Starmer Next Labour Leader

[LiberalFox]

I don't think I've ever watched a PMQ's, actually think I watched the first one Corbyn did and it was a shambles. Yet you see clips from them and they get reported in the press. Even the right leaning press has been reporting that Johnson has been getting trashed. If it carries on it certainly won't help the Conservatives.

[Stan]

18 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

So Boris isn't doing PMQ's today...again...

On the bottle....again?

[Bilo]

34 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

So Boris isn't doing PMQ's today...again...

Presumably he's taking his paternity leave every Wednesday for the next 12 weeks. 

[LiberalFox]

23 hours ago, SecretPro said:

It's not ironic. I have my own biases, granted. Everybody does. But some people rely wholly on those biases whilst others pay more attention to policy and are willing to change opinion/voting intention. In this thread we've established that Starmer, though it is early days, is looking like the most credible leader of the Labour party in a decade and yet there are posters that will simply mock/take the piss at every opportunity because the thought of 'voting labour' pains them, and dare I say it, vice versa. That's fine, voting will always be this way. In much the same way that most voters will try and vote for what they perceive is the best deal for them on a personal level, rather than for society as a whole, which is fine. Humans are a selfish species. We all do it. Whilst there is a two party system it's always going to be a 'my side are better than your side' argument and everything is washed down, even in the commons, to petty back and fourth arguments.

 

For instance, I've voted for different parties at different points in my life and I've always tried to do so with a mix of my best interests, the countries best interests, taking into account policy etc. I'd rather not vote based on a politicians 'character' but in modern times this has become a big thing, probably the biggest, to a large percentage of voters. Again, I'm guilty of this in some respects as the majority of others are, but this isn't good for politics.

 

If I voted with my heart rather than my head then I wouldn't vote for either Labour or Tory, but the nature of the system dictates that I should vote for one or the other if I actually want anything to get done and compromise where necessary. It's counterintuitive to what I've already said because this means I'm not voting purely on 'policy' but then you have to take into consideration the chances of realistic success and this is where the critical thinking comes in and not letting biases take over etc. I'm a conservation ecologist by trade - my life revolves around natural history and the environment. I'm educated enough to know that in the grand scheme of things brexit, corona etc mean very little, they are superficial (as disrespectful as that may sound), in terms of the bigger picture. Now that should mean that the thread on here 'Gardening and Wildlife' would be my go-to thread when I log on - it isn't, in fact it's the opposite, because whenever I take a look I realise the majority of people in that thread know very little about nature, ecology, biodiversity and how every ounce of it has an immeasurable impact on our lives. That's not me being rude to the people on that thread - I don't know anything about cars, or James Bond etc, but if I extrapolate the opinions on that thread to the wider population then it becomes clear (and it is clear, from my line of work) ecology ranks very low in public concern and more importantly understanding. Thus in much the same way that the 'gardening and wildlife' thread is not my go-to place, the party that I want to vote for isn't my go-to party because voting that way isn't going to achieve anyting. This is disheartening, massively, but that's politics. In the words of Aldo Leopold "One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Much of the damage inflicted on land is quite invisible to laymen. An ecologist must either harden his shell and make believe that the consequences of science are none of his business, or he must be the doctor who sees the marks of death in a community that believes itself well and does not want to be told otherwise".

 

When it is so obvious how complex voting and making the right decision is, it then irks when people water it down to an 'us or them' and take every opportunity to mock or belittle the 'other side' because people are so set in their ways rather than being prepared to stand back, see the wider picture, accept failures along with successes, show appreciation, share ideas, broaden horizons, change opinions...I just don't get the need right now for the mindset of 'I'm a Tory' or 'I'm Labour' and that's all that matters. I've certainly been guilty of it, in fact I was a total arse in the run up the GE because of various frustrations that have built up over time, both in a personal context and a wider one. I was probably very horrible to @MattP amongst others, I probably got sucked into lots of petty argument and debate and mud-slinging. BUT it wasn't that long ago that I myself voted Tory. Even so, it's time to accept that things need to change and I just hope more people use critical thinking to try and achieve a greater good rather than stick to old party lines, loyalties and pre-conceived ideas/influences. Whoever you vote for, having Starmer around looks to be a good thing for politics in general. Surely the better our politicians the better our politics. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having said all that. I'd rather vote for a turd than a Tory again. (I'm joshing)

You should be a Lib Dem 

[Nick]

23 hours ago, SecretPro said:

It's not ironic. I have my own biases, granted. Everybody does. But some people rely wholly on those biases whilst others pay more attention to policy and are willing to change opinion/voting intention. In this thread we've established that Starmer, though it is early days, is looking like the most credible leader of the Labour party in a decade and yet there are posters that will simply mock/take the piss at every opportunity because the thought of 'voting labour' pains them, and dare I say it, vice versa. That's fine, voting will always be this way. In much the same way that most voters will try and vote for what they perceive is the best deal for them on a personal level, rather than for society as a whole, which is fine. Humans are a selfish species. We all do it. Whilst there is a two party system it's always going to be a 'my side are better than your side' argument and everything is washed down, even in the commons, to petty back and fourth arguments.

 

For instance, I've voted for different parties at different points in my life and I've always tried to do so with a mix of my best interests, the countries best interests, taking into account policy etc. I'd rather not vote based on a politicians 'character' but in modern times this has become a big thing, probably the biggest, to a large percentage of voters. Again, I'm guilty of this in some respects as the majority of others are, but this isn't good for politics.

 

If I voted with my heart rather than my head then I wouldn't vote for either Labour or Tory, but the nature of the system dictates that I should vote for one or the other if I actually want anything to get done and compromise where necessary. It's counterintuitive to what I've already said because this means I'm not voting purely on 'policy' but then you have to take into consideration the chances of realistic success and this is where the critical thinking comes in and not letting biases take over etc. I'm a conservation ecologist by trade - my life revolves around natural history and the environment. I'm educated enough to know that in the grand scheme of things brexit, corona etc mean very little, they are superficial (as disrespectful as that may sound), in terms of the bigger picture. Now that should mean that the thread on here 'Gardening and Wildlife' would be my go-to thread when I log on - it isn't, in fact it's the opposite, because whenever I take a look I realise the majority of people in that thread know very little about nature, ecology, biodiversity and how every ounce of it has an immeasurable impact on our lives. That's not me being rude to the people on that thread - I don't know anything about cars, or James Bond etc, but if I extrapolate the opinions on that thread to the wider population then it becomes clear (and it is clear, from my line of work) ecology ranks very low in public concern and more importantly understanding. Thus in much the same way that the 'gardening and wildlife' thread is not my go-to place, the party that I want to vote for isn't my go-to party because voting that way isn't going to achieve anyting. This is disheartening, massively, but that's politics. In the words of Aldo Leopold "One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Much of the damage inflicted on land is quite invisible to laymen. An ecologist must either harden his shell and make believe that the consequences of science are none of his business, or he must be the doctor who sees the marks of death in a community that believes itself well and does not want to be told otherwise".

 

When it is so obvious how complex voting and making the right decision is, it then irks when people water it down to an 'us or them' and take every opportunity to mock or belittle the 'other side' because people are so set in their ways rather than being prepared to stand back, see the wider picture, accept failures along with successes, show appreciation, share ideas, broaden horizons, change opinions...I just don't get the need right now for the mindset of 'I'm a Tory' or 'I'm Labour' and that's all that matters. I've certainly been guilty of it, in fact I was a total arse in the run up the GE because of various frustrations that have built up over time, both in a personal context and a wider one. I was probably very horrible to @MattP amongst others, I probably got sucked into lots of petty argument and debate and mud-slinging. BUT it wasn't that long ago that I myself voted Tory. Even so, it's time to accept that things need to change and I just hope more people use critical thinking to try and achieve a greater good rather than stick to old party lines, loyalties and pre-conceived ideas/influences. Whoever you vote for, having Starmer around looks to be a good thing for politics in general. Surely the better our politicians the better our politics. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having said all that. I'd rather vote for a turd than a Tory again. (I'm joshing)

[LiberalFox]

23 hours ago, Webbo said:

I vote Conservative because I believe in small govt and the freedom of the individual. There's never going to be a time when Labour are the better option for that. Does that mean I agree with everything this govt does? No. Am I sometimes disappointed with them? Often. 

 

There are people with the opposite instincts to me, govt knows best collectivism, they tend to vote Labour and if that's what they believe, good luck to them. I wouldn't say they were stupid, evil or brainwashed. They just have a different POV. 

Would you ever consider voting differently? 

[Mike Oxlong]

2 hours ago, SecretPro said:

So Boris isn't doing PMQ's today...again...

Seems like he is 

 

Fake news or changed plan ? 

[bovril]

Genuine question - do Tories who vote Tory "for small government" and individual rights believe they ever actually get that with the Conservative party?  

Edited 20 May 2020 by bovril

[SecretPro]

3 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Seems like he is 

 

Fake news or changed plan ? 

It was reported that he wouldn't be attending last night. Bit of a backlash so whether it was fake news or he's changed his plans who knows. 

[Mike Oxlong]

Hancock looks like he needs a toilet break  

[Mike Oxlong]

4 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

It was reported that he wouldn't be attending last night. Bit of a backlash so whether it was fake news or he's changed his plans who knows. 

Maybe he was told from above that he had to go ? 

[Lionator]

There was a lot of projection today. Johnson accusing Starmer of his own shortcomings.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

2 hours ago, SecretPro said:

So Boris isn't doing PMQ's today...again...

 

2 hours ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Still receiving medical treatment for a whipped ass from last week  

 

1 hour ago, Bilo said:

Presumably he's taking his paternity leave every Wednesday for the next 12 weeks. 

And there standing at the despatch box, leading PMQs, is the Prime Minister himself.

 

[Mike Oxlong]

1 minute ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

 

 

And there standing at the despatch box, leading PMQs, is the Prime Minister himself.

 

As I said above 

 

Keep up Geoff 

[Dahnsouff]

29 minutes ago, Lionator said:

There was a lot of projection today. Johnson accusing Starmer of his own shortcomings.

Oh dear, the lefties won`t like that one bit 

 

[Bilo]

More aggressive from Johnson and more noise from his backbenchers, but still limited substance. He may live to regret pinning a date of June 1st on himself as well.

[Bilo]

That look of abject terror on Hancock's face when Starmer quoted the government's own words. 

[Guest MattP]

Went for my walk at 11 and didn't bother to record PMQ's and came back to this.

 

Wtf

 

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, bovril said:

Genuine question - do Tories who vote Tory "for small government" and individual rights believe they ever actually get that with the Conservative party?  

Certainly not anytime soon, probably not in my lifetime now with the amount of young people who seem to enjoy state intervention. (Not to mention it will be totally normal for them having lived through the banking crisis and now this)

 

Although like most voters, when election time comes you realise it's a choice between the two and if the Tories had stood on the communist manifesto I'd probably still have voted for them in 2019 rather than have the country run by Corbyn, Abbott, Butler, Burgon etc

[Bilo]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Went for my walk at 11 and didn't bother to record PMQ's and came back to this.

 

Wtf

 

It was a take so detached from reality that I could only post this in response. 

 

 

[Voll Blau]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Went for my walk at 11 and didn't bother to record PMQ's and came back to this.

 

Wtf

 

I'm not sure any exchange in which the PM had to be reminded - soberly - by the leader of the opposition that 34,000 deaths on his watch definitely does constitute negative news could be described as him having "completely turned the tables".

 

 

Starmer wasn't anywhere near as as eviscerating as the previous couple of weeks, that's true, but if that one's going to be considered a good win for Johnson then that's a pretty low bar that's been set. There's still too much bluster, too many attempts to deflect responsibility and not enough reassurance in his answers - which is what we all want and need right now.

[Webbo]

2 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

Would you ever consider voting differently? 

I voted for the brexit party in the euro elections. 

[Brizzle Fox]

21 minutes ago, MattP said:

Went for my walk at 11 and didn't bother to record PMQ's and came back to this.

 

Wtf

 

There is probably no bigger cheerleader for Johnson in the 'media' than Hodges. If Bojo said black was white Hodges would agree with him. He'd probably let him bang his wife as well if he asked nicely in Latin (or is that Harry Cole...). 

 

Just ridiculous frankly. 

[SecretPro]

Imagine after all this, telling NHS staff from abroad that they need to pay over £600 to use the NHS, including the very same Drs who saved your own life. I don't think Starmer really needed to do anything at PMQs, this policy has done it all for him. 

Edited 20 May 2020 by SecretPro

[Webbo]

2 hours ago, bovril said:

Genuine question - do Tories who vote Tory "for small government" and individual rights believe they ever actually get that with the Conservative party?  

Not as much as I'd like. Unfortunately a lot of people in this country believe the govt can solve everything. The "something must be done brigade" hold too much sway. If you don't want constant hysterically negative press you have to go with the flow. 

 

With the individual freedom, the tories won't regulate the press as Labour certainly would have done, they resist some of the more crazy authoritarian political correctness. 

 

As I said they often disappoint me, but we're at least on the same page.