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Strokes

Getting brexit done!

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2 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

Because since that vote there's been a huge change in Scotland's constitutional position which it showed very clearly that it didn't want. It has then effectively been completely sidelined in what happens next. It's only right that its people should get a say in whether they prefer to be part of the UK or the EU, it's not for England to drag Scotland somewhere it doesn't want to be.

 

I'll admit I'm not much of a unionist in its present form and I'd happily play fast and loose with the union. I'd be surprised if independence won, who could watch Brexit and think I want to do that all over again but about 10x worse, and it would genuinely settle the question for a long time. Plus I see a potential upside for parts of England and Wales to work with Scotland to change the UK's constitutional settlement and get away from the awful centralisation in Westminster, that opportunity was squandered last time.

Not really, it was well known that the independence vote would have seen Scotland removed from the EU.

Gaining independence from the union does not mean Scotland will stay a part of the EU, in fact quite the opposite.

There as far as I am aware no poll that shows clearly a change that people didn’t want.

The General Election shows people are fed up with the Tories and didn’t trust either Corbyn or Libs to look after their interests. It shows they want a strong voice in Westminster, it does not show in anyway that any of the 2,000,000 people who voted remain have changed their minds.

In the aftermath of the last independence vote the SNP has 56 seats, compared to the 48 now, and with their popular vote less than the amount of people who voted leave. 

Despite what Sturgeon or any media says there is no mandate for a second vote and with Borris having a sizeable majority and no seats in Scotland to lose, there is no way there is a second vote any time soon.

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25 minutes ago, Sampson said:

It depends on the individual state.

 

I think Hong Komg or Macau would be much more prosperous if they didn't still have to drain economically into China.

 

Think many of the Eastern block countries have massively benefited from not having their economy siphoned off towards Russia.

 

Czech Republic and Slovakia are also both much more prosperous since their split.

 

The argument I suppose is whether Scotland's North sea oil allows it to feel it would be the same.

 

At the moment, certainly to a lot of people in non-London England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland it feels like they work hard, pay their taxes and contribute to society but they never see any tangible benefit or investment to paying these taxes, because it feels like all their taxes just go to building infrastructure and skyscrapers in London which mean nothing to your average worker in Birmingham, Swansea or Glasgow. And London just feels like another world to the rest of the UK.

So really we need a more federal UK? 

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I said this on the election thread but I'll repeat it here:

 

Well, it seems now the board is yours, Brexiteers - congratulations, you have the control that you desired.

The work, the results and more importantly the responsibility now lie with you - both good or bad. You said that Brexit would be a success for the UK, now it's time to show that is the case.

The world is watching. Best of luck.

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40 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

Not really, it was well known that the independence vote would have seen Scotland removed from the EU.

Gaining independence from the union does not mean Scotland will stay a part of the EU, in fact quite the opposite.

There as far as I am aware no poll that shows clearly a change that people didn’t want.

The General Election shows people are fed up with the Tories and didn’t trust either Corbyn or Libs to look after their interests. It shows they want a strong voice in Westminster, it does not show in anyway that any of the 2,000,000 people who voted remain have changed their minds.

In the aftermath of the last independence vote the SNP has 56 seats, compared to the 48 now, and with their popular vote less than the amount of people who voted leave. 

Despite what Sturgeon or any media says there is no mandate for a second vote and with Borris having a sizeable majority and no seats in Scotland to lose, there is no way there is a second vote any time soon.

Well they were told that remaining in the UK was the only way to be guarantee part of the EU. That's now demonstrably false. At least with independence they have the option, whereas right now they have no choice but to be dragged along by the English. If an independent Scotland wants to be in the EU, it will be part of the EU. It will face challenges getting there (currency) and it would require a border but if its wants to it will be a member.

 

You are though right about the GE, I don't think it really does give them a huge mandate to seek a new referendum. That's why it should wait until after the Scottish elections in 2021 which will return a definite mandate. And when it does it will be crass for the English think its for them to decide whether the Scottish have the right to choose self-determination when the UK constitutional settlement has let them down. 

 

I'm not making a case for what they should choose, I don't care what they do. But they should have the choice given to them because their situation now is so much different to the last time they voted. 

Edited by Kopfkino
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20 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Oh **** off you sore loser.  Did Tories stop working to improve the U.K. when Blair won? No.  Suck it up and work to make things better.  

Evidently that comment touched a nerve - apologies.

 

Allow me to clarify my point - I was being sincere in wishing luck and while of course unity is desirable, expecting it to happen with the way the lines are drawn now is optimistic to the point of being naive. With respect, this is a vastly different situation in a vastly different UK and divisions are much, much more stark than 1997.

 

If the folks who want Brexit want it to be a success, they're going to have to do most of the legwork themselves - at least at first - simply because the people the people on the other side believe most strongly (rightly or wrongly) that the path being taken is going to be an overall negative one. Convincing them otherwise will take more than words and asking folks to "work together" - it's going to take results.

 

How can it be expected that someone will suddenly follow a path they absolutely do not believe in - in the face of what evidence they believe they have - simply because someone else told them that they should? I'm not saying that they shouldn't. I'm saying that it's unrealistic to expect.

 

Speaking personally, I don't get the "sore loser" remark either - as I said earlier in the election thread, my feelings on the topic are pretty much entirely ambivalent apart from a worry about scientific co-operation and how vulnerable people might be affected, but that's the case worldwide as well as the UK.

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I know the SNP won the vast majority of the vote in Scotland, but their percentage vote was similar to that who voted to leave the UK in the referendum. I think there may be abetter case for a referendum if Scotland are actually poorer after the UK leaves the EU , as Sturgeon insists they will be.

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10 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Evidently that comment touched a nerve - apologies.

 

Allow me to clarify my point - I was being sincere in wishing luck and while of course unity is desirable, expecting it to happen with the way the lines are drawn now is optimistic to the point of being naive. With respect, this is a vastly different situation in a vastly different UK and divisions are much, much more stark than 1997.

 

If the folks who want Brexit want it to be a success, they're going to have to do most of the legwork themselves - at least at first - simply because the people the people on the other side believe most strongly (rightly or wrongly) that the path being taken is going to be an overall negative one. Convincing them otherwise will take more than words and asking folks to "work together" - it's going to take results.

 

How can it be expected that someone will suddenly follow a path they absolutely do not believe in - in the face of what evidence they believe they have - simply because someone else told them that they should? I'm not saying that they shouldn't. I'm saying that it's unrealistic to expect.

 

Speaking personally, I don't get the "sore loser" remark either - as I said earlier in the election thread, my feelings on the topic are pretty much entirely ambivalent apart from a worry about scientific co-operation and how vulnerable people might be affected, but that's the case worldwide as well as the UK.

But it is what the remainers have expected Brexiteers to do.

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If there weren’t so many interfering remainers over the last 3 or so years we’d have long had trade deals etc negotiated. Pleased they finally understand they are the minority. Most of the world and the worlds wealth isn’t in the EU, I don’t understand why anyone would be concerned. 
 

Another note; a democracy works only when the minority losing side concedes their loss. It really doesn’t matter if you think Brexit is good or not, it matters only that democracy is protected. 

Edited by SheppyFox
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37 minutes ago, SheppyFox said:

If there weren’t so many interfering remainers over the last 3 or so years we’d have long had trade deals etc negotiated. Pleased they finally understand they are the minority.

 

Are remainers in the minority?

 

Polls still continue to show a small lead for remain. If you think the election showed that there was no support for remain, then you don't understand how FPTP works.

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36 minutes ago, SheppyFox said:

If there weren’t so many interfering remainers over the last 3 or so years we’d have long had trade deals etc negotiated. Pleased they finally understand they are the minority. Most of the world and the worlds wealth isn’t in the EU, I don’t understand why anyone would be concerned. 
 

Another note; a democracy works only when the minority losing side concedes their loss. It really doesn’t matter if you think Brexit is good or not, it matters only that democracy is protected. 

 

Just now, Charl91 said:

 

Are remainers in the minority?

 

Polls still continue to show a small lead for remain. If you think the election showed that there was no support for remain, then you don't understand how FPTP works.

A majority voted for 2nd ref / revoke parties.

 

Although I imagine some remainers voted for the Conservatives and leavers for Labour, and it's immaterial now anyway. 

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7 minutes ago, bovril said:

 

A majority voted for 2nd ref / revoke parties.

 

Although I imagine some remainers voted for the Conservatives and leavers for Labour, and it's immaterial now anyway. 

 

Yep. 53%-47% vote for 2nd referendum/revoke parties - and in Scotland a 54%-46% vote for parties opposed to Scottish independence. The joys of FPTP.....

 

.....and, yep, it's immaterial now. Just a matter of discovering what Brexit really means in practice (with the Scottish & N. Irish situations depending greatly on what Brexit does mean).

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3 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Why has FPTP only just become an issue since Friday morning? Obviously there's a few that has mentioned it before but the majority haven't until now, just as the Cons gain a massive majority. Or have I just answered my own question.

Plenty on here have raised it in the past. It’s not a new complaint, obviously it will always be louder just after an election.

I have some sympathy with it but alternatives hardly ever deliver a majority government. We have just seen how ineffective a minority government can be. I’d rather not sign up to an eternity of that thanks.

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53 minutes ago, SheppyFox said:

If there weren’t so many interfering remainers over the last 3 or so years we’d have long had trade deals etc negotiated. Pleased they finally understand they are the minority. Most of the world and the worlds wealth isn’t in the EU, I don’t understand why anyone would be concerned. 
 

Another note; a democracy works only when the minority losing side concedes their loss. It really doesn’t matter if you think Brexit is good or not, it matters only that democracy is protected. 

What a bonehead comment.

 

450+ of MPs couldn't agree on a withdrawal bill as democracy had instructed them to commit economic suicide. A similar ethical conundrum that doctors would have when a Jehovah's Witness refuses a blood transfusion. Ultimately the Dr goes with it, but not without reasoned protest and great reluctance.

 

The only realistic Brexit is a BRINO which honours the democratic result but avoids a leap into the unknown. Obvs BRINO is worse than actually being in the EU however - hence the parliamentary stalemate.

 

I accept however the argument for remain is lost. But I can hope, and even campaign,  for  Boris resuming a centre right, socially liberal and pro European (but gleefully mocking of the EU) stance that he used to adopt

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Why has FPTP only just become an issue since Friday morning? Obviously there's a few that has mentioned it before but the majority haven't until now, just as the Cons gain a massive majority. Or have I just answered my own question.

 

My conscience is clear on this point.

 

The 1997 Labour manifesto promised a referendum on electoral reform - a promise that Blair reneged on after winning a landslide. Before the 2001 election, as a Labour member I went to lobby my local Labour MP about it.

He rejected the idea & said that FPTP led to strong govt. At the 2001 election, I cast a protest vote against him and for the Lib Dems....much good that it did me or anyone else. 

 

I'm sure others will confirm that I've been banging on about PR and STV in this forum for years. :D

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4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Plenty on here have raised it in the past. It’s not a new complaint, obviously it will always be louder just after an election.

I have some sympathy with it but alternatives hardly ever deliver a majority government. We have just seen how ineffective a minority government can be. I’d rather not sign up to an eternity of that thanks.

Maybe it's just been noticed more since the election. I've genuinely only ever seen a handful of people raise it, but now every man and his dog seems to be wanting to change the goalposts. I wasn't old enough to vote in the 2011 refendum regarding it.

 

It can be a good thing but can also be a bad thing I guess if it was changed. Other countries have parties that work well together in parliament, but some have to have multiple elections to even get things pushed through due to stalemates.

 

3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

My conscience is clear on this point.

 

The 1997 Labour manifesto promised a referendum on electoral reform - a promise that Blair reneged on after winning a landslide. Before the 2001 election, as a Labour member I went to lobby my local Labour MP about it.

He rejected the idea & said that FPTP led to strong govt. At the 2001 election, I cast a protest vote against him and for the Lib Dems....much good that it did me or anyone else. 

 

I'm sure others will confirm that I've been banging on about PR and STV in this forum for years. :D

I remember you posting about it before, and it would definitely give all parties a fairer repesentation, but as I've said above it could lead to stalemates. I genuinely don't know if it would be a benefit to us, I have no idea if I'm totally honest. It would get rid of tactical voting and allow people to vote for whoever they want though, so that's a definite bonus.

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20 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

My conscience is clear on this point.

 

The 1997 Labour manifesto promised a referendum on electoral reform - a promise that Blair reneged on after winning a landslide. Before the 2001 election, as a Labour member I went to lobby my local Labour MP about it.

He rejected the idea & said that FPTP led to strong govt. At the 2001 election, I cast a protest vote against him and for the Lib Dems....much good that it did me or anyone else. 

 

I'm sure others will confirm that I've been banging on about PR and STV in this forum for years. :D

Me too Alf

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3 minutes ago, String fellow said:

If Scotland were to become independent, what would happen to the UK-wide parties such as the Conservatives, who still have constituencies up there. Presumably they'd just disappear and the SNP would then head up a left-wing one-party state. Perish the thought!

I would imagine they’d still have political parties you could even see the SNP shrink  like the Brexit party.

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