Racism

[OadbyBlue]

5 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

I think you better double check what you can guarantee and not make too many assumptions.

If you say because of my age racism can “go over my head” I can say cos of your race racism can also go over yours

[Rusko187]

It's a problem for all of humanity, and not exclusive to political parties or sporting events. The trouble you have is that people "freely" express their opinions at football after a few pints and you have, on occasions, mindless idiots who truly speak their mind. They will argue that it's freedom of speech, but your thoughts and opinions are not acceptable if it brings pain, suffering, or hurt to those it's against.

I've heard it at the KP previously, challenged the person on it and nearly took a hiding for my efforts. Was shocked that really it was only me who spoke up at the time, thought it was audible to a lot of people.

 

For me, 2 of the biggest problems we face is 1, education on racism and 2, nurturing sides (like family backgrounds). I don't think enough is done to educate kids of today how wrong racism is, but then again it's been a long time since I was at school. The nurturing side, my view on this is that some households will have people in their who have come from an era when (how can I say it) wasn't such a big deal... by that I mean it didn't have the public condemnation it has now, as an example of this the BBC used to air programs with extremely racist suggestions and undertones, they don't anymore mind.

 

 

[Glorious Leicester Fan]

3 hours ago, srex9 said:

These facts are very subjective. You have to look at where the sources came from. The tiny minority of actual racists came out their shell yes, but the media very much used Brexit as a scapegoat for these issues that definately already existed.

 

The media is rife with propaganda and wants to sell stories and it works at both ends of the political spectrum. 

I think you are conflating facts with opinions/normative statements.
 

Whilst I acknowledge the limitations of research methods, all recent research (both quantitative/qualitative) show an increase in racism in the UK. 

 

This should not be a surprise. Brexit/Trump unleashed a nationalistic rage that was simmering for years. And before I get inundated with replies, I am

not suggesting that 17 million leavers are racist, although I would argue racists are more likely to vote for Brexit. 
 

Football does not exist in a vacuum, and reflects wider society. The situation is not helped by Inherent racist government policies (Windrush) and having a PM who holds racist opinions. 
 

 

  
 

 

[SheppyFox]

10 Points off Tottenham, 30m fine and the players have the right to leave the field. Happens again? 15 points, 45m and so on.  

[Izzy]

49 minutes ago, twister said:

No evidence found for the ruidger racism incident as of yet

 

could he have misheard it as booing?

Quite possibly. Plenty of Spurs fans who were sat in that area have been ringing radio phone in's saying they heard no monkey chants (and if they had they'd have lynched the person responsible). Meanwhile, Spurs' name gets dragged through the mud on social media (and on this forum) when there's still no proof. I'm no Spurs lover but I'd feel a bit pissed if everyone's accusing them of being racist when nothing happened.

 

18 minutes ago, SheppyFox said:

10 Points off Tottenham, 30m fine and the players have the right to leave the field. Happens again? 15 points, 45m and so on.  

Sorry, disagree.

I don't think a club should be held responsible for the actions of one or two mindless idiots. Like that Man City fan a few weeks back against Man Utd - root him out, publicly humiliate him, ban him for life and let his employers sack him. That's the right punishment, not docking the club points.

[Raj]

Things are just highlighted more nowadays and especially in football where the "customer base" is different to years ago.

When I started going in the late 80's it was raw and we endured racism from our own fans let alone away fans and we just sort of took it on the chin.

Nowadays people rightly do do not accept it and issues are highlighted due to social media and the majority of folk standing up and facing the aggressors.

I'd like to think the majority of fans would challenge folk for racist chanting etc.

Happy Christmas to you all.

X

[DennisNedry]

14 hours ago, OadbyBlue said:

This country is built on racism

I hate this saying. It's a bit like 'immigrants take our jobs'.

 

Both have a bit of truth in them but are intentionally provocative statements and massive oversimplifications.

 

 

[hejammy]

2 minutes ago, DennisNedry said:

I hate this saying. It's a bit like 'immigrants take our jobs'.

 

Both have a bit of truth in them but are intentionally provocative statements and massive oversimplifications.

 

 

I'm sorry but neither statement has any truth. "Immigrants take our jobs" is the same as "the dog ate my homework" and the country was not built on racism, it's simply ignorance and/or lack of education that fuels racism.

[OadbyBlue]

3 minutes ago, DennisNedry said:

I hate this saying. It's a bit like 'immigrants take our jobs'.

 

Both have a bit of truth in them but are intentionally provocative statements and massive oversimplifications.

 

 

The country is built on racism, dosen’t mean everyone in the country is racist. 

[ithuriel]

3 minutes ago, Raj said:

Things are just highlighted more nowadays and especially in football where the "customer base" is different to years ago.

When I started going in the late 80's it was raw and we endured racism from our own fans let alone away fans and we just sort of took it on the chin.

Nowadays people rightly do do not accept it and issues are highlighted due to social media and the majority of folk standing up and facing the aggressors.

I'd like to think the majority of fans would challenge folk for racist chanting etc.

Happy Christmas to you all.

X

Some of my nephews and nieces are Asian looking, my aunt Ellen was from the Seychelles, back in the 80s some skinheads picked on my cousin Timmy when we lived on Olphin street just off Belgrave road, my cousins living over the road.

Anyway the idiots came back and my Uncle and my dad gave them a right pasting.

Doubt they ever came back down Belgrave again.

[OadbyBlue]

2 minutes ago, hejammy said:

I'm sorry but neither statement has any truth. "Immigrants take our jobs" is the same as "the dog ate my homework" and the country was not built on racism, it's simply ignorance and/or lack of education that fuels racism.

How is it not true? So the slave trade and British empire, which allowed Britain to become one of the leading economic powers, aren’t racist?

[hejammy]

1 minute ago, OadbyBlue said:

How is it not true? So the slave trade and British empire, which allowed Britain to become one of the leading economic powers, aren’t racist?

But Britain did exist before then? You cannot simply say that the foundation of GB was as a result of this single period of time. 

[OadbyBlue]

10 minutes ago, hejammy said:

But Britain did exist before then? You cannot simply say that the foundation of GB was as a result of this single period of time. 

America existed before slavery but slavery was still the foundation of the American economy especially in the south. The amount of wealth the U.K. has wouldn’t be anywhere near what it is without these things 

[shailen]

4 hours ago, David Hankey said:

What tosh!! Forget austerity and so-called poverty that has absolutely nothing at all to do with this cancer. People chant or make unsavoury noises because they are ignorant and ill-educated. With a stadium full of cameras, safety personnel and attendants I fail to see why they can't identify and drag these bastards out.

Don't get me wrong. People don't just become racist due to bad times. The issue within is clearly suppressed and finds it way out when society goes through bad times. But like another poster said, this is a society problem not a football one.

 

Football fans seem to feel privileged in that they can hurl abuse at the players and referees like it's nothing. I get booing and banter but personal attacks whether it's about race, sexual orientation...etc, needs to be severely punished. Its probably also why no player wants to come out as gay as they'll no doubt be targeted. 

[Foxxed]

7 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

I’m sorry if this sounds condescending, but you are 20. You cannot say you’ve seen a massive rise in racism, basically you’re beginning to grow up and see the world around you. As a kid you simply don’t see things, they go over your head. You’ve now hit 20 and your eyes are open and the world isn’t a perfect place.

I cannot comment on England it’s been 15 years now since I packed up and left for warmer shores.

What I can tell you is that there isn’t a place on earth that I have traveled to that isn’t affected by racism. 

The biggest problem we have now is social media where people all over the planet can share any view they have.

Within this we certainly have large portions of racist people. 

What we also have though is the outrage police, sharing posts, peoples names, photos etc and telling the world they are racist, sexist, etc without ever looking deeply and in the context a person has spoken. 

There are many things that were said when I was a kid, that were normal for the time, but would now be considered racist. People have rightly changed, people are way more aware than they were before. I simply can not believe that thins are getting worse than the days when I grew up.

The other big thing changing is people now know these things are wrong and are reporting them and also the police are taking them seriously, which never happened previously. Hence the statistics show hate crime is rising.

 

More police time and money goes to fighting far right groups, I had friends told to “go home” because “we voted you out” and the governments reports show an increase in racism. He is only 20 but he is not wrong.

[yorkie1999]

34 minutes ago, OadbyBlue said:

America existed before slavery but slavery was still the foundation of the American economy especially in the south. The amount of wealth the U.K. has wouldn’t be anywhere near what it is without these things 

I’m not trying to justify anything but the slave trade was not caused by racism, racism came about as a consequence of it. White Europeans transported slaves across the Atlantic to make money and African sellers sold them enslaved tribesmen. There was a lot of black Africans who became very rich from selling their own countrymen.

 

https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/Media_248866_smxx.pdf

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-slave-traders-were-african-11568991595

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

Quite possibly. Plenty of Spurs fans who were sat in that area have been ringing radio phone in's saying they heard no monkey chants (and if they had they'd have lynched the person responsible). Meanwhile, Spurs' name gets dragged through the mud on social media (and on this forum) when there's still no proof. I'm no Spurs lover but I'd feel a bit pissed if everyone's accusing them of being racist when nothing happened.

 

 

I find it kind of weird that whilst Chelsea have a few black players, only one heard anything. Fairly certain that it's easy to mishear stuff in a crowded stadium. For instance, the "whooooooooo?" chant when an opposition player is announced, sounds very like a monkey noise.

 

I also question why it is that you can't abuse someone by race, if they've put on weight, look different in some way, or used to play for us... these are acceptable reasons to abuse them.

 

[KrefelderFox666]

2 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

I find it kind of weird that whilst Chelsea have a few black players, only one heard anything. Fairly certain that it's easy to mishear stuff in a crowded stadium. For instance, the "whooooooooo?" chant when an opposition player is announced, sounds very like a monkey noise.

 

I also question why it is that you can't abuse someone by race, if they've put on weight, look different in some way, or used to play for us... these are acceptable reasons to abuse them.

 

I am not going to say Rudiger made stuff up, to lose his sh1t he must be pretty certain. However, agree with your point. This whole racism thing is being blown way out of proportion. It's a minority of people who are getting all the attention by being idiots, whole clubs, countries etc are being blamed. Football stadiums have all the technology to pinpoint individuals so there is no excuse to not find individuals. They must be punished, not whole clubs/countries. People are going over the top.

 

And as you correctly say, chanting racist or homophobic things are unacceptable but there are many other abusive chants that are deemed acceptable. It can't be different rules for different types of abuse. Racism just seems to be the current "hot topic".

[OadbyBlue]

24 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

I’m not trying to justify anything but the slave trade was not caused by racism, racism came about as a consequence of it. White Europeans transported slaves across the Atlantic to make money and African sellers sold them enslaved tribesmen. There was a lot of black Africans who became very rich from selling their own countrymen.

 

https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/Media_248866_smxx.pdf

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-slave-traders-were-african-11568991595

Yeah I’m aware of that, but there was a belief of white supremacy at the time which was used to justify slavery, and to argue against abolition. Racism and divisive attitudes being promoted so certain people can profit, nothing new here, Donald used this tactic expertly. Most of the black people who profited off slavery were bought up as slaves though, so knew nothing other than slavery.

[srex9]

1 hour ago, OadbyBlue said:

The country is built on racism, dosen’t mean everyone in the country is racist. 

*facepalm* At least engage with people that offer different opinions rather than just repeating yourself and not even trying to look at the broader picture. 

[srex9]

3 hours ago, Glorious Leicester Fan said:

I think you are conflating facts with opinions/normative statements.
 

Whilst I acknowledge the limitations of research methods, all recent research (both quantitative/qualitative) show an increase in racism in the UK. 

 

This should not be a surprise. Brexit/Trump unleashed a nationalistic rage that was simmering for years. And before I get inundated with replies, I am

not suggesting that 17 million leavers are racist, although I would argue racists are more likely to vote for Brexit. 
 

Football does not exist in a vacuum, and reflects wider society. The situation is not helped by Inherent racist government policies (Windrush) and having a PM who holds racist opinions. 
 

 

  
 

 

Good response. I don't pretend to be an expert on these subjects but my academic background very much lies in propaganda, media and public interpretation. Unfortunately any data like that is used as a justification one way or the other and its very rarely done in a completely unbiased(couldn't think of a better word) way. That's not to say the data is wrong, but it was inevitable that the awareness surrounding racism was going to increase after the vote because Brexit was so often stereotyped as a device of the far right. And I say stereotyped because it will only be the minority of idiots that voted for reasons of race. Other reasons just seem irrelevant in the eyes of left wing media because they aren't controversial enough.

 

To be honest I can't stand the whole thing. Extreme right and extreme left ideals are as bad and dangerous as each other. I cant speak in terms of what the PM has said so id need to look into that but in terms of sport I honestly feel the individuals involved just need permanent bans from stadiums and games and the authorities involved need to be ruthless with it. 

[OadbyBlue]

18 minutes ago, srex9 said:

*facepalm* At least engage with people that offer different opinions rather than just repeating yourself and not even trying to look at the broader picture. 

I’ve not seen anyone offer much of a broader picture to engage with

[srex9]

24 minutes ago, OadbyBlue said:

I’ve not seen anyone offer much of a broader picture to engage with

Well when you originally said the country was built on racism I responded with my own historical interpretation but got nothing back. Not that you have to reply as I'm sure everyone is fed up of this thread by now 😂

[OadbyBlue]

2 minutes ago, srex9 said:

Good response. I don't pretend to be an expert on these subjects but my academic background very much lies in propaganda, media and public interpretation. Unfortunately any data like that is used as a justification one way or the other and its very rarely done in a completely unbiased(couldn't think of a better word) way. That's not to say the data is wrong, but it was inevitable that the awareness surrounding racism was going to increase after the vote because Brexit was so often stereotyped as a device of the far right. And I say stereotyped because it will only be the minority of idiots that voted for reasons of race. Other reasons just seem irrelevant in the eyes of left wing media because they aren't controversial enough.

 

To be honest I can't stand the whole thing. Extreme right and extreme left ideals are as bad and dangerous as each other. I cant speak in terms of what the PM has said so id need to look into that but in terms of sport I honestly feel the individuals involved just need permanent bans from stadiums and games and the authorities involved need to be ruthless with it. 

Bans are all well and good but I think their fellow fans turning against them is more likely to make them think, it’s all of our responsibility who go to games to make sure these people don’t feel comfortable abusing players or fans.

[OadbyBlue]

14 hours ago, srex9 said:

A little context is important. By your logic, just about every nation is built on racism. You do realise the term didn't really exist back then and if you were around in that era you would have committed all sorts of unspeakable acts that you would have felt were right, and godly. 

 

The British Empire is largely celebrated because it shaped the modern world we live in today. History is history. We learn from it. 

The British empire should not be celebrated as it is responsible for enslavement and genocide In the homelands of many people who live in this country, from Irish to Kenyans to Indians to Aboriginals and so on.