Brexit!

[z-layrex]

15 minutes ago, Captain... said:

We also need unskilled immigrants for farming. Leaving the EU is not going to stop immigration and not stop people exploiting immigrants. It has been said that leaving the EU will not reduce immigration figures by much. It has been known for years that unskilled immigrants from the EU are being taken advantage of put up in unsuitable housing. Did you report it? Did the police do anything? If so and nothing was done how will that change under leave?

I don't want to stop immigration though. I work in healthcare and we'd be absolutely dead without a global workforce, as would any other sector.  I want the skilled immigration this country needs by offering generous, targeted relocation packages in sectors we need like countries like Australia and Canada do. For unskilled immigration we can have regulated programmes for that too, again in industries where the workforce is needed. In a perfect world this would help reduce the chance for exploitation.

 

I know it's not a popular outlook, but you can still be pro-European and pro-immigration while still being anti-free movement. I want out of the EU because I will never agree with Schengen.

Edited 10 September 2019 by z-layrex

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Wortho said:

Well nobody has replied to my questions either. I am a thoroughly decent chap and I don't really care what people think. I have more important things in my life to worry about. Come on the City!!!

But you never answered Stans question and suddenly brought Corbyn into it for no reason. Why should stan answer your random question that was a huge change of subject, when you never answered his?

[yorkie1999]

20 minutes ago, Captain... said:

We also need unskilled immigrants for farming. Leaving the EU is not going to stop immigration and not stop people exploiting immigrants. It has been said that leaving the EU will not reduce immigration figures by much. It has been known for years that unskilled immigrants from the EU are being taken advantage of put up in unsuitable housing. Did you report it? Did the police do anything? If so and nothing was done how will that change under leave?

No, but it will stop unskilled immigrants claiming tax credits and social benefits  to the value of a nurses wages and then sending the money back home to their families, because of the low social benefit payouts in their own countries.

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, yorkie1999 said:

No, but it will stop unskilled immigrants claiming tax credits and social benefits  to the value of a nurses wages and then sending the money back home to their families, because of the low social benefit payouts in their own countries.

So would the legislation that was going to come in had we voted to remain.

[Carl the Llama]

27 minutes ago, z-layrex said:

I don't want to stop immigration though. I work in healthcare and we'd be absolutely dead without a global workforce, as would any other sector.  I want the skilled immigration this country needs by offering generous, targeted relocation packages in sectors we need like countries like Australia and Canada do. For unskilled immigration we can have regulated programmes for that too, again in industries where the workforce is needed. In a perfect world this would help reduce the chance for exploitation.

 

I know it's not a popular outlook, but you can still be pro-European and pro-immigration while still being anti-free movement. I want out of the EU because I will never agree with Schengen.

Like with many aspects of our EU membership we have special dispensation from being in Schengen.

[yorkie1999]

18 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

So would the legislation that was going to come in had we voted to remain.

Well bugger me, if someone had told me that I’d have made a point of voting remain instead of not bothering to vote at all.

[Carl the Llama]

Saw this on Reddit and clearly it belongs in here:

 

 

 

[WigstonWanderer]

12 hours ago, z-layrex said:

At the time we had 4 Romanian families illegally living in a 2 bed flat next door, making our lives hell. Did this influence my vote? Absolutely it did. But I'll be accused of racism/xenophobia for admitting this is as a personal influence.

 

My fiance is Portuguese FFS.

Don’t care about colour or nationality, but having shit neighbours, feral kids roaming around, etc must be an absolute nightmare.

[pleatout]

1 hour ago, z-layrex said:

I don't want to stop immigration though. I work in healthcare and we'd be absolutely dead without a global workforce, as would any other sector.  I want the skilled immigration this country needs by offering generous, targeted relocation packages in sectors we need like countries like Australia and Canada do. For unskilled immigration we can have regulated programmes for that too, again in industries where the workforce is needed. In a perfect world this would help reduce the chance for exploitation.

 

I know it's not a popular outlook, but you can still be pro-European and pro-immigration while still being anti-free movement. I want out of the EU because I will never agree with Schengen.

So let me get this right, you want out of the EU because you dont want something we havent got. Oh dear.

 

Just for clarity

22 of the 28 EU member states participate in the Schengen Area. Of the six EU members that are not part of the Schengen Area, four—Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, and Romania—are legally obliged to join the area in the future, while the other two—Ireland and the United Kingdom—maintain opt-outs. The four European Free Trade Association (EFTA) member states, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland, are not members of the EU, but have signed agreements in association with the Schengen Agreement. Three European microstates that are not members of the European Union but which are enclaves or semi-enclave within an EU member state—Monaco, San Marino, and Vatican City—are de facto part of the Schengen Area.

[pleatout]

1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

No, but it will stop unskilled immigrants claiming tax credits and social benefits  to the value of a nurses wages and then sending the money back home to their families, because of the low social benefit payouts in their own countries.

Do you have any proof that this happens?

 

However in other news

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration-in-the-uk/

 

I grant you I will be selective but for example...

"In the past few years, the government has started to publish data derived from HMRC and DWP records of amounts actually paid and received by foreign nationals. For example, HMRC data show that in FY2015/16, EEA nationals paid £15.5bn more in income tax and national insurance than they took out in tax credits and child benefit (HMRC, 2018)."

[UpTheLeagueFox]

This thread is just like politicians on all sides.

The same old names saying the same old shite over and over and getting nowhere.

 

Right, I'm going to the bar. Anyone want owt?

[Jattdogg]

41 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

This thread is just like politicians on all sides.

The same old names saying the same old shite over and over and getting nowhere.

 

Right, I'm going to the bar. Anyone want owt?

Welcome over here for some Canadian beers!

[inckley fox]

18 hours ago, simFox said:

Johnson doesn't want no deal, he just needs to wield it as his bargaining chip. The fact is, the moment no deal was going to happen, you would see a great coming together and an 11th hour deal would be struck. This is what every leaver knows. The problem is remainers have no back bone. They also don't want to see it come to happen, because it will show what we all know, that they were wrong all along.

A member of his own cabinet quit the other day saying she'd seen little interest in negotiating a deal.

 

We have to be able to separate what we want to be the truth (because we've signed ourselves up to a cause and committed ourselves to whatever reflects kindly on it) from what the evidence suggests. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Johnson conjured some sort of deal, possibly as a result of those 'devices' Parliament has placed in his path, but there's not much evidence for it in his actions over the past few weeks. Within or outside of the government.

 

And this is the least helpful sort of language you see in the Brexit debate. Remainers dismissing Leavers as a bunch of xenophobic, ill-educated flag-wavers, and Leavers dismissing Remainers as a bunch of spineless, chin-stroking apologists. Churchill wanted a united Europe - did he have no back bone? Did the Tory rebels show no back bone? Bercow? Maybe all this 'do or die' and 'die in a ditch' bluster has fooled a more people than I thought it would. If 'back bone' means reckless, strong-arm politics and contempt for the nation's democratically-elected body, then maybe it was better left in the politics of the 1930s.

 

While one half of the country feels this way about the other, the problem's only going to get worse - whether we leave on the 31st or not. We need to try to see the reason in the opposing arguments, not only in our own. You can't say 'every leaver knows' what's going on while the rest of the country has 'no back bone' and their fears on Brexit aren't based on genuinely held concerns, but on a deranged attachment to the EU and the need to terrify anyone who thinks about opting out. That's almost as silly as the chap from the Inbetweeners saying he wanted out of the EU because he was scared of walls in Greece, or Holloway confusing the EU with IFAB. Or even, on the flip side, the Guardian readers who believe that Leavers are all pipe-smoking grandees with cobwebs in their hair, closet Nazis or semi-literate white supremacists on council estates.

 

Most people have a genuine belief that their standpoint, whatever it is, is the best one for the country. And very few of them, on either side, 'know' that an 11th hour deal is an inevitability. That's the problem. It's because Johnson's motives weren't clear, and a deal wasn't anything like a sure thing, that Parliament intervened. Even though this parliament has thus far been a lousy one when it comes to finding a way forward for Brexit, the Benn bill was simply a democratically-elected body doing its job to make sure that another democratic mandate wasn't implemented in a way which damaged the country. Had Johnson acted with integrity throughout his political career, that might not have happened.

[ozleicester]

Re the IRA references... werent the IRA just doing the same as those who want to "take back their country and protect their borders?"

[inckley fox]

2 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Saw this on Reddit and clearly it belongs in here:

 

 

 

That's a better articulation of the argument for a second referendum than anything the opposition parties have strung together.

 

I tend to listen to whoever the PM is (Labour or Tory) just so I can swear at them, but it's only recently that I made a conscious decision to listen to what Corbyn, Swinson and so on have to say, instead of groaning and leaving the room in order to do literally anything else whenever they open their mouths. I embarked on one of these conscious missions at the start of the month.

 

And Christ. No wonder they don't want a general election. And the sheer number of politicians who'd be massacred if they spent five minutes in a Year 11 classroom is staggering. I thought MPs were meant to be the cream of our statesmen; the definition of oratory flair and ebullience. But the only saving grace, from what I've seen, is the independent who looks like John Sillett might look if he was about to burst. He had me on the edge of my seat, just in case it happened.

[leicsmac]

43 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

A member of his own cabinet quit the other day saying she'd seen little interest in negotiating a deal.

 

We have to be able to separate what we want to be the truth (because we've signed ourselves up to a cause and committed ourselves to whatever reflects kindly on it) from what the evidence suggests. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Johnson conjured some sort of deal, possibly as a result of those 'devices' Parliament has placed in his path, but there's not much evidence for it in his actions over the past few weeks. Within or outside of the government.

 

And this is the least helpful sort of language you see in the Brexit debate. Remainers dismissing Leavers as a bunch of xenophobic, ill-educated flag-wavers, and Leavers dismissing Remainers as a bunch of spineless, chin-stroking apologists. Churchill wanted a united Europe - did he have no back bone? Did the Tory rebels show no back bone? Bercow? Maybe all this 'do or die' and 'die in a ditch' bluster has fooled a more people than I thought it would. If 'back bone' means reckless, strong-arm politics and contempt for the nation's democratically-elected body, then maybe it was better left in the politics of the 1930s.

 

While one half of the country feels this way about the other, the problem's only going to get worse - whether we leave on the 31st or not. We need to try to see the reason in the opposing arguments, not only in our own. You can't say 'every leaver knows' what's going on while the rest of the country has 'no back bone' and their fears on Brexit aren't based on genuinely held concerns, but on a deranged attachment to the EU and the need to terrify anyone who thinks about opting out. That's almost as silly as the chap from the Inbetweeners saying he wanted out of the EU because he was scared of walls in Greece, or Holloway confusing the EU with IFAB. Or even, on the flip side, the Guardian readers who believe that Leavers are all pipe-smoking grandees with cobwebs in their hair, closet Nazis or semi-literate white supremacists on council estates.

 

Most people have a genuine belief that their standpoint, whatever it is, is the best one for the country. And very few of them, on either side, 'know' that an 11th hour deal is an inevitability. That's the problem. It's because Johnson's motives weren't clear, and a deal wasn't anything like a sure thing, that Parliament intervened. Even though this parliament has thus far been a lousy one when it comes to finding a way forward for Brexit, the Benn bill was simply a democratically-elected body doing its job to make sure that another democratic mandate wasn't implemented in a way which damaged the country. Had Johnson acted with integrity throughout his political career, that might not have happened.

A lighthouse of sense in the murk this recent thread has become, along with @Alf Bentley ever-erudite views. Well done.

[Gordon the Great]

15 hours ago, Wortho said:

I have never read so much drivel. 

Me neither.......drivel being the nice way of saying it !!!

[HappyHamza]

Comres

 

 

[Gordon the Great]

8 hours ago, Wortho said:

Well you respond to me about Corbyn and McDonnell and their anti-semetic party and their Hamas/ Hezbollah support. 

Let alone inviting IRA sympathisers to the HOC a few days after the Brighton bomb. Are these the people you want leading this country?

Great reply, there are none so blind........................

[Gordon the Great]

9 hours ago, StanSP said:

Project fear is another Brexit sham phrase from naive and delusional Brexiteers. The consideration for how people's lives will be (negatively) affected is not a 'fear' at all.

 

Majority of politicians have very little consideration for the public though these days. John Major quoted the other day that when he was a mainstream politician, if it was a choice to make that favoured the party of the country, it was the country that should win all the time. Y

 

You make decisions in the best interests for the people of the country. That's what is lost these days as a politician and what has been lost amongst this Brexit bullshit. And that goes for members of most parties, not just the Tories. 

 

I guess it's not as bad as the actual fear that the current government portray, though. Getting absolutely nowhere after nearly 3 and a half years of 'negotiations'. 

 

Remind me again how divisive this country has become since the referendum vote? Remind me again how toxic politics has become since the vote. Remind me please how far

 

 

9 hours ago, StanSP said:

Below is a letter that I sent to the Leicester Mercury. in May 2016, you may think that parts of it are pretty prophetic.

21st May 2016

 

I feel so very strongly about this that at the risk of making a fool of myself I have decided to send it to my friends.If you disagree with it`s content then bin it, unlike the E.U. I respect your right to do that.

       This vote is "For real", it sounds dramatic but the truth is the very existence of this country as a sovereign nation will cease If we vote to "Remain".

If that happens can you imagine the size of the "Naughty step" we will be put on because we had the temerity to want a vote?

We will be punished big time and believe me it will cost us so very dearly.

 

I know that it is not the British thing to write such a political letter to friends but at the risk of embarrassing myself I have decided that it may be worth it.

Please , if you share my fears and my love of this country pass this letter on...Thank you.

 

THE LETTER

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

             I would like the following to be considered for your  "First Person" column or if not, a letter, please.

 

A recent contributor to the "First person" column in the Leicester Mercury encouraged us to vote to stay in the E.U.

 

In that column he he quoted one of the "Founding fathers" of the Union, a Mr Jean Monnet.I would also like to use a Monnet quote in mine.

           He said,and I quote, "Europe's people should be guided towards the superstate without them understanding what is happening.This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually lead to Federation" 

 

  Unless I am missing something the intention of this organization is to remove the independence, Freedom, history security and sovereignty of EVERY member state............ not just our`s. 

 

    Please be of no doubt, should this referendum result be to remain in this undemocratic, deceitful, failing, corrupt monolith you will never have the chance to save your country again.

                            .There will be no waving two fingers at the opposition team bus as it drives away with our sovereignty as it`s trophy,................no hoping to win the replay.There will be no replay it will NOT be allowed to happen.

There will be no second chance..............., unless ,of course we vote to leave.

 

Then the E.U. democratic machine will burst into frenzied activity and, as in Ireland, Denmark and France (Who all voted against the E.U. in free and democratic votes) we will be ordered to vote again & again until it gets the result it wants.........some Democracy this!

 

         We have been bombarded with almost every conceivable "Fright  story"by Mr Cameron and his appeasers.From the prospect of a  "Third world war" to "Total economic meltdown" and believe me more is to come before the 23rd of June. He will say anything including the biblical plague of frogs if he thinks it will do the trick.

 

He failed with the False "renegotiation" that was a complete preplanned charade,  and returned waving a "Peace in our time" equivalent paper claiming some sort of victory...at least Neville Chamberlain (sadly) believed his. 

.

    The great lie that the E.U. has kept Europe safe since the war is farcical, We are safe because of the N.A.T.O. Alliance...no other reason.An alliance that France refused to contribute to for several decades, some thanks for the million allied dead , the price of their liberty(Twice)

 

           Far from being a vehicle of peace & prosperity this organisation has impoverished and endangered the peace throughout southern Europe.The economies and unemployment  of Greece, Spain , Italy, Portugal & Ireland stand as awful testament to that.

 

 Right now the countries of the Balkans & southern Europe are erecting barbed wire fences and the armed forces of Greece & Macedonia are in a "Mexican stand off".

 

 Sadly I believe that at some point soon the situation will ignite and when that happens I will leave the reader to guess which Nations troops will be sent to sort the mess out.

 

         Leaving will not be easy, they will make sure of that,.................but ask yourself which you prefer,.... being a  sector of the promised Superstate or having  the Freedom to make our own laws & trading deals, looking after our own Security and being able to admit people to our country that we CHOOSE to have.

 

             I desperately want my Grandchildren to have access to a decently paid job, the possibility of having their own house and to have local access to a school where the staff do not  have to  speak 27 languages.

 

 Yes we do have a responsibility to look after some of the children who are endangered by war as we did with the "Kinder transport" in 1939 whist other European nations looked on & twiddled their thumbs,....................., but not the 20 year old economic migrants who claim to be 14 and wave the Victory sign at the cameras when getting off the back of a lorry in Dover.

 

 Proud as I most certainly am to be British, now is NOT the time to "play the game" and lose gracefully.

 

 I implore you for the sake of my Grandchildren ,and yours,and the generations to come, to get out & VOTE LEAVE on the 23rd of June, believe you me ,you will never have the chance again.

 

 

 

 

 

[leicsmac]

Seriously...can anyone see a way out of all this without antipathy and enmity that will last a very long time?

 

As said elsewhere, it's frustrating to see humans making up problems of their own when so many others exist (but apparently are not apparent right now).

[The Guvnor]

7 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

This thread is just like politicians on all sides.

The same old names saying the same old shite over and over and getting nowhere.

 

Right, I'm going to the bar. Anyone want owt?

Yes please, 

A pint for me and a plate of sour grapes and bitter lemons for my remainer friends.

 

Oh come on ffs I'm joking.

[Captain...]

10 hours ago, z-layrex said:

I don't want to stop immigration though. I work in healthcare and we'd be absolutely dead without a global workforce, as would any other sector.  I want the skilled immigration this country needs by offering generous, targeted relocation packages in sectors we need like countries like Australia and Canada do. For unskilled immigration we can have regulated programmes for that too, again in industries where the workforce is needed. In a perfect world this would help reduce the chance for exploitation.

 

I know it's not a popular outlook, but you can still be pro-European and pro-immigration while still being anti-free movement. I want out of the EU because I will never agree with Schengen.

Freedom of movement and freedom to work are great in my opinion it has allowed so many people to experience other cultures and countries. I've lived in Spain visited the majority of the countries in the Europe Union and had regular work trips to half of them. 

 

The flip side is that a minority of people will exploit it, but in my opinion it is worth it. 

 

You had a bad experience, but I would blame that on the Government/ police. You didn't say if you reported it, but there should be safeguards in place to protect immigrants and British people. The last few governments have been woefully inadequate in many ways and have blamed the EU.

[Ali Begbie]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Seriously...can anyone see a way out of all this without antipathy and enmity that will last a very long time?

 

As said elsewhere, it's frustrating to see humans making up problems of their own when so many others exist (but apparently are not apparent right now).

I’ve come round to  the idea of No deal.

 

A second referendum is clearly the most sensible option, and has been for the last two years. However, these are not sensible times.  

The daft thing to do would be to le

ave without a Deal. So let's do that. We'll live with the fiasco for a while until the election which puts Corbyn into power. If we muddle through somehow then great. If not, then we’ll get a referendum on whether to rejoin the EU. Remainers will become Rejoiners (“Rejoicers?”) and Leavers will become Remain (outside the EU). They will love that!  

[Jon the Hat]

6 hours ago, inckley fox said:

A member of his own cabinet quit the other day saying she'd seen little interest in negotiating a deal.

I wouldn't listen too much to Amber Rudd.  She presumably thought the headless chicken approach of the May government would work, and is unable to see that the deliberate standoff with the EU is more likely to lead to movement than endless talking.