Brexit - Has anybody actually changed their minds?

[RonnieTodger]

I actually went to the polling station still not being able to decide. I saw the ballot paper and just voted for leave, but as soon as the results were coming in, I realised it's not what I wanted. I'd categorically vote for remain in another referendum.

 

If there is another one, Remain should have to win on aggregate; League Cup semi-final style. 

Edited 5 April 2019 by RonnieTodger

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said:

Fair enough but presuming you don't mean the whole commission (that would be a bit like complaining that we don't elect civil servants to the home office), just those with the job title of Commissioner, then I'd retort that the selection process and office length make it a whole lot more democratic than one of our key legislative bodies, namely the HOL.

House of Lords abolishion should be the next campaign after Brexit. 

[peach0000]

35 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Fair enough but presuming you don't mean the whole commission (that would be a bit like complaining that we don't elect civil servants to the home office), just those with the job title of Commissioner, then I'd retort that the selection process and office length make it a whole lot more democratic than one of our key legislative bodies, namely the HOL.

You're are being overly picky due to an apparent superiority complex you seem to have on this issue. The European Commission acts as the executive, ie the body the proposes the legislation for the European Parliament. Yes you're correct that this body is made up of thousands and thousands of civil servants but it is also run by officials that aren't democratically elected. Where the commission differs from the HoL is in it's primary function, that of proposing legislation which in a normal system is done by the government. The HoL on the other hand just ratifies and amends legislation and has very little power ie if the HoC wants the HoL bypassed then that can happen. 

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, peach0000 said:

You're are being overly picky due to an apparent superiority complex you seem to have on this issue. The European Commission acts as the executive, ie the body the proposes the legislation for the European Parliament. Yes you're correct that this body is made up of thousands and thousands of civil servants but it is also run by officials that aren't democratically elected. Where the commission differs from the HoL is in it's primary function, that of proposing legislation which in a normal system is done by the government. The HoL on the other hand just ratifies and amends legislation and has very little power ie if the HoC wants the HoL bypassed then that can happen. 

You should be in the cinema business with projection like that...

 

Fact is I just disagree with how you frame your argument, especially now you've gone on to defend the notion that the EC is a worse slight on democracy than the HOL.  Reading between the lines it seems you simply disagree with the idea of a continental governing system because being realistic there will always be a need to fill vital roles with candidates who aren't directly elected by the citizens of every member state otherwise you risk having too many elections too often and for people in roles hardly any private citizens knows anything about (I'd be surprised if anybody on here can even name a Comissioner - Juncker aside - off the top of their heads, let alone explain why they don't think they should be in the role and who they think would be better suited for it) so for my part I think the EC approach is a good compromise where the candidates are voted in on an indirectly democratic basis with our elected representatives voting on our behalf.

[Strokes]

51 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

You should be in the cinema business with projection like that...

 

Fact is I just disagree with how you frame your argument, especially now you've gone on to defend the notion that the EC is a worse slight on democracy than the HOL.  Reading between the lines it seems you simply disagree with the idea of a continental governing system because being realistic there will always be a need to fill vital roles with candidates who aren't directly elected by the citizens of every member state otherwise you risk having too many elections too often and for people in roles hardly any private citizens knows anything about (I'd be surprised if anybody on here can even name a Comissioner - Juncker aside - off the top of their heads, let alone explain why they don't think they should be in the role and who they think would be better suited for it) so for my part I think the EC approach is a good compromise where the candidates are voted in on an indirectly democratic basis with our elected representatives voting on our behalf.

I do know who the British and Irish commissioners are off the top of my head. I’m not great on remembering foreign names though, so it’s only Junker after that but I’ve read up on most before.

The commission does not feel like a direct representative, and it wields quite some power without much scrutiny. 

People on here complain about the Tories being corrupt and Tory cronyism but the EU is littered with the very same complaints and it seems to get a free pass. Have the budgets ever passed an audit?

 

The guy puts forward a respectable argument and you decide you don’t believe him. He hasn’t said he disagrees with a continental governing system but that he disagrees with such indirectly elected representatives having so much power. It’s surely not too much to ask for the 28 commissioners to be elected by individual nations is it?

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

You should be in the cinema business with projection like that...

 

[Carl the Llama]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I do know who the British and Irish commissioners are off the top of my head. I’m not great on remembering foreign names though, so it’s only Junker after that but I’ve read up on most before.

The commission does not feel like a direct representative, and it wields quite some power without much scrutiny. 

People on here complain about the Tories being corrupt and Tory cronyism but the EU is littered with the very same complaints and it seems to get a free pass. Have the budgets ever passed an audit?

 

The guy puts forward a respectable argument and you decide you don’t believe him. He hasn’t said he disagrees with a continental governing system but that he disagrees with such indirectly elected representatives having so much power. It’s surely not too much to ask for the 28 commissioners to be elected by individual nations is it?

The point I'm making is when you appear to be fine with representative democracy and unelected legislators at home then it doesn't ring true to complain about the same at a much broader level where such things make more sense purely on the scale of the operation.

[Strokes]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

The point I'm making is when you appear to be fine with representative democracy and unelected legislators at home then it doesn't ring true to complain about the same at a much broader level where such things make more sense purely on the scale of the operation.

I’m not ok with it at home at all.

Where have you drawn that conclusion from?

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Strokes said:

I’m not ok with it at home at all.

Where have you drawn that conclusion from?

I wasn't talking to you when I said it, nosey!

[oxford blue]

This does not answer the question but it is interesting to re-visit the leaflet sent to every household before campaigning started. It was a one sided view of why the UK should remain in the EU 

The government believes it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU.

This is the way to protect jobs, provide security, and strengthen the UK’s economy for every family in this country...The government believes it is in you and your family’s best interests that the UK remains in the European Union.

It did also say

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide...The referendum is a once in a generation decision.

The 2017 election had both main parties promising to support the referendum result, although only 30% of MP's want this. Even some of those who want to leave are voting against the opportunity to do so because the proposed deal is not 'Brexity' enough.

I think it important to reflect the refererndum result is implemented, without a confirmation referendum, unless it did not have the option to remain.( How to get there, I have no idea, but can hope). However, at the next general election, if there was a majority party promising another referendum, that is the time to have one.

 

 

[gw_leics772]

3 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

You should be in the cinema business with projection like that...

 

Fact is I just disagree with how you frame your argument, especially now you've gone on to defend the notion that the EC is a worse slight on democracy than the HOL.  Reading between the lines it seems you simply disagree with the idea of a continental governing system because being realistic there will always be a need to fill vital roles with candidates who aren't directly elected by the citizens of every member state otherwise you risk having too many elections too often and for people in roles hardly any private citizens knows anything about (I'd be surprised if anybody on here can even name a Comissioner - Juncker aside - off the top of their heads, let alone explain why they don't think they should be in the role and who they think would be better suited for it) so for my part I think the EC approach is a good compromise where the candidates are voted in on an indirectly democratic basis with our elected representatives voting on our behalf.

Im with @peach0000, the more you post, the more your superiority complex comes to the fore.

 

I admire your confidence, but your delivery sucks.

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, gw_leics772 said:

Im with @peach0000, the more you post, the more your superiority complex comes to the fore.

 

I admire your confidence, but your delivery sucks.

In fairness to Carl, he has spent a huge part of his life on the continent and was reasonably passionate pro EU prior to the referendum even being dreamed up. I’ve had plenty of debates with him and he is pretty fair ordinarily but just like us leavers can sometimes let it boil over. I doubt he intended to come across a superior, in fact I’m not sure he even did. Although I think his argument here is weaker than ones he normally puts up. 

Lets not get personal and drag the thread into mud, let @peach0000 well made point sit there and be debated properly like it deserves.

[Carl the Llama]

6 minutes ago, gw_leics772 said:

Im with @peach0000, the more you post, the more your superiority complex comes to the fore.

 

I admire your confidence, but your delivery sucks.

Honestly you'd have to know me personally to truly appreciate how absurd that accusation is.  

 

It goes a bit more like this:

 

 

[gw_leics772]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

Honestly you'd have to know me personally to truly appreciate how absurd that accusation is.  

 

It goes a bit more like this:

 

 

Sorry, i forget that others suffer in silence too.

 

I will always be here for you in your moments of low narcissism ??

[The Fox Covert]

I have only looked at this page, and this thread has become as intense a slanging match as the Commons where the MPs are still unable to agree on anything. No, sorry, they did on Wednesday, by one vote. And May finally decided to talk to Corbyn, but they did not actually agree to agree on anything and it looks as though like everything else so far this has come to nothing, with no agreement or further talks planned over the weekend.

I haven't changed my mind either. I voted Remain, however I dislike the immense power, remoteness and lack of democracy and accountability of the EU Commission.

If the EU could be rolled back to Common Market 1985, but with the 27 members it has now has, that would be fine. I think this country, or the people who live and work in it, need the customs union, free movement of labour and workers rights. We also need the level playing field that the EU normalisation standards provide. On some of the engineering products I work on daily I can just imagine the design nightmare of having to evaluate components from different countries, all with their own domestic standards. After Brexit, this government will have to face ramping up the old BS standards, which of course will need recruiting thousands more civil servants and people with an engineering background, or accept that EU norms rule for the vast majority of the manufactured goods we buy.  

I don't think I have worked anywhere in the last 30 years which manufactured a purely domestic product. In fact I know I haven't, the last time I worked somewhere which manufactured a purely domestic product was in 1979. In Parker Drive, Leicester. We live in a global market place and a major part of the political problem we have is that only a minority of our politicians have ever done a real job.  For most of them it is a familiar path of public school, Oxford and politics and philosophy, work for an MP or a political pressure group, become an MP yourself. I have always thought that Theresa May was a compromise leader because nobody else wanted the job following the vote in the Referendum to leave. A lot of the Tories seem to look down on her. After all, although she did go to Oxford, her school education was largely by the State and her degree was only geography.

[jamfox]

Voted remain, but I would have taken the deal as I won’t some democratic respect for the vote, I don’t think it’s as bad a deal as people say its not even the deal to fair, just a gate way to go through to start negotiating the final deal.
In terms of no deal, well no one voted for that and “it’s the default position” does not cut it for me because that’s not what was sold at all, and when people who want no deal say, “it won’t be that bad” and its “not the end of the world” well...  sorry but I what something that’s going to be a positive for my kid’s future so if you’re not even that up beat then you can shove that idea!  To much miss information and to close a vote to invoke the nuclear option that will cut our economic growth, It’s not even a thing it’s just a failure to get something that will make us the laughing stock of the world, we will for ever be known as the turkeys who voted for Xmas. It really winds me up that Jacob Rees Mugg is deceiving people that no deal it’s the UK’s favourite option,  That’s just a fcuking lie, and if it had been on the ticket it would off never got the win in the first place.
So, deal for me, no deal will make us the Millwall off the wold, relegated to the low league “no one likes us, and we don’t care” ill hang my head in utter shame 
 

[BlueSi13]

18 hours ago, jamfox said:

Voted remain, but I would have taken the deal as I won’t some democratic respect for the vote, I don’t think it’s as bad a deal as people say its not even the deal to fair, just a gate way to go through to start negotiating the final deal.
In terms of no deal, well no one voted for that and “it’s the default position” does not cut it for me because that’s not what was sold at all, and when people who want no deal say, “it won’t be that bad” and its “not the end of the world” well...  sorry but I what something that’s going to be a positive for my kid’s future so if you’re not even that up beat then you can shove that idea!  To much miss information and to close a vote to invoke the nuclear option that will cut our economic growth, It’s not even a thing it’s just a failure to get something that will make us the laughing stock of the world, we will for ever be known as the turkeys who voted for Xmas. It really winds me up that Jacob Rees Mugg is deceiving people that no deal it’s the UK’s favourite option,  That’s just a fcuking lie, and if it had been on the ticket it would off never got the win in the first place.
So, deal for me, no deal will make us the Millwall off the wold, relegated to the low league “no one likes us, and we don’t care” ill hang my head in utter shame 
 

By no deal you referring to what is also known as Hard Brexit, Clean Brexit or WTO Brexit?  As in leaving the Single Market, leaving the Customs Union and ending Freedom of Movement?  You think no leave voter voted for that?  Doesn't quite marry up to my own experience personally to say the least.  

 

May I ask what did we all vote for then?

[STEVIE B]

I was a remainer, purely due to the lack of information and going into the unknown. I honestly couldn’t care less now. I was never hugely into politics and will take even less interest from now on. They all seem to be in it for themselves, are as bad as each other and no single party stands out anymore, in my mind at least. 

[Claridge]

Changed my mind on the day and voted leave and still would. Fed up with it though and would back a game of rock,paper scissors to decide

[ousefox]

3 hours ago, BlueSi13 said:

By no deal you referring to what is also known as Hard Brexit, Clean Brexit or WTO Brexit?  As in leaving the Single Market, leaving the Customs Union and ending Freedom of Movement?  You think no leave voter voted for that?  Doesn't quite marry up to my own experience personally to say the least.  

 

May I ask what did we all vote for then?

How on earth is he meant to know that? Go and have a look at the official leave leaflet and see how different it is to leaving without a deal. The reason we are in such a mess is because nobody knew exactly what leave means; this is why I really struggle to understand why any rational and objective person would be against a confirmatory referendum on a particular Brexit route.

[BlueSi13]

10 minutes ago, ousefox said:

How on earth is he meant to know that? Go and have a look at the official leave leaflet and see how different it is to leaving without a deal. The reason we are in such a mess is because nobody knew exactly what leave means; this is why I really struggle to understand why any rational and objective person would be against a confirmatory referendum on a particular Brexit route.

He said what we didn't vote for, so I was simply asking if he knew what we DID vote for.

 

Perfectly happy for another referendum, Government's deal Vs WTO is a perfectly legitimate question to put back to the people IMO.

[Kopfkino]

12 minutes ago, ousefox said:

How on earth is he meant to know that? Go and have a look at the official leave leaflet and see how different it is to leaving without a deal. The reason we are in such a mess is because nobody knew exactly what leave means; this is why I really struggle to understand why any rational and objective person would be against a confirmatory referendum on a particular Brexit route.

 

How can you confirm something that can't be confirmed until after we've left? 

[ousefox]

1 hour ago, Kopfkino said:

 

How can you confirm something that can't be confirmed until after we've left? 

Call it whatever you want. Labour have decided to call it that. The public can have a vote on a route we choose to pursue.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

If there is a 2nd referendum (which I doubt there will be), the choices should truly represent the nations views which I think should be:-

 

1 - May’s deal

2 - No deal

3 - Revoke A50 and remain

4 - Revoke A50 on condition of a cross party brexit cabinet forming to actually plan something genuinely workable.

 

Despite me being absolutely anti-brexit now, i’d vote for option 4.

 

There should be chapter and verse information made available to the public on all 4 and absolutely NO ****ING CAMPAIGNING ALLOWED!!

 

 

[fuchsntf]

I am still amazed you lot back home,still trust the Morons at Westminister,to take you into any future....

I am seriously starting to question the mental health of all the people running around in my old homeland....

 

You also all need to go to specsavers,because you don't know if the "I" s to right or if the "nos"to the left, will able you to face the future..