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[Toddybad]

7 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

It's an extremely difficult situation. The most important thing is that people get the right care and support for them to live their lives, 100%. 

 

One of my oldest mates is married to a trans man from the States - he got the right support and help at quite a young age and is 'living his best life' as they say, both very happily married and a wonderful couple.

 

On the other hand, I was a DofE leader at a school for about 15 years. I dealt with hundreds (maybe thousands) of kids in that time, getting on very well with most of them. We had some kids that were openly gay, some who told us leaders privately, and some who probably didn't know themselves yet.

 

But in the final two years we had two kids come out as trans. Never any before that. Both female to male, both different age groups so didn't know each other. They each changed their name to something outlandish (one inspired by the name of an obscure demon) and asked we used their correct pronouns and chosen names etc, which we were happy to do. Neither have been through medication or surgery yet, and they're still quite young. It seemed quite out of the blue with one of them at least. And I don't want this to come across the wrong way but to me, it just felt quite... flippant.

 

It feels like something very strange has happened recently within youth culture, which can possibly be put down to social media. Information and ideas has never been easier to share and communities grow stronger and easier to join. 

 

I worry that some young people are being encouraged to make huge decisions that they may not be capable of fully understanding yet. A lot of trans people, like my mates husband, know very early on and for him it was absolutely right. But for others it might not be right, there may be other issues that need dealing with and transitioning might not be appropriate. Of course by saying any of this you fall into the trap of my parents generation and older by suggesting it's just a phase.

 

But it's an extremely complex and nuanced thing that, IMO, social media divides people and can make much worse. There's real people's lives at stake here, that's the most important thing.

No so much about trans specifically, more in response to the middle bit about youth culture...

 

I read an interesting piece a couple of years ago talking about why there is so much militant 'wokism' amongst the young.

 

(What the piece didn't cover which I'll add is that it's still a minority, just a load one. Usually the three top members of a uni LBGT group attempting to shut down debate which the Daily Mail uses as an excuse to generalise about all young people.)

 

It suggested that in the past the young turned to music (rock and roll), then drugs in the 70s, then different drugs in the 80s, then ladism and alcohol and different drugs in the 90s to rebel against the older order.... Basically the older generations have done all that stuff so being woke is now what the next generation have left to rebel against former generations that did more drugs, drank more and liberalised sex in mainstream culture.

 

Interesting theory.

 

I still find it annoying. But then I guess that's the point if the article is right.

Edited 1 March 2020 by Toddybad

[Lionator]

13 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I know this is likely going to fall on deaf ears...but for a great deal of people being trans isn't a twisted piece of performance art.

I don't get why people care. If somebody feels that they're trans then let them be, they're not harming anyone. 

[MC Prussian]

39 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I know this is likely going to fall on deaf ears...but for a great deal of people being trans isn't a twisted piece of performance art.

You're right, for some people it's merely politics. Or activism. Or both.

 

Let the community speak for itself, rather than having others speaking for them.

[leicsmac]

21 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

You're right, for some people it's merely politics. Or activism. Or both.

 

Let the community speak for itself, rather than having others speaking for them.

....and for some it's a matter of survival.

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/trans-women-color-facing-epidemic-violence-day-fight/story?id=66015811

 

https://www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/transgender-people-suicide/

 

"A survey of trans people in the UK found that a completed medical transition was shown to greatly reduce rates of suicidal ideation and attempts, in contrast to those at other stages of transition (imminently transitioning or beginning transition). 67% of transitioning people thought more about suicide before transitioning whereas only 3% thought about suicide more after their transition (Bailey et al., 2014)."

 

They do speak for themselves, every day.

[MC Prussian]

17 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

....and for some it's a matter of survival.

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/trans-women-color-facing-epidemic-violence-day-fight/story?id=66015811

 

https://www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/transgender-people-suicide/

 

"A survey of trans people in the UK found that a completed medical transition was shown to greatly reduce rates of suicidal ideation and attempts, in contrast to those at other stages of transition (imminently transitioning or beginning transition). 67% of transitioning people thought more about suicide before transitioning whereas only 3% thought about suicide more after their transition (Bailey et al., 2014)."

 

They do speak for themselves, every day.

What you're highlighting here in the first link is a minority issue even further watered down due to the even lower percentage of black people transitioning.

As for transgender in the USA, the Williams Institute got to less than 1%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States

The average in most states is somewhere around the 0,5% mark, so that's 1 in 200. Now for the black transgender community, you're probably looking at 0,1%, or less. One in a thousand! So, how many of those are truly in danger? The number shrinks even more...

 

I think we should show compassion to people trying to transition, but equally not blow it out of proportion and make it bigger an issue than it really is.

One can assume people willing to undergo the costly procedure are well-aware of the side effects the drugs and the operation have on ones body.

It's not as if they're completely taken aback because the suicide attempt rates come as one big surprise.

In most cases, it's fair to say these people already have (some) mental issues long before undergoing the transition. Once you're done on the OP table, you're done. It's near-impossible to revert back to your old "self" after that.

 

And just because "suicidal thoughts" go down, doesn't mean the issues of suicide or suicide attempts go away completely!

 

Polls are also highly unreliable, because they only represent a certain percentage at a particular point in time - and we don't know how honest the answers really were.

Ask yourself: How many transgender truly feel fine after the process, and how many simply pretend to be fine? Do you think it's any different to *regular" people, who usually have shitty days and pretend to be fine?

Edited 1 March 2020 by MC Prussian

[ajthefox]

38 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

You're right, for some people it's merely politics. Or activism. Or both.

 

Let the community speak for itself, rather than having others speaking for them.

Who are these people that have openly said in the press or told you personally that they're doing it for political reasons or activism then? 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

What you're highlighting here in the first link is a minority issue even further watered down due to the even lower percentage of black people transitioning.

As for the USA, the Williams Institute got to less than 1%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States

The average in most states is somewhere around the 0,5% mark, so that's 1 in 200. Now for the black transgender community, you're probably looking at 0,1%, or less. One in a thousand!

 

I think we should show compassion to people trying to transition, but equally not blow it out of proportion and make it bigger an issue than it really is.

One can assume people willing to undergo the costly procedure are well-aware of the side effects the drugs and the operation have on ones body.

It's not as if they're completely taken aback because the suicide attempt rates come as one big surprise.

In most cases, it's fair to say these people already have (some) mental issues long before undergoing the transition. And just because "suicidal thoughts" go down, doesn't mean the issue of suicide goes away completely!

Polls are also highly unreliable, because they only represent a certain percentage at a particular point in time - and we don't know how honest the answers really were.

 

Once you're done on the OP table, you're done. It's near-impossible to revert back to your old "self" after that.

1 in 1000 is still roughly 300,000 people in the US alone.

 

Wasn't aware that "letting the community speak for itself" and then dismissing what they have to say out of hand because "we don't how honest the answers really are" is in any way consistent, but hey. But it's always inconvenient when a group that one pretends to care for for the sake of appearances says things that do not fit with one's worldview about them, isn't it? Personally, I'd much rather believe them when they tell of the marginalisation and the struggles they have and not dismiss it as disbelieving or a purely "minority" issue, but again, that is of course your prerogative.

[MC Prussian]

33 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

1 in 1000 is still roughly 300,000 people in the US alone.

 

Wasn't aware that "letting the community speak for itself" and then dismissing what they have to say out of hand because "we don't how honest the answers really are" is in any way consistent, but hey. But it's always inconvenient when a group that one pretends to care for for the sake of appearances says things that do not fit with one's worldview about them, isn't it? Personally, I'd much rather believe them when they tell of the marginalisation and the struggles they have and not dismiss it as disbelieving or a purely "minority" issue, but again, that is of course your prerogative.

1 in 1000 for black transgender in the US is an estimate, my guess is White Americans, Hispanics and Asian-Americans are more often transitioning still.

Out of the maybe 150'000 to 300'000 black transgender US Americans, how many experience violence on a regular basis exactly? Like I said, the number shrinks considerably.

 

How is one case of violence out of thousands of people leading a (relatively) normal life representative of the community on the whole?

If the issue were clearly widespread, then I'd take it much more serious.

 

It's not "inconvenient" to dismiss the low amount of cases, it's looking at the vast majority of transgender people who don't experience violence at all and call that "progress".

It's also not far-fetched to guess that the perpetrators of these awful killings are to be found within the same racial community... Which begs the question: Do we as a society on the whole have an issue, or isn't it more a case of a particular community within said society being less tolerant than others...?

 

 

Edited 1 March 2020 by MC Prussian

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

1 in 1000 for black transgender in the US is an estimate, my guess is White Americans, Hispanics and Asian-Americans are more often transitioning still.

Out of the maybe 150'000 to 300'000 black transgender US Americans, how many experience violence on a regular basis exactly? Like I said, the number shrinks considerably.

 

How is one case of violence out of thousands of people leading a (relatively) normal life representative of the community on the whole?

If the issue were clearly widespread, then I'd take it much more serious.

 

It's not "inconvenient" to dismiss the low amount of cases, it's looking at the majority of transgender people who don't experience violence at all and call that "progress".

It's also not far-fetched to guess that the perpetrators of these awful killings are to be found within the same racial community... Which begs the question: Do we as a society on the whole have an issue, or isn't it more a case of a particular community within said society being less tolerant than others...?

 

 

It is (the community and statistics are saying this both), I don't believe you, it evidently is, I'd enjoy knowing how you know that, and is that a guess or do you have some support for that assertion, in that order.

 

Actually, forget that last part unless it's really pertinent - going round and round on this issue in the same way that has been done on climate change is not really the way I wish to spend my Sunday evening.

 

My original point is that viewing how trans people across their community as a whole decide to live their lives as some kind of joke or activist stunt is erroneous, demeaning and thoughtless in the extreme - no matter how much of a veneer of "compassion" is applied to mask such clear and evident contempt for them. I'll leave it there and let that point stand.

[MC Prussian]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

It is (the community and statistics are saying this both), I don't believe you, it evidently is, I'd enjoy knowing how you know that, and is that a guess or do you have some support for that assertion, in that order.

 

Actually, forget that last part unless it's really pertinent - going round and round on this issue in the same way that has been done on climate change is not really the way I wish to spend my Sunday evening.

 

My original point is that viewing how trans people across their community as a whole decide to live their lives as some kind of joke or activist stunt is erroneous, demeaning and thoughtless in the extreme - no matter how much of a veneer of "compassion" is applied to mask such clear and evident contempt for them. I'll leave it there and let that point stand.

That's your own prerogative, but the stats speak otherwise. You're free to believe whatever you want, has no effect on the facts.

 

And I never said that trans people decide to live their lives as a "joke" or "activist stunt". I personally was referring to people using trans people as some sort of new trend and new victim group, pushing an agenda, often with the help of the media. The "white knights" of people with gender dysphoria, so to speak.

 

If they really want to transition and are able to live a happy life afterwards, fantastic. However, a transition alone doesn't mean you won't be facing issues in life like everybody else. You'll still be judged by your character, your morale and your status. Like we all do.

And knowing that the amount of transgender people with mental problems is rather high (suicide attempt rate), their specific issues won't magically go away, either. 

 

The contempt aimed at transgender people stems from a very low percentage of the population, backwards people, religious fanatics, incels and whatnot. We as a society on the whole are more tolerant than ever, and that with several billion people living on this planet by now.

[brucey]

9 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

But in the final two years we had two kids come out as trans. Never any before that. Both female to male, both different age groups so didn't know each other. They each changed their name to something outlandish (one inspired by the name of an obscure demon) and asked we used their correct pronouns and chosen names etc, which we were happy to do. Neither have been through medication or surgery yet, and they're still quite young. It seemed quite out of the blue with one of them at least. And I don't want this to come across the wrong way but to me, it just felt quite... flippant.

 

It feels like something very strange has happened recently within youth culture, which can possibly be put down to social media. Information and ideas has never been easier to share and communities grow stronger and easier to join. I

This has certainly been noticed in the medical community as well.

Here are some links you might find interesting.

 

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202330
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDV-ZL6-Gu0

 

[Wymsey]

A man has died in a hit-and-run incident on Aylestone Road.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-51696333

[brucey]

For what it’s worth, I don’t agree with children being given puberty blockers. There’s just too much unknown about the long term side effects of these medications. In adults, the same blocker medication (used to treat prostate cancer and endometriosis) is known to cause mental health issues and long term bone density loss.

 

I believe the stats are of those children who get put on blockers, nearly 100% go on to transition. Whereas before blockers came into the picture, 20% went on to transition as an adult, and 80% didn’t (mostly ended up gay). Blockers are incredibly helpful in that 20%, but in that other 80% they are now on life long hormonal therapy which could have been unnecessary. We don’t yet know all the side effects of long term hormonal therapy either.
 

Some people have also queried the reliability of the studies that indicated increased suicidal ideation. Lots of unknowns in such a difficult and emotive subject.

 

Edited 1 March 2020 by brucey

[iniesta]

If adults want to mutilate themselves then that's their private business / fetish.

The second they try to tell me to call them women / men or whatever they think they are, in contradiction to biological fact, they can fvck off.

Trying to indoctrinate confused children into trans ideology is criminal

[leicsmac]

12 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

The contempt aimed at transgender people stems from a very low percentage of the population, backwards people, religious fanatics, incels and whatnot. We as a society on the whole are more tolerant than ever, and that with several billion people living on this planet by now.

 

4 hours ago, iniesta said:

If adults want to mutilate themselves then that's their private business / fetish.

The second they try to tell me to call them women / men or whatever they think they are, in contradiction to biological fact, they can fvck off.

Trying to indoctrinate confused children into trans ideology is criminal

A low percentage well-represented on FT, it would seem.

[Carl the Llama]

5 hours ago, iniesta said:

If adults want to mutilate themselves then that's their private business / fetish.

The second they try to tell me to call them women / men or whatever they think they are, in contradiction to biological fact, they can fvck off.

Trying to indoctrinate confused children into trans ideology is criminal

Have you ever actually been in that position and if so is that really how you handled it?

 

[ozleicester]

Whayt is biological fact... if they have a penis they are male?

 

Therefore, if it (the penis) is removed they are no longer male?

[MC Prussian]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

 

A low percentage well-represented on FT, it would seem.

Yeah, maybe one voice out of a thousand.

 

You're doing here exactly what the media are doing - taking the exception and pushing it to be the rule.

 

How do you measure tolerance, then?

Just because people won't call others by their desired pronouns doesn't automatically make these people intolerant. They can simultaneously still accept the existence of transgender and let them live.

But hey, great work at conflating issues here.

 

And yes, indoctrinating children at such an early age isn't helping them at all - usually, it's the parents trying to project something onto their kids.

Edited 2 March 2020 by MC Prussian

[Ceirboy]

27 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Whayt is biological fact... if they have a penis they are male?

 

Therefore, if it (the penis) is removed they are no longer male?

I think Chromosomes , the 23rd Pair is the biological fact you might be looking for. 

[leicsmac]

35 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Yeah, maybe one voice out of a thousand.

 

You're doing here exactly what the media are doing - taking the exception and pushing it to be the rule.

 

How do you measure tolerance, then?

Just because people won't call others by their desired pronouns doesn't automatically make these people intolerant. They can simultaneously still accept the existence of transgender and let them live.

But hey, great work at conflating issues here.

 

And yes, indoctrinating children at such an early age isn't helping them at all - usually, it's the parents trying to project something onto their kids.

Evidently not, if that last comment was anything to go by. Well, let them live but view them with contempt, which is what I was getting at.

 

21 minutes ago, Ceirboy said:

I think Chromosomes , the 23rd Pair is the biological fact you might be looking for. 

...and this is a method everyone is able to use on sight in order to determine the sex of another human being and thus it is the ultimate arbiter of what sex is and means, overriding every other factor?

 

In any case, open any biology journal beyond, say, GCSE level and it is obvious that chromosomal data is more complex than a simple binary anyway.

 

 

[Ceirboy]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Evidently not, if that last comment was anything to go by. Well, let them live but view them with contempt, which is what I was getting at.

 

...and this is a method everyone is able to use on sight in order to determine the sex of another human being and thus it is the ultimate arbiter of what sex is and means, overriding every other factor?

 

In any case, open any biology journal beyond, say, GCSE level and it is obvious that chromosomal data is more complex than a simple binary anyway.

 

 

Yes but for the non PHD Biologists in here, we’ll use what is deemed the accepted method of determining gender used worldwide for simplicity.

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, Ceirboy said:

Yes but for the non PHD Biologists in here, we’ll use what is deemed the accepted method of determining gender used worldwide for simplicity.

Fair enough...wasn't aware that particular measure was the true arbiter by virtue of being so simple everyone can use it by sight to determine gender and therefore the most critical one that renders all other measures unimportant, but fair enough.

[Ceirboy]

19 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Fair enough...wasn't aware that particular measure was the true arbiter by virtue of being so simple everyone can use it by sight to determine gender and therefore the most critical one that renders all other measures unimportant, but fair enough.

I’ve tried the sight method but as yet, I’m yet to have been convinced or fooled! 

[Guest MattP]

22 hours ago, Lionator said:

I don't get why people care. If somebody feels that they're trans then let them be, they're not harming anyone. 

Because the truth still matters to a lot of people.

 

And many are harming others, just look at the division this is causing amongst women - many who feel they are having their rights and womanhood stolen from them by biological men.

[ozleicester]

1 hour ago, Ceirboy said:

I think Chromosomes , the 23rd Pair is the biological fact you might be looking for. 

Perhaps you can explain how ANYONE can look at a person and define the 23rd pair.

So what will we call a person until we have tested their genes... how about.. whatever THEY ask us to call them?