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Premier League Thread 2019/20

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42 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Man Utd are currently 80/1 to go down on Bet365 if anyone fancies it.

Yeah, by all means put your money where your mouth is.  Stick a tenner on Spurs and Chelsea to join them, make it a trifecta.

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1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

Again, I stated my personal belief that I don't think they will go down and tbh I don't want them to, the league would be weaker for it as much as I hate that sentiment. 

 

I'm just telling you it isn't ridiculous to imagine they could, especially if they kept Ole all year (they wouldn't and won't.) Whilst I don't normally subscribe to pointless "what if" hypothetical situations, if you take away what's basically a freak result on that opening day they'd be 18th, only ahead of Norwich by virtue of a - 3 GD. 

 

Six of that team vs Chelsea (which is proooooobably "too good to go down" tbf) have been missing through lack of fitness and form now and their ability to replace them is Football League worthy. 

 

Aston Villa have more quality of depth in their squad and nobody would be shocked if they go down. 

 

It's unthinkable that United go down (and again, I don't think they will) but its also not "silly" to say. 

 

Conversely to your suggestion that people are only saying they might because it's United, I'd say you're only dismissing the idea because it's United. 

 

If Watford had that squad (and let's be honest, Pogba is the only player they've got that's that beyond Watford's level even on paper) we'd all be saying they could go. 

 

Sunderland had a team of similar quality and fell through two divisions. 

 

It must be an international break and the silly season for posting.

 

Manchester United will not go down. There are at least 6 teams worse than them including Villa.

 

I can't believe anyone can say with a serious face that Villa had a stronger squad than Manure and the assertion that Pogba is the only better player than Watford have "on paper" is ludicrous

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1 minute ago, FIF said:

So in fact you intervened into a discussion, which you have every right to do, where I was querying the fact that the fee was less than £80m and a large part of it was add-ons which I believed not to be the truth. To tell me that the article (which I read) said the fee was more than £85m with add ons above this figure. Which is why I asked you if you see what I mean. Clearly you didn't but you thought you did as you then go onto proving me right again before resorting to some personal insults which are acceptable from some posters on here and not from others - and before you say anything else, I realise you were just replying and no real insult was meant nor taken as I enjoy reading your posts/thoughts. My retaliation about your towing the times line was tongue in cheek, which maybe you missed and I apologise for making it. I know that you, unlike some, don't take everything you read for gospel, which is why I felt I could say it without being misunderstood.

 

In fact the whole point of my initial post was to point out papers don't have a clue about the details and that the claims in the article were total BS.

 

I'll leave it there and move on.

 

You took my 'I'm the only one who can understand it' comment as a 'personal' insult when it was a reply to another poster somehow misquoting the figures I'd pulled from the Times article 5 minutes earlier. Yes, I was including you in it 'in the round', but there were two other posters who also seemed unable to find/parse the Maguire reference. So it wasn't personal. Indeed, it was tongue in cheek, a fact I thought was made clear by my use of a little ninja chap.

 

Whereas your 'tongue in cheek' reply... Well, it wasn't, was it? I mean clearly it wasn't - you just got narked. Even if it had been, it makes literally no sense based on my repeated exhortations that I was simply repeating the numbers, not believing them. To put it bluntly, it was a shit post.

 

I'll leave it there and remember this forever.
 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

Manchester United won't go down. Premier League wouldn't allow it. They would be corruptly kept up.

I don't think they will either but only because their board will pull the plug at some point. Here's his record since he was permanently appointed:

 

Games: 17

W: 5

D: 4

L: 8

GF: 16

GA: 24

 

That's relegation form. 21.7% win since March and an overall win ratio worse than Moyes (47%) and the second worst since Dave Sexton (77-81). It's only mitigated by his new manager bounce after Mourinho where the players went on the pitch to prove that the latter was a cnut. In any other PL club he'd have been already sacked, let alone Manchester United.

 

His squad is disjointed, he has no system, no playing style, his in-game management is awful, he didn't improve a single player, they're rather going backwards. His players are dropping like flies because of muscle injuries. Outwitted by Steve Bruce. It's utter madness that they gave him the full job and they're now paying the price. If he played Chelsea now that they're beginning to click, there's just no way he'd have won 4-0. Or won at all. And we gifted them their 2nd and last win this season.

 

Ole's at the wheel. Just lol.

 

Edited by That_Dude
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20 minutes ago, That_Dude said:

I don't think they will either but only because their board will pull the plug at some point. Here's his record since he was permanently appointed:

 

Games: 17

W: 5

D: 4

L: 8

GF: 16

GA: 24

 

That's relegation form. 21.7% win since March and an overall win ratio worse than Moyes (47%) and the second worst since Dave Sexton (77-81). It's only mitigated by his new manager bounce after Mourinho where the players went on the pitch to prove that the latter was a cnut. In any other PL club he'd have been already sacked, let alone Manchester United.

 

His squad is disjointed, he has no system, no playing style, his in-game management is awful, he didn't improve a single player, they're rather going backwards. His players are dropping like flies because of muscle injuries. Outwitted by Steve Bruce. It's utter madness that they gave him the full job and they're now paying the price. If he played Chelsea now that they're beginning to click, there's just no way he'd have won 4-0. Or won at all. And we gifted them their 2nd and last win this season.

 

Ole's at the wheel. Just lol.

 

I'm not entirely convinced a change of manager will be enough to save them. Their problems run a lot deeper than just the manager and coaching staff.

 

The squad is a long way short of what's required to compete at the top, and I seriously doubt they have the character required for a scrap at the wrong end of the table. It's a whole new challenge for them, and not the sort I think they'd handle well. Pogba, for example, is only arsed when it suits him. He's the last player I'd want to rely on in a relegation 6 pointer. They'll have to hope it doesn't come to that.

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Everybody blames the Glazers at Man Utd and they give almost unlimited funds to be spent.

 

Then everyone blames Ed Woodward yet he brought in the managers at the time everyone wanted like Van Gaal and Mourinho. Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho all had proven records too.

 

Then people blame the managers themselves like Van Gaal for a slow ponderous buildup game, Mourinho for being overly negative, and Solskjaer for having no plan. Yet when theyre gone they either dont improve or get even worse.

 

I just dont know where you put the blame. I dont think any of their "scapegoats" are the real issues.... its just a bunch of players who should clearly be better than they are underperforming and i think hiding behind all the scapegoats as an excuse why they cant be bothered.

 

Pogba, Matic, Mata, Maguire, Lindelof, wan bissaka, De Gea, Fred, Rashford..... theyve all got bags of experience at the top levels of european football and are all good players.

 

Even Fred is a more than adequate player. Hes not paul scholes or roy keane but hes been absolutely destroyed by man utd just the same way sanchez was, shaw was (injury admittedly too).

 

So i have no idea how you diagnose their issues at all.

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19 minutes ago, Donk said:

Everybody blames the Glazers at Man Utd and they give almost unlimited funds to be spent.

 

Then everyone blames Ed Woodward yet he brought in the managers at the time everyone wanted like Van Gaal and Mourinho. Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho all had proven records too.

 

Then people blame the managers themselves like Van Gaal for a slow ponderous buildup game, Mourinho for being overly negative, and Solskjaer for having no plan. Yet when theyre gone they either dont improve or get even worse.

 

I just dont know where you put the blame. I dont think any of their "scapegoats" are the real issues.... its just a bunch of players who should clearly be better than they are underperforming and i think hiding behind all the scapegoats as an excuse why they cant be bothered.

 

Pogba, Matic, Mata, Maguire, Lindelof, wan bissaka, De Gea, Fred, Rashford..... theyve all got bags of experience at the top levels of european football and are all good players.

 

Even Fred is a more than adequate player. Hes not paul scholes or roy keane but hes been absolutely destroyed by man utd just the same way sanchez was, shaw was (injury admittedly too).

 

So i have no idea how you diagnose their issues at all.

The Glazers are the disease.  Everything else is just symptoms. 

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2 minutes ago, Nicolo Barella said:

The Glazers are the disease.  Everything else is just symptoms. 

So what have the Glazers done that has created a "disease" in your opinion?

 

Its easy to throw such comments around but examples?

Edited by Donk
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If Man Utd appoint a manager just as bad as Ole once they sack him (big if) I genuinely believe that there's a chance they could get relegated. If everything goes perfectly, it could happen. The only team I see as nailed on to get relegated is Newcastle, everyone else down there has a fighting chance.

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Just now, Donk said:

So what have the Glazers done that has created a "disease" in your opinion?

For starters, using Man Utd's immense revenue to pay the interest on the loans they took out to buy the club, and then lining their pockets with much of the rest. Then, appointing Ed Woodward as their "Director of Football", who makes them a lot of money but is clueless on the footballing side of things. Woodward has ended up killing the club's stability in the table by letting things get out of hand and displaying immense ineptitude in how he deals with managers and transfers, which is what has led to this situation they're now in. 

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Just now, Nicolo Barella said:

For starters, using Man Utd's immense revenue to pay the interest on the loans they took out to buy the club, and then lining their pockets with much of the rest. Then, appointing Ed Woodward as their "Director of Football", who makes them a lot of money but is clueless on the footballing side of things. Woodward has ended up killing the club's stability in the table by letting things get out of hand and displaying immense ineptitude in how he deals with managers and transfers, which is what has led to this situation they're now in. 

The "immense revenue" they are using to pay loans hasnt stopped them backing all their managers with huge funds.

 

The "clueless" ed woodward appointed the managers the majority of people and fans wanted at those times.

 

I can point to decisions like giving mourinho a big contract then sacking him as silly in hindsight but most people wanted mourinho out anyway the situation was too far gone, no?

 

Its easy to scapegoat easy targets but im not sure theyre as big an issue as youre making out personally

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2 hours ago, Finnegan said:

Again, I stated my personal belief that I don't think they will go down and tbh I don't want them to, the league would be weaker for it as much as I hate that sentiment. 

Do you genuinely not want them relegated? That would mean practically guaranteed European football next year and the year after for us if Rodgers stayed. It would also mean we could have the amusement of not only Man Utd getting relegated, but Man Utd in the Championship! Man Utd getting fleeced by Reading 1-0 on 95% possession, can you see it! Then the year after, they'd probably still be quite shit. If they even got promoted, which isn't necessarily a given without a good manager. We're looking at consolidation for our own club, and plausible entertainment from Man Utd from now until sometime in 2021, at the very least, if Man Utd get relegated. 

 

And you'd give all that away for some fluffy notion of the PL being weaker? Surely if Man Utd manage to get relegated, that's a sign that the league as a whole has grown incredibly strong, anyway. 

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2 hours ago, ThaiFox said:

All this talk about Man Utd going down...........

 

How about the mighty Spuds joining them? Poch has now been given a vote of confidence by 'shrewd businessman' Levy so he'll be out soon!

 

Mind you, with Levy having to pay Poch 35 million to get rid, he may hang around until OGS gets the boot from Man Utd, then Levy can come up with another of his utterly crazy transfer fees (60 million last time I read) for Man Utd to get him.

 

And Man Utd are stupid enough to pay it too.

The chances of Spurs getting relegated are so low, I will get naked, run through several streets naked with my undies on my head, and post the film onto this site if they get relegated. And you can save this post

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1 hour ago, Raw Dykes said:

I'm not entirely convinced a change of manager will be enough to save them. Their problems run a lot deeper than just the manager and coaching staff.

 

The squad is a long way short of what's required to compete at the top, and I seriously doubt they have the character required for a scrap at the wrong end of the table. It's a whole new challenge for them, and not the sort I think they'd handle well. Pogba, for example, is only arsed when it suits him. He's the last player I'd want to rely on in a relegation 6 pointer. They'll have to hope it doesn't come to that.

Yes, you're absolutely right.

 

The Glazers aren't interested in football, only see the club from a financial perspective and in this case Woodward is still delivering. Ferguson was already laying paper over the cracks in his last years but also left them with an ageing team and he was the one who recommended Moyes. Their footballing structure is a mess, they have no DoF, Woodward and Judge are doing a terrible job when it comes to signing managers and players. They have no long-term vision, their scouting network is crap and they just sign the flavour of the month. In the last case Ole, a club legend but also a nothing manager with no pedigree, banging the Great SAF Era drum. 

 

The current squad is the result of this amateurish policy but was sanctioned by the actual manager this summer one way or another. If Ole thought it was too thin to expect decent results and it indeed was, then he should've walked. If he thought it was enough and his youngsters would step-up, then he's an idiot. He stayed and is as much responsible as the board for the mess this season. Pogba is gone, be it in January or next summer and no good player would want to set a foot in there with Ole at the helm. Their young players are thrown in the lion's den and put under a pressure they're not prepared for.


Even then, I think that they should able to do better than a scrappy win against Rochdale or a loss against a relegation candidate led by Steve Bruce. As I said the board is going to pull the trigger before they really find themselves in an ugly dogfight for which they're indeed not prepared. My guess is that they're waiting for the Liverpool game to fire him without looking too bad. There is already "leaked rumors" in the papers from both sides, each trying to come clean, talks about Allegri or Pochettino, sign that shit is already hitting the fan behind the doors. 

Edited by That_Dude
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12 minutes ago, Donk said:

The "immense revenue" they are using to pay loans hasnt stopped them backing all their managers with huge funds.

 

The "clueless" ed woodward appointed the managers the majority of people and fans wanted at those times.

 

I can point to decisions like giving mourinho a big contract then sacking him as silly in hindsight but most people wanted mourinho out anyway the situation was too far gone, no?

 

Its easy to scapegoat easy targets but im not sure theyre as big an issue as youre making out personally

I'll address each point in turn. 

 

Firstly, Man Utd could conceivably be backing their managers with a lot more funds (their yearly revenue is positively gargantuan), so their reticence to, for example, buy Alderweireld for Mourinho 2 summers ago, is actually a sign of them not backing their managers fully despite absolutely having the capacity to do so. 

 

Ed Woodward doing what the fans "want" is the problem, how good is the average fan at running a football club? If you put me in charge of Leicester I'd probably screw up. A lot of those transfers that have been supported strongly by fans (e.g. gazumping Man City for Sanchez and Fred, and overpaying for both) were flawed to begin with. 

 

And Mourinho had to be sacked, yes, but only because of a situation the board created.  They knew what they were getting with Mourinho - a manager who got results, if you bought him the players he wanted. And it worked out for the first two seasons, but then they idiotically cut his funding because they wanted to keep even more money for themselves. He threw a tantrum and got the hell out of dodge, collecting his nice severance pay.

 

If you're going to appoint a manager like Mourinho, you have to be prepared to follow through with him.  And following through has been Woodwards problem this whole time. Sell your main goalscorer? Don't follow through with it. Keep Pogba to build a team around him? Don't follow-up on it. Etc etc.

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10 minutes ago, Nicolo Barella said:

Do you genuinely not want them relegated? That would mean practically guaranteed European football next year and the year after for us if Rodgers stayed. It would also mean we could have the amusement of not only Man Utd getting relegated, but Man Utd in the Championship! Man Utd getting fleeced by Reading 1-0 on 95% possession, can you see it! Then the year after, they'd probably still be quite shit. If they even got promoted, which isn't necessarily a given without a good manager. We're looking at consolidation for our own club, and plausible entertainment from Man Utd from now until sometime in 2021, at the very least, if Man Utd get relegated. 

 

And you'd give all that away for some fluffy notion of the PL being weaker? Surely if Man Utd manage to get relegated, that's a sign that the league as a whole has grown incredibly strong, anyway. 

 

I would straight up laugh myself silly if they went down and would revel in their downfall yeah totally. 

 

Otherwise? Eh, a league without them in it would be less appealing. 

 

I don't want Leicester to qualify by default, I want Leicester to qualify because we've beaten the biggest clubs at their best and really earned their place. 

 

I also don't think it reflects on the league being super strong so much as just reflects very badly on the sport as a wider whole that we're so vulnerable to having sporting institutions utterly destroyed by greedy, incompetent billionaires buying clubs as a vanity project. 

 

Really, we shouldn't be any happier to see United struggle with bad ownership than we are Newcastle or Blackpool or Darlington or Oadby. 

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10 minutes ago, Footballwipe said:

Man Utd to go down is up there with the worst takes, akin to people who were spaffing their jelly when Burnley hit fourth place for 24 hours a couple of seasons ago, or anytime Bournemouth get within a breath of the top four.

 

We're eight games into the season.

Yeah, I'd say the current odds on it happening (40/1) are pretty fair. Can you imagine, though?

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1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

 

I would straight up laugh myself silly if they went down and would revel in their downfall yeah totally. 

 

Otherwise? Eh, a league without them in it would be less appealing. 

 

I don't want Leicester to qualify by default, I want Leicester to qualify because we've beaten the biggest clubs at their best and really earned their place. 

 

I also don't think it reflects on the league being super strong so much as just reflects very badly on the sport as a wider whole that we're so vulnerable to having sporting institutions utterly destroyed by greedy, incompetent billionaires buying clubs as a vanity project. 

 

Really, we shouldn't be any happier to see United struggle with bad ownership than we are Newcastle or Blackpool or Darlington or Oadby. 

To be honest Man Utd getting relegated would long term be better for them than the alternative, because the Glazers would surely immediately pull the finger out, appoint a real DOF, raze the whole command structure to the ground and appoint competent people or they'd absolutely f*** themselves over which they don't want because Man Utd is their cash cow.

 

Other Championship teams would surely benefit as well, it would potentially bring in huge TV money which would obviously mostly disappear with Man United once they got promoted but could potentially improve Sky's TV deal with them longterm. 

 

I can respect wanting to beat the best to be the best, but for me personally, Man U getting relegated could give us the leg up we'd need to start consistently competing with the big fish of this league, and I would happily take that boost.

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I am not sure how much of it can be laid at the Glazers door. Yes the amount of money to service the debt is huge but they have increased the revenue coming into the club in that time enormously too. Some Utd supporters go on as if Mike Ashley is in charge but they have spent an enormous amount. The problem is the amount that they have wasted and the lack of infrastructure they have put in place to avoid to ensure recruitment is where it should be.

 

Yes, Utd should be able to go out and buy players like Neymar and M'Bappe with the revenues they generate and they can't because of the debt, but at this point it would be like putting expensive wheels on a car with no engine. You could well argue that Pogba was in that bracket at Juve and bringing him in to a poor squad just made things even worse. I think ousting Woodward would be a good start but they need a proper look at having a coherant recruitment strategy beyond chucking money away on 'names'. Now more than ever they are really suffering from nearly all of their senior transfers over a period of about 7 or 8 years having not worked out. Their transfer spending must be at least at half a billion in that time (probably more) and I haven't seen evidence they would have spent another half a billion on top that anymore wisely.

Edited by mancunianfox
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