Will Old Trafford yesterday be our Arsenal September 2015 home defeat moment?

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

The 5 - 2 home defeat when we went into the game confident with 3 wins and 3 draws was the end of Ranieri essentially playing De Laet and Schlupp as wing backs. In came Simpson and Fuchs, the defence tightened and the rest is history. 

 

So will yesterday's reverse persuade Brendan to drop the stupid Maddison wing experiment along with the 2 DMs to get Tielemans going?  And be braver. 

 

If so, we are in a good position to push on and challenge for that top 6 place. 

 

 

Edited 15 September 2019 by Cadno'r Cymoedd

[foxfanazer]

1 minute ago, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

The 5 - 2 home defeat when we went into with 3 wins and 3 draws was the end of Ranieri essentially playing De Laet and Schlupp as wing backs. In came Simpson and Fuchs, the defence tightened and the rest is history. 

 

So will yesterday's reverse persuade Brendan to drop the stupid Maddison wing experiment along with the 2 DMs to get Tielemans going?  And be braver. 

 

If so, we are in a good position to push on and challenge for that top 6 place. 

 

 

I doubt it. Hasn't worked for a number of games but he persists with it still

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

1 minute ago, foxfanazer said:

I doubt it. Hasn't worked for a number of games but he persists with it still

Surely, he's got to see it soon? 

[foxfanazer]

Just now, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

Surely, he's got to see it soon? 

Hope so. It's glaringly obvious to most

[Izzy]

[sdb]

Alexis Sanchez absolutely bossed us (& ngolo) that day. Yesterday we got comfortably beaten by McTominey, Matic, Chong and James. I love the optimism but I fear we didn't lose yesterday because the opposition were outstanding. 

Edited 15 September 2019 by sdb

[egg_fried_rice]

We showed our swashbuckling style of that season in that game, but also our naivety in defence against a decent Arsenal team. Yesterday was the total opposite of that - a safety first approach at the expense of more expansive football against a poor United.

 

But your question is fair in that it could well be a turning point for how Brendan sets us up - perhaps the question should be, why is it taking so long to make the change?

[Fox92]

Doubt it. Maddison wider hasn't worked at all, in any first half of any game, but Brendan still persists with it.

[Pliskin]

It may finally teach him that we can’t play this narrow diamond. Simply does not work. 

[stillwater]

Brendan Out 🤪🤪😉

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

The 5 - 2 home defeat when we went into the game confident with 3 wins and 3 draws was the end of Ranieri essentially playing De Laet and Schlupp as wing backs. In came Simpson and Fuchs, the defence tightened and the rest is history. 

 

So will yesterday's reverse persuade Brendan to drop the stupid Maddison wing experiment along with the 2 DMs to get Tielemans going?  And be braver. 

 

If so, we are in a good position to push on and challenge for that top 6 place. 

 

 

Don't know why you are getting some negative reactions as I think it's a very good question to ask! We don't know if the game will be a watershed moment or not, but you are right in that the Arsenal game in 2015 saw Ranieri switch our style and the rest is history. Actually I believe that Ranieri actually asked the players what they thought - if they would be prepared to try a more Italian style and it was after that game they said yes, because they realised that our style left us way too open. A similar thing happened with Conte at Chelsea, he started playing 433, they got beaten by Arsenal at home, after which point they agreed to his 343 setup he used at Juventus and they then won 16 games in a row!

 

But I think the difference with this performance / result is that Rodgers picked that team, not the players. I think everyone on the forum's response has been unanimous in terms of it being too conservative in terms of outlook and performance, but look at the game purely on paper for a second:

- Hamza always plays well when selected and is a Rodgers favourite.

- The tactic saw us get a point at Chelsea and if we had taken our chances, we would have won.

- Gray as terrible as he always seems to be, played very well against Bournemouth and his pace would cause Young problems.

- We conceded a careless penalty.

 

Logically it all makes sense even if in reality it was a stinker! Even after half time it was notable that he didn't make any subs and gave Gray another 15 minutes whereas if that had been me or probably anyone else on the forum, Gray would have been off immediately and probably Barnes and Perez on straight away. So he clearly planned this for a while and believed in that plan. Which is slightly worrying, or perhaps disappointing is a better way to put it, because I think that Man U team is shit and we could have put them to the sword if we didn't play like such cowards.

 

It's amazing how far Leicester have come as a club and it says a lot about how disappointed we all were with that performance. For all the negativity we have the best defence in the league despite having a very young team and are in a decent position in the table. We also need to look at the players, that was a game that was made for some of the young guns to stamp their authority on the game and truly announce themselves to the Premier League and they were anonymous. Rodgers has a very tough job... to balance the expectations of an expectant Chairman and buoyant fans with a young nucleus that lacks experience, and that is not easy to do. I can definitely see why he would be more pragmatic in his approach especially given situations like Javi Gracia losing his job after 4 games, or even Ranieri given the boot from our very own club after rewriting history.

 

But I've got to say that I hope he realises that a midfield 3 of Ndidi, Maddison and Tielemans leads us to playing better. Yes there are weaknesses in that setup which other teams can and will expose - look at the Benitez masterclass from Newcastle last season at the KP where they isolated Ndidi and took advantage. But at the same time when the midfield 3 dominate the game, they can run it and make us look great. Yesterday I felt that our best passages of play came when Tielemans and Maddison were central and working together. It brings out the best in both! In other news, the sky is blue !

 

We will see what happens in time, though I personally think he will be pragmatic again versus Spurs and Liverpool. Against Newcastle he will go for it though I expect. As always I think 10 games is he point in time where better judgements can be made. We've had our first setback now, let's see how we react to it!

 

 

Edited 15 September 2019 by StriderHiryu

[Finnegan]

Given we've got Tottenham next I'll be amazed if he changes. 

[Mark]

He had all summer to think about it as we ended the season with Maddison wide in the last three matches. It’s clear how keen he is given how much he wanted another central midfield option in Praet meaning even less chance of Maddison being played anywhere but out on the left. If Tielemans and Praet end up working great together it might start to make sense but Maddison will suffer regardless.

[ajthefox]

What is the need with these comparisons, christ.

 

 

[HoustonFox]

43 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Don't know why you are getting some negative reactions as I think it's a very good question to ask! We don't know if the game will be a watershed moment or not, but you are right in that the Arsenal game in 2015 saw Ranieri switch our style and the rest is history. Actually I believe that Ranieri actually asked the players what they thought - if they would be prepared to try a more Italian style and it was after that game they said yes, because they realised that our style left us way too open. A similar thing happened with Conte at Chelsea, he started playing 433, they got beaten by Arsenal at home, after which point they agreed to his 343 setup he used at Juventus and they then won 16 games in a row!

 

But I think the difference with this performance / result is that Rodgers picked that team, not the players. I think everyone on the forum's response has been unanimous in terms of it being too conservative in terms of outlook and performance, but look at the game purely on paper for a second:

- Hamza always plays well when selected and is a Rodgers favourite.

- The tactic saw us get a point at Chelsea and if we had taken our chances, we would have won.

- Gray as terrible as he always seems to be, played very well against Bournemouth and his pace would cause Young problems.

- We conceded a careless penalty.

 

Logically it all makes sense even if in reality it was a stinker! Even after half time it was notable that he didn't make any subs and gave Gray another 15 minutes whereas if that had been me or probably anyone else on the forum, Gray would have been off immediately and probably Barnes and Perez on straight away. So he clearly planned this for a while and believed in that plan. Which is slightly worrying, or perhaps disappointing is a better way to put it, because I think that Man U team is shit and we could have put them to the sword if we didn't play like such cowards.

 

It's amazing how far Leicester have come as a club and it says a lot about how disappointed we all were with that performance. For all the negativity we have the best defence in the league despite having a very young team and are in a decent position in the table. We also need to look at the players, that was a game that was made for some of the young guns to stamp their authority on the game and truly announce themselves to the Premier League and they were anonymous. Rodgers has a very tough job... to balance the expectations of an expectant Chairman and buoyant fans with a young nucleus that lacks experience, and that is not easy to do. I can definitely see why he would be more pragmatic in his approach especially given situations like Javi Gracia losing his job after 4 games, or even Ranieri given the boot from our very own club after rewriting history.

 

But I've got to say that I hope he realises that a midfield 3 of Ndidi, Maddison and Tielemans leads us to playing better. Yes there are weaknesses in that setup which other teams can and will expose - look at the Benitez masterclass from Newcastle last season at the KP where they isolated Ndidi and took advantage. But at the same time when the midfield 3 dominate the game, they can run it and make us look great. Yesterday I felt that our best passages of play came when Tielemans and Maddison were central and working together. It brings out the best in both! In other news, the sky is blue !

 

We will see what happens in time, though I personally think he will be pragmatic again versus Spurs and Liverpool. Against Newcastle he will go for it though I expect. As always I think 10 games is he point in time where better judgements can be made. We've had our first setback now, let's see how we react to it!

 

 

Totally agree with you and the OP in hoping this is the aha moment for BR on formation and that Madders is probably one of first names on team sheet after Vardy and Kasper and along with Evans / Wilf should be our spine. 

 

On hauling DG off at HT, I would have done the same, as you said but Matt Piper made a good point on RL after the game that he probably talked to him at HT and then gave him another 15 to (a) see what might happen with direct coaching and feedback, and (b) not to destroy his confidence for the next 6 weeks. 

 

Also against Man U, clearly he wasn’t expecting both Martial and Pogba to be out, hence the starting line up to shore up the middle. In reality, and after seeing the team sheets, I’m sure he was kicking himself for not going with Albrighton as clearly width was going to be the danger area, and James in particular. 

 

Finally, let’s give credit to Man U, they were poor offensively but their pressing from the front and energy in defence was very good. Also Maguire had a very good game. It felt like for some corners, Madders had forgotten he’d changed teams. 

[shailen]

I think too much is being made out of the two defensive midfielders. They defended well yesterday and we made one silly tackle which cost us the game. Both teams cancelled each other out but we know we were far from our best. Did we not play two DMs against Chelsea, City and Everton in that Christmas period last season when we picked up loads of points, and people said it was a masterstroke. Well its effectively the same personnel being played at Old Trafford. 

 

Against arsenal that season we won the league, we played well that game, but we were clearly too open that day playing with two attacking full backs in a rigid 4-4-2 system. There was a clear need for us to find a way to become more solid and Fuchs and Simpson were the answer. I dont think the two situations are the same personally. 

[HybridFox]

Time will tell I guess.

 

I actually don't think Tottenham is a good game to go by as we do tend to be more fluid at home.

 

Liverpool away will be the acid test. Taken a safety approach in all 3 top six trips under Rodgers so far (Man City last season, Chelsea, United). Let's see if we go there with a bit more emphasis because we can play.

[StriderHiryu]

7 minutes ago, HoustonFox said:

Totally agree with you and the OP in hoping this is the aha moment for BR on formation and that Madders is probably one of first names on team sheet after Vardy and Kasper and along with Evans / Wilf should be our spine. 

 

On hauling DG off at HT, I would have done the same, as you said but Matt Piper made a good point on RL after the game that he probably talked to him at HT and then gave him another 15 to (a) see what might happen with direct coaching and feedback, and (b) not to destroy his confidence for the next 6 weeks. 

 

Also against Man U, clearly he wasn’t expecting both Martial and Pogba to be out, hence the starting line up to shore up the middle. In reality, and after seeing the team sheets, I’m sure he was kicking himself for not going with Albrighton as clearly width was going to be the danger area, and James in particular. 

 

Finally, let’s give credit to Man U, they were poor offensively but their pressing from the front and energy in defence was very good. Also Maguire had a very good game. It felt like for some corners, Madders had forgotten he’d changed teams. 

That's is a good point to be fair. Even if he was shocking, if he had a good week in training and he is part of the squad then it may not do him too good to haul him off and Rodgers is a good man-manager. The flipside of that of course is that it's 15 minutes less effective that the team was before changes were made. Barnes and Perez both did a lot more than Gray did whilst they are on.

 

Got to disagree with you about giving Man U credit though! I thought they were their usual crap selves since Fergie left. A 400m version of a Tony Pulis side if I am being honest! Other than their penalty and Rashford's free kick I never felt they threatened us seriously and they lost control of the midfield several times over. The problem is though that teams with those resources will not be terrible for long! This is one of those rare seasons where they are there for the taking.

 

One thing I will always admire about our 15/16 side is that when they had the chance of a lifetime, they grabbed it with both hands. Very rarely did they put in a timid display where you felt they didn't give it their all that season. Maybe Bournemouth at home and Liverpool away I felt we didn't go for it, but every other time players made themselves be counted. Kante didn't give two monkeys as he stole the ball from David Silva, Hazard, Ozil etc and likewise Mahez had the arrogance to think he was the Algerian Messi and was going to twine his way past defenders regardless of if they cost 1m or 50m in the case of that amazing skill versus Otamendi. It didn't always come off for either, but pretty much all of our side played with heart, desire and bravery. This current bunch is still young, but that game was their first big challenge, and we've Spursed it right up! I felt only Vardy took it to the opposition by beating Maguire for the ball and going in on De Gea. I really hope the others learn from him in that you've got to stand up and be counted, and not just let the game pass you by. Easier said than done though! I have to say in my younger years I let quite a few games pass me by, especially when not playing well . It's quite a lot harder than you think, even if you are a multi-millionaire footballer. Not everyone has that kind of mental strength.

[HoustonFox]

1 minute ago, StriderHiryu said:

That's is a good point to be fair. Even if he was shocking, if he had a good week in training and he is part of the squad then it may not do him too good to haul him off and Rodgers is a good man-manager. The flipside of that of course is that it's 15 minutes less effective that the team was before changes were made. Barnes and Perez both did a lot more than Gray did whilst they are on.

 

Got to disagree with you about giving Man U credit though! I thought they were their usual crap selves since Fergie left. A 400m version of a Tony Pulis side if I am being honest! Other than their penalty and Rashford's free kick I never felt they threatened us seriously and they lost control of the midfield several times over. The problem is though that teams with those resources will not be terrible for long! This is one of those rare seasons where they are there for the taking.

 

One thing I will always admire about our 15/16 side is that when they had the chance of a lifetime, they grabbed it with both hands. Very rarely did they put in a timid display where you felt they didn't give it their all that season. Maybe Bournemouth at home and Liverpool away I felt we didn't go for it, but every other time players made themselves be counted. Kante didn't give two monkeys as he stole the ball from David Silva, Hazard, Ozil etc and likewise Mahez had the arrogance to think he was the Algerian Messi and was going to twine his way past defenders regardless of if they cost 1m or 50m in the case of that amazing skill versus Otamendi. It didn't always come off for either, but pretty much all of our side played with heart, desire and bravery. This current bunch is still young, but that game was their first big challenge, and we've Spursed it right up! I felt only Vardy took it to the opposition by beating Maguire for the ball and going in on De Gea. I really hope the others learn from him in that you've got to stand up and be counted, and not just let the game pass you by. Easier said than done though! I have to say in my younger years I let quite a few games pass me by, especially when not playing well . It's quite a lot harder than you think, even if you are a multi-millionaire footballer. Not everyone has that kind of mental strength.

I said to give them credit for pressing and putting us under pressure - didn’t say they did anything else (in fact I said they were poor offensively) ! 

[Foxxed]

I'm going for a no.

[UPinCarolina]

It's feeling like Rodgers has a bit of the Puel stubbornness in him - we've all been singing his praises, and rightfully so - but he's seemed reluctant to change tactics even when evidence strongly suggests that it's necessary. Then again, he's the gaffer and I'm just a schmuck on a forum.

[FoxInTheBirstallBox]

Preat could be our kante this season, not in terms of position, but the impact kante has after we started to play him after that defeat. 

 

Because I'm sure as hell that Brenda won't play gray again so there is a place in the team up for grabs unless he plays a wide man. 

 

Either way I think its a good comparison and it could very well be similar 

[Guest]

Lots of people are pinning their hopes on Praet. Silva II.

[HighPeakFox]

35 minutes ago, FIF said:

Lots of people are pinning their hopes on Praet. Silva II.

Have you written him off already, or are you simply making a comparison in people's hopes? 

[Danny Clender]

I think if Maddison continues playing as a winger then no, but the fact is, Maddison is not playing as a winger, he's everywhere.

Perhaps the wider issue there is that Barnes can be the "winger" who can play in that position, but isn't.

 

We'll see against Tottenham if Rodgers chooses the fans version of the team or continues with his own vision and development, I'm fairly confident I know which way this goes. 

 

Funny how we're playing like Steve Walsh's joke of 'Drinkwater in the middle with Kante either side' except it's Hamza and Wilf either side of Tielemans.

I reckon that's the way it's going to continue, to develop Choudhury to drive forward, he did on Saturday and could have scored.

Ok, it's not just about being in the box, but moving play forward quickly, he has to develop this and not just be sidelined. 

Praet is the mystery option here and perhaps he can do it better, but I like that Rodgers is continuing with Choudhury at present. 

 

Guardian today quoting Rodgers comparing Maddison to Couthinho, to me that clearly says he's not playing Maddison on the wing. 

 

So, we wait until 11:30 GMT this Saturday to see what's happening.