate here. But I still cannot fathom for the life of me. How after the last 3 years anyone can still vote leave? 

 

Are you an ostrich? Have you had your head buried in the sand? 

 

Financial advisers are saying a no deal Brexit will lead us to a recession and financial insecurity. The predicted recession is likely to be worse than in 2008. We've been scrimping as a country since 2008, making cuts after cuts and it finally now seems like we might be ready to start improving things again. But your leave vote will make us start all that again.

 

It wasn't long ago the EU was helping us out of the last referendum and supporting us in reforming our banks. 

 

We won't have control of our own laws at all, that's a myth. Most of the laws listed in the leave campaign that they were supposedly going to change, are actually international laws which we have no control of. 

 

Have you seen the trade links we are planning to make? Do you really think those links are going to reap the same rewards as our current links with Europe? 

 

Have you factored in the extra cost of taxes we'd have to pay when transporting goods through Europe? 

 

How about immigration? That won't change, as the numerical statistics are mostly set by international laws. 

 

Freedom of movement.... Green cards and extra tax on traveling to EU countries. This is a perk of leaving is it? We get good old fashioned passports though I suppose.

 

I know there are positives to leaving as well (somewhere in the small print) but in a world where people like Trump and Putin are in power, I think together is stronger (not just in battle terms). Going it alone in the current climate the world is in, both financially and in terms of terror and possible war, I think is genuinely a crazy idea. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lionator]

45 minutes ago, Foxhateram said:

This post has content you may not agree with, if not then scroll by.

 

I am genuinely trying not to whirl into a frenzy debate here. But I still cannot fathom for the life of me. How after the last 3 years anyone can still vote leave? 

 

Are you an ostrich? Have you had your head buried in the sand? 

 

Financial advisers are saying a no deal Brexit will lead us to a recession and financial insecurity. The predicted recession is likely to be worse than in 2008. We've been scrimping as a country since 2008, making cuts after cuts and it finally now seems like we might be ready to start improving things again. But your leave vote will make us start all that again.

 

It wasn't long ago the EU was helping us out of the last referendum and supporting us in reforming our banks. 

 

We won't have control of our own laws at all, that's a myth. Most of the laws listed in the leave campaign that they were supposedly going to change, are actually international laws which we have no control of. 

 

Have you seen the trade links we are planning to make? Do you really think those links are going to reap the same rewards as our current links with Europe? 

 

Have you factored in the extra cost of taxes we'd have to pay when transporting goods through Europe? 

 

How about immigration? That won't change, as the numerical statistics are mostly set by international laws. 

 

Freedom of movement.... Green cards and extra tax on traveling to EU countries. This is a perk of leaving is it? We get good old fashioned passports though I suppose.

 

I know there are positives to leaving as well (somewhere in the small print) but in a world where people like Trump and Putin are in power, I think together is stronger (not just in battle terms). Going it alone in the current climate the world is in, both financially and in terms of terror and possible war, I think is genuinely a crazy idea. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah but project fear.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Foxhateram said:

I am genuinely trying not to whirl into a frenzy debate here. But I still cannot fathom for the life of me. How after the last 3 years anyone can still vote leave? 

 

Are you an ostrich? Have you had your head buried in the sand? 

 

Financial advisers are saying a no deal Brexit will lead us to a recession and financial insecurity. The predicted recession is likely to be worse than in 2008. We've been scrimping as a country since 2008, making cuts after cuts and it finally now seems like we might be ready to start improving things again. But your leave vote will make us start all that again. 

The most recent forecasts have said that even in the event of No Deal we should avoid a recession.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/no-deal-brexit-would-not-trigger-recession-department-of-finance-says-1.3774803
 

Some say we'll enter a small recession, although this isn't just Brexit related but comes from Trump's trade war with China - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/06/no-deal-brexit-would-plunge-uk-economy-into-recession-oecd.

Though I wouldn't advise paying too much attention to them anyway given the appalling record of these forecasters since the referendum result.

[MC Prussian]

On 04/04/2019 at 20:59, Grebfromgrebland said:

 

I'll never change my mind on brexit. If anyone has trouble deciding whether brexit is a good idea just take a look at who wants it and ask yourself are you one of them? Or do you want to be associated with them?

 

@MattP @MC Prussian

 

 

According to a 2016 vote, close to 52 percent of the voting population in the UK wanted a Brexit, and so they decided.

 

Looking back, are you seriously trying to imply that no media outlet tried to or manage to publish the ties of said media houses for everyone to see?

Do you think the media influence of said billionaires was unbeknownst to the UK public back in 2016?

Do you think the voting population has no other means of communication or information in order to make relatively profound decision? Social Media and YouTube are valuable assets and shape the discussion accordingly, complementing rounding off the picture painted in the Mainstream Media.

 

These billionaires were working and influencing way before a potential Brexit was even on the table. Do you think they could force a Brexit when a popular vote is on? It's a massive undertaking to influence up to 46 million people in one's favour. It reeks of a conspiracy theory...

 

Also, no word on their input on charitable causes? And no word on the failure of the UK politics in order to combat tax evasion in places such as Guernsey or the Bermudas? Maybe somebody needs to tighten that screw and be more convincing when it comes to tax laws and their execution.

Richard Desmond, for example, has seen his empire grow independent of Labour and the Tories rule...

Listen, I am by no means a fan of people such as Rupert Murdoch. But it has to be asked why it is that it could come this far and why so few people control so many media outlets. I know of similar cases in Germany, for instance. There, a handful of families own most of the press: Springer (Bild), Mohn (Bertelsmann), Burda, Madsack (Northern Germany), DuMont (Cologne area), Schaub (Southern Germany), Funke (Ruhrgebiet).

And despite being part of the EU, there has been no crackdown on this one-sided media appropriation as of yet. It's as if it's secretly tolerated...

Ok, so much for my own theory...

 

And maybe, just maybe - despite the impressive 72% voter turnout - more people need to cast their vote when faced with such a monumental decision to make. So, encourage them to participate, but don't demonize them for not putting in their paper.

 

As I've said many times, more people need to be educated about the history of the EU, its roots and (initial) core values, how it has transformed, why it has transformed, what its current goals are, who's benefitting from the policies and why a political union makes sense, and why a currency union doesn't.

 

UK politicians from all sides should come under scrutiny and their roles examined, their motives questioned and replaced by politicians who actually represent their voter base and aren't in it for personal prestige, money or power/influence in Brussels alone.

 

Let's say you get to another popular vote and the result is the same, with more people wanting to leave the EU than staying - would you accept the outcome this time around?

Not that it's rather ridiculous trying to push for another popular vote on the same subject in the first place just because the initial result wasn't in your favour.

 

Are we then going to see a third popular vote with people not content with the second result, and so on? At some stage, you've got to accept the current state of affairs and build to a better future based on its implications, whether that's with or without the EU.

 

Other countries cope fine with just being part of the Schengen treaty, or rather, EFTA and the EEA.

Life goes on regardless of this result, I'm sure the UK economy would recover and a valuable agreement that sees both parties benefit established.

Edited 9 April 2019 by MC Prussian

[SpacedX]

7 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Social Media and YouTube are valuable assets and shape the discussion accordingly, complementing rounding off the picture painted in the Mainstream Media.

 

Are you actually being serious?

[Buce]

 

Conditions for short delay 'not met':

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/09/conditions-for-short-brexit-delay-have-not-been-met-says-berlin

[MC Prussian]

3 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Are you actually being serious?

What media do you rely on when making political decisions when a vote is on?

 

There's plenty of highly valuable political, historical and socio-economic discussions to be found on YouTube, featuring highly apt, knowledgeable and renowned guests, be it economists, politicians or professors. Shows/talks that exceed television's reliance on classical formats.

They can be much more in-depth and treat serious issues for two hours or even longer.

Edited 9 April 2019 by MC Prussian

[SpacedX]

2 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

What media do you rely on when making political decisions when a vote is on?

 

Certainly not the comments section of an entertainment platform.

 

3 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

There's plenty of highly valuable political, historical and socio-economic discussions to be found on YouTube, featuring highly apt, knowledgeable and renowned guests, be it economists, politicians or professors. Shows/talks that exceed television's reliance on classical formats.

They can be much more in-depth and treat serious issues for two hours or even longer.

Absolutely. 

 

Such a shame that such insightful evidence based content does so little to inform public opinion. The majority would sooner form an opinion based upon a four line meme on a FB feed. Social media is responsible for the emergence of populism - far from building bridges or cohesion, erecting barriers and increased polarisation and ultimately -  Trump and Brexit. Far from being edifying or educational, the internet seems to have exerted the opposite effect. 

 

You Tube is so infested with lucrative conspiracy theory, confirmation bias, pseudoscience, snake oil salesmen, agenda, and general woo****ery that in anticipation of substantial brand damage ahead, they are now reluctantly forced to act. 

[MC Prussian]

3 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Certainly not the comments section of an entertainment platform.

 

Absolutely. 

 

Such a shame that such insightful evidence based content does so little to inform public opinion. The majority would sooner form an opinion based upon a four line meme on a FB feed. Social media is responsible for the emergence of populism - far from building bridges or cohesion, erecting barriers and increased polarisation and ultimately -  Trump and Brexit. Far from being edifying or educational, the internet seems to have exerted the opposite effect. 

 

You Tube is so infested with lucrative conspiracy theory, confirmation bias, pseudoscience, snake oil salesmen, agenda, and general woo****ery that in anticipation of substantial brand damage ahead, they are now reluctantly forced to act. 

I think the majority of Twitter users need to be banned or Twitter abolished forever. In my eyes, it's the main source of Online Rage (well, mostly faux rage) and people putting on an online persona rather than being truly genuine. It's a narcissist's and psychotherapist's wet dream come true.

 

As for Facebook, it's a similar story with many fake profiles or populist pages trying to stir trouble or act as agents provocateurs. Sadly, they suffocate earnest debate coming from reputable sources.

 

And let's not kid ourselves - propaganda has been around way before Social Media came along. The main difference is the speed at which it travels and its reach these days.

[SpacedX]

1 minute ago, MC Prussian said:

I think the majority of Twitter users need to be banned or Twitter abolished forever. In my eyes, it's the main source of Online Rage (well, mostly faux rage) and people putting on an online persona rather than being truly genuine. It's a narcissist's and psychotherapist's wet dream come true.

 

As for Facebook, it's a similar story with many fake profiles or populist pages trying to stir trouble or act as agents provocateurs. Sadly, they suffocate earnest debate coming from reputable sources.

 

And let's not kid ourselves - propaganda has been around way before Social Media came along. The main difference is the speed at which it travels and its reach these days.

Agree entirely. 

 

The empty vessel makes the loudest sound. 

[MC Prussian]

I think this BBC piece sums it all up nicely:

Just one big drama, great fodder for the media to fill their slots. The longer this goes on, the better for them.

[fuchsntf]

4 hours ago, MattP said:

The most recent forecasts have said that even in the event of No Deal we should avoid a recession.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/no-deal-brexit-would-not-trigger-recession-department-of-finance-says-1.3774803
 

Some say we'll enter a small recession, although this isn't just Brexit related but comes from Trump's trade war with China - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/06/no-deal-brexit-would-plunge-uk-economy-into-recession-oecd.

Though I wouldn't advise paying too much attention to them anyway given the appalling record of these forecasters since the referendum result.

Does any same person,still use forecasts after the last 30 years....

[Buce]

 

Not content with holding the country to ransom, the Little Englander weirdos in the ERG are now making threats to the EU:

 

"My message to the European Council tomorrow night would be as follows:

“This is the 21st century and you cannot hold a nation captive against their will. There is no point granting a temporary extension to kick the can down the road in the hope that we will finally ratify the withdrawal agreement, as we never will.

“If, however, you attempt to hold us in the European Union against the democratically expressed will of the British people then, in return, we will become a “Trojan horse” within the EU, which would utterly derail all your attempts to pursue a more federal project.

“A new Conservative government, led by someone like Boris Johnson or Dominic Raab, might vote down your budget, veto your attempts at greater military integration, and generally make it impossible for you to bring about the more federal project in which you so desperately believe” ...

So my earnest message to the European Council is simple. Brexit has already gone on long enough.

If you now try to hold on to us against our will, you will be facing Perfidious Albion on speed. It would therefore be much better for all our sakes if we were to pursue our separate destinies, in a spirit of mutual respect.

As Boris Johnson recently quoted Moses’ warning to Pharaoh – Let my people go!” - Mark Francois

 

 

Edited 9 April 2019 by Buce

[Carl the Llama]

Wtf did I just read?

[Innovindil]

11 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Wtf did I just read?

The ramblings of a mad man by the look of it. 

[Buce]

14 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Wtf did I just read?

 

3 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

The ramblings of a mad man by the look of it. 

 

Yeah, I forgot to attribute it.

 

Mark Francois, of course.