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Nalis

Season focus - Cups, league or both?

By Nalis, in Leicester City Forum

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Captain...

Captain...

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

As clubs are effectively businesses they, despite what they may say,  might target things differently than supporters and understandably so. I hadn't a clue what winning these competitions meant in monetary terms until I looked.

 

Carabao Cup = winner £100,000 plus place in second qualifying round of Europa League (the latter may even been deemed by some a hassle the next season).

 

FA Cup = £2m plus Europa League place proper.

 

4th place finish in Premiership = £32m prize money plus Champions League place.

 

Champions League, as we know, generates multi millions plus helps you to perhaps retain your better players and attract better recruits. 

 

From a business point of view therefore the priorities are obvious. Whilst it is nice to win the league cup, it hardly pays to to risk injury or fatigue to your better players when there are bigger fish to potentially fry. If you are a low to middling team it may be worth going for as you realistically have bugger all else to go for. In the current position we remarkably find yourselves in, we've a decent squad in depth that it is good to keep fit and sharp in such lesser competitions perhsps but  ... in our current position, top 4 overwhelmingly has to be our total focus for the long term betterment of the club. 

 

Your numbers are a little out of date, winning the fa cup final gets you 3.6m, but that doesn't account for the prize money from all the other rounds which is around 3.15m then there is the extra gate receipts and tv money.

 

4th place in the league is 32m but 5th place is 30m, 6th 28m. The difference in a single league position is about 2m. So winning the FA cup and finishing 8th is better financially than going out at the first hurdle and finishing 5th.

 

Obviously 4th comes with a CL spot which is massive 6 guaranteed games in the elite competition and 15m just for qualifying.

 

Ultimately success brings money, the more we win the more we earn so just go out to win every game because you can try and manage the fixtures, like we did vs Newport, like Spurs did vs Dortmund in 2016 to concentrate on the league and get nothing.

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foxinsocks

foxinsocks

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Posted
11 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

The flip side to this is the Fa Cup is the one trophy we have never won and this could be our best opportunity yet! 

Especially when you think Liverpool’s hectic Christmas period, Man City and Pep really need a Champions League win and we are arguably the best of the rest.

Bey we have all the rounds to play.

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volpeazzurro

volpeazzurro

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1 hour ago, Captain... said:

Your numbers are a little out of date, winning the fa cup final gets you 3.6m, but that doesn't account for the prize money from all the other rounds which is around 3.15m then there is the extra gate receipts and tv money.

 

4th place in the league is 32m but 5th place is 30m, 6th 28m. The difference in a single league position is about 2m. So winning the FA cup and finishing 8th is better financially than going out at the first hurdle and finishing 5th.

 

Obviously 4th comes with a CL spot which is massive 6 guaranteed games in the elite competition and 15m just for qualifying.

 

Ultimately success brings money, the more we win the more we earn so just go out to win every game because you can try and manage the fixtures, like we did vs Newport, like Spurs did vs Dortmund in 2016 to concentrate on the league and get nothing.

Yes understand where your coming from and just quickly looked up prize money on Google etc so quite possibly out of date.

 

Obviously gate receipts would also count for Champions League figures also, all of which would as sell outs, be considerably more than an preliminary round league cup tie. I think my point is, this year more than the last couple, is that we are in quite a different league position ie 2nd with points in the bag and a very decent squad. I see no problem in early rounds of a cup competition against lower league opposition, of using that squad to it's full. It benefits by getting lesser played squad members match sharp and ready to slot into the team should they be required plus, it keeps squad members happy and gives an opportunity to show a manager in a real game situation that they're worthy of consideration. 

 

Every club is susceptible to a blip like Newport yet on paper, our team should have been more than good enough to cope that day. I think we have a better squad now in any case and a motivational manager that would have any of his teams hyped up to the task. Equally, you could pull a Man City or Liverpool at an early stage also!

 

If we were lying in 10th but reasonably sure of relegation safety, I would say yes, throw the kitchen sink at it. But, I see this season as potentially defining. Apart from all the riches that the Champions League place may offer, in a year when potentially Man Utd, Arsenal and perhaps even Spurs may miss out, qualification would give food for thought to some of our currently better young players that may be having their heads turned slightly at the moment. It would give us also, that one more transfer window as a real attraction to potential new talent. 

 

I think we'd be trying to win every game and competition under Rodgers in any case but, if we were to pull Newport again in a midweek game in our first round of the FA cup, then I wouldn't do anything too much different to last time. I would rest Vardy and see if Iheanacho or Perez could step up into his boots. Why risk him getting injured for such a game, rest him for the Premiership. The same for certain other key players. We genuinely have something special within our grasp this season for which we'll need our best players, we can even afford to make the odd slip up which you can't in a cup competition. A trip to Wembley in the League cup would be a nice day out but, in the greater scheme of things it's not that great for the future of the club.

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Xen

Xen

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Posted

Top 4 has to be the priority. The financial reward alone for getting into the CL puts us on a whole new level and we'll be able to attract an even higher caliber of player, and hopefully that'll put us in a good position to maintain that level of performance as a top 4 club longer term.

 

Obviously the cups - and the fa cup in particular - are what we want to see as fans, but they won't set us up for the future like CL football could, and they'll still be there next season. I can't see this team breaking apart in the summer so we'll still be in just as good a position to challenge for domestic silverware next year.

 

That being said, I think we're playing well enough and have a light enough schedule that we don't really need to put out weakened sides at any point, unlike some of our rivals. I think we've managed it pretty well so far in the league cup, resting a handful of players but still putting out a relatively strong side.

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Nick

Nick

Posted
Posted (edited)

If we want to grow as a club in terms of spending sensibly and expanding the competition for places with serious quality players, winning a cup won’t really help that an awful lot. Though it would be lovely (especially an FA Cup) the £70 million notes for Champions League Appearances allows us to have a chance of retaining players, upping salaries and competing again both for Top 4 and giving the CL competition a good go. I also understand about winning mentalities and not suggesting we field reserve teams or anything in cup competitions, just that if you are asking me personally which I want more or would prioritise if I had to, it would be the Champions League finishing places.

 

And I just wanna hear that music at the KP one more time...

Edited by Nick
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Nick

Nick

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Posted
37 minutes ago, Xen said:

Top 4 has to be the priority. The financial reward alone for getting into the CL puts us on a whole new level and we'll be able to attract an even higher caliber of player, and hopefully that'll put us in a good position to maintain that level of performance as a top 4 club longer term.

 

Obviously the cups - and the fa cup in particular - are what we want to see as fans, but they won't set us up for the future like CL football could, and they'll still be there next season. I can't see this team breaking apart in the summer so we'll still be in just as good a position to challenge for domestic silverware next year.

 

That being said, I think we're playing well enough and have a light enough schedule that we don't really need to put out weakened sides at any point, unlike some of our rivals. I think we've managed it pretty well so far in the league cup, resting a handful of players but still putting out a relatively strong side.

Yeah, this basically! 

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Captain...

Captain...

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1 hour ago, volpeazzurro said:

Yes understand where your coming from and just quickly looked up prize money on Google etc so quite possibly out of date.

 

Obviously gate receipts would also count for Champions League figures also, all of which would as sell outs, be considerably more than an preliminary round league cup tie. I think my point is, this year more than the last couple, is that we are in quite a different league position ie 2nd with points in the bag and a very decent squad. I see no problem in early rounds of a cup competition against lower league opposition, of using that squad to it's full. It benefits by getting lesser played squad members match sharp and ready to slot into the team should they be required plus, it keeps squad members happy and gives an opportunity to show a manager in a real game situation that they're worthy of consideration. 

 

Every club is susceptible to a blip like Newport yet on paper, our team should have been more than good enough to cope that day. I think we have a better squad now in any case and a motivational manager that would have any of his teams hyped up to the task. Equally, you could pull a Man City or Liverpool at an early stage also!

 

If we were lying in 10th but reasonably sure of relegation safety, I would say yes, throw the kitchen sink at it. But, I see this season as potentially defining. Apart from all the riches that the Champions League place may offer, in a year when potentially Man Utd, Arsenal and perhaps even Spurs may miss out, qualification would give food for thought to some of our currently better young players that may be having their heads turned slightly at the moment. It would give us also, that one more transfer window as a real attraction to potential new talent. 

 

I think we'd be trying to win every game and competition under Rodgers in any case but, if we were to pull Newport again in a midweek game in our first round of the FA cup, then I wouldn't do anything too much different to last time. I would rest Vardy and see if Iheanacho or Perez could step up into his boots. Why risk him getting injured for such a game, rest him for the Premiership. The same for certain other key players. We genuinely have something special within our grasp this season for which we'll need our best players, we can even afford to make the odd slip up which you can't in a cup competition. A trip to Wembley in the League cup would be a nice day out but, in the greater scheme of things it's not that great for the future of the club.

My biggest issue with Newport last year was that it was such a disjointed team, there were no partnerships nor understanding between players. Even if we had scraped through we would have learned very little from our fringe players. I would like us to rotate more throughout the season and not just use cup games, Ward, Fuchs, Justin, Praet, Choudry, Albrighton, Gray are capable of playing in the first team and will need to if we have injuries. Morgan, Mendy, Iheanacho to a lesser extent then we have Benkovic hopefully ready to step up.

 

If we throw them all in against lower league opposition we are asking for trouble. 

 

If we want to be a club that can regularly manage a European campaign and the rigours of domestic competition we need to move away from a fixed first XI and start using the squad to allow us to compete for domestic cups, the league and European cups.

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foxy boxing

foxy boxing

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Posted

Let's just take every game as they come and try to do our best and put teams out that can win the games in the cup competitions and see where it gets us. it would be enormous for us to win some silverware. obviously we want to stay in the Champions League spots but there is no reason we can't fight for both.

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volpeazzurro

volpeazzurro

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Captain... said:

My biggest issue with Newport last year was that it was such a disjointed team, there were no partnerships nor understanding between players. Even if we had scraped through we would have learned very little from our fringe players. I would like us to rotate more throughout the season and not just use cup games, Ward, Fuchs, Justin, Praet, Choudry, Albrighton, Gray are capable of playing in the first team and will need to if we have injuries. Morgan, Mendy, Iheanacho to a lesser extent then we have Benkovic hopefully ready to step up.

 

If we throw them all in against lower league opposition we are asking for trouble. 

 

If we want to be a club that can regularly manage a European campaign and the rigours of domestic competition we need to move away from a fixed first XI and start using the squad to allow us to compete for domestic cups, the league and European cups.

Yes, I think that more thoughtful use of a squad as a whole is what is required and, as you rightly say, should we get European a squad has to be managed. For example, I would really like to see how Perez can perform in the Vardy role 'just in case' because if he can't hack it, we need to know now really. He's barely good enough out on the right for the moment in the Premiershop (imo) let alone Europe so, if he can't cover the Vardy position, arguably we need both another winger and striker in the summer. In which case, Perez is going to be merely an expensive substitute. Compared with last year however, we have certain players like Praet, Choudhury, Gray and Albrighton that could be reasonably relied upon to slot in without too much disruption. Sadly, and I hope I'm very wrong, I can't see Iheanacho making the grade so we need to double check perhaps in a cup game before we get rid in the summer. Your approach is sensible and as you point out, doesn't slavishly demand a 1st eleven.

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Deeg67

Deeg67

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Posted

Impossible to overstate the importance of CL qualification if we want to make this a recurring theme and not another one-season miracle.  Money is a big part of it, but the ability to attract a different sort of player (and keep the ones we have a little longer) is equally important. An FA Cup?  Nice.  Gravy.  But I want the actual steak.

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nnfox

nnfox

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Posted

I look at the bigger picture here.  We are currently experiencing a truly golden age in our club's history.  I would love Champions League qualification again, of course.  But I'd also like to look back on this 5-6 year period and see more silverware.  A couple of trophies over the next two or three seasons, especially with the backdrop of the current Man City and Liverpool sides, would enable us to look back in 20 years time with unbelievable pride.

 

Champions League would be the icing on the cake, but there is no trophy for finishing 4th.

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Mickyblueeyes

Mickyblueeyes

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Posted

We have to concentrate on the league and one cup. Trophies build legacies. No one would’ve remembered 2015/16 if we’d come second - even though that would’ve been a great achievement. Being quarters on the league cup means we have to take in seriously. 

 

Whether we can take both cups seriously really does depend on who we draw on the fa cup. If we get lower league opposition in the say round 3-5, it gives us a real opportunity to go after that cup too as we can rest players early on

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