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[The Horse's Mouth]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

There is due process.

He received no disciplinary action, until all this kicked off and if you want to go one further this man has a track record of doing the exact same thing in other incidences and each time has gotten away with it and continues to still "serve and protect". 

[Webbo]

Just now, The Horse's Mouth said:

He received no disciplinary action, until all this kicked off and if you want to go one further this man has a track record of doing the exact same thing in other incidences and each time has gotten away with it and continues to still "serve and protect". 

I'm not denying bad things happen and sometimes cops cover for cops but it's not national policy.

 

We're actually getting off track, my initial point was comparing the US's crackdown on the rioters with crackdowns on rioters in Europe and the difference in the outrage on here.

 

Anyway, I'm going to have to wind this up now or the thread will be closed or I'll get a ban or both.

[Finnaldo]

7 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I thought the policeman had been charged?

I think the charge is 3rd degree murder, that’s more or less manslaughter. US policemen that came out to condemn him said they’re NEVER taught to kneel on the neck as, as we’ve seen, it drastically increases chances of death, even keeping someone prone on their front should apparently be as brief as possible. 
 

With all that in mind, he was acting out of conduct despite pleas from Floyd to get off his neck. If any other citizen was caught on video kneeling on a restrained man’s neck for a prolonged period that ultimately led to their death, I think they’d be up for more than a glorified manslaughter charge. 
 

Police seem to target black suspects more violently, and when caught out for it receive them lightest possible charge, if any. That’s the issue.

[Carl the Llama]

14 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I actually meant do the French and Spanish not kill more ethnic minorities by proportion. I know there's a lot of racism in America.

I can't find the demographic breakdowns for either (maybe you know where I could find them?), but according to the per 10million people stats on this chart France's police force is about 7 and a half times less likely to kill anyone at all which would support the theory that it's less of an issue for them.

 

Also explains why we hear about it less.

Edited 2 June 2020 by Carl the Llama

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Finnaldo said:

I think the charge is 3rd degree murder, that’s more or less manslaughter. US policemen that came out to condemn him said they’re NEVER taught to kneel on the neck as, as we’ve seen, it drastically increases chances of death, even keeping someone prone on their front should apparently be as brief as possible. 
 

With all that in mind, he was acting out of conduct despite pleas from Floyd to get off his neck. If any other citizen was caught on video kneeling on a restrained man’s neck for a prolonged period that ultimately led to their death, I think they’d be up for more than a glorified manslaughter charge. 
 

Police seem to target black suspects more violently, and when caught out for it receive them lightest possible charge, if any. That’s the issue.

When it comes to murder, you have to prove intent, i.e he meant to kill him. I suspect that'd hard to prove.

Anyway, must stop.

[Finnaldo]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

When it comes to murder, you have to prove intent, i.e he meant to kill him. I suspect that'd hard to prove.

Anyway, must stop.

That’s why I mentioned he was apparently acting out of conduct. As I said, it’s said NOT to leave them prone in case of asphyxiation, and to under NO circumstance to kneel on their neck as those chances then balloon. Unless these policemen are for whatever reason lying about their own training, then he was ultimately doing something that you’re told can massively increase chances of fatality and to avoid. As the suspect was already handcuffed, I see no reason why that amount of force was warranted. 
 

With that in mind, there’s an argument for intent. And that’s a bloke whose pieced it from various bits on social media and news. 

[The Horse's Mouth]

7 minutes ago, Webbo said:

When it comes to murder, you have to prove intent, i.e he meant to kill him. I suspect that'd hard to prove.

Anyway, must stop.

the man sat on his neck for 8 minutes, while the victim was perfectly complaint over a ****ing dodgy 20 pound note.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Finnaldo said:

That’s why I mentioned he was apparently acting out of conduct. As I said, it’s said NOT to leave them prone in case of asphyxiation, and to under NO circumstance to kneel on their neck as those chances then balloon. Unless these policemen are for whatever reason lying about their own training, then he was ultimately doing something that you’re told can massively increase chances of fatality and to avoid. As the suspect was already handcuffed, I see no reason why that amount of force was warranted. 
 

With that in mind, there’s an argument for intent. And that’s a bloke whose pieced it from various bits on social media and news. 

I'm not defending the policeman, let the judge/lawyers/jury decide.

[Mike Oxlong]

9 minutes ago, Webbo said:

When it comes to murder, you have to prove intent, i.e he meant to kill him. I suspect that'd hard to prove.

Anyway, must stop.

Intent to kill or intent to cause gbh is the mens rea for murder 

[Finnaldo]

Just now, Webbo said:

I'm not defending the policeman, let the judge/lawyers/jury decide.

That’s the whole issue isn’t it. It’s the justice system picking what sentences their enforcers receive. Funnily enough, despite flagrant on-camera abuses, they’re weak charges. That’s what the argument is about, those who brutalise the marginalised in society picking their own fate. 

[Webbo]

Just now, Finnaldo said:

That’s the whole issue isn’t it. It’s the justice system picking what sentences their enforcers receive. Funnily enough, despite flagrant on-camera abuses, they’re weak charges. That’s what the argument is about, those who brutalise the marginalised in society picking their own fate. 

This'll be my 4th last word on the subject. The judiciary in america is independent of govt.Prosecutors will bring charges that they can win. It'll be months until a trial anyway, who says  it'll remain at 3rd degree murder?

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, Finnaldo said:

Off the top of my head, black folks made up 31% of people shot by police in the US, and they only make up 13% of the population.

Not wanting to butt in but any ideas what percentage of the impoverished of USA are black? As the poor and vulnerable are obviously more likely to be involved in crime.

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, Strokes said:

Not wanting to butt in but any ideas what percentage of the impoverished of USA are black? As the poor and vulnerable are obviously more likely to be involved in crime.

I would say it's pretty high and you'd bet that the socio-economic circumstances are a factor...but that being said, I would posit that there is often still a pretty big difference in the way that cops in various parts of the US treat poor and vulnerable black people and poor and vulnerable white people in exactly the same circumstances.

[Innovindil]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52896427

 

A convicted paedophile who was snared by a vigilante group is to have his case examined at the UK Supreme Court.

 

Judges at the UK's highest court will consider whether prosecutions based on the covert operations of "paedophile hunters" breach the right to privacy.

 

-----------

 

Interesting one out of the supreme Court today. Hopefully they'll side with the hunters. Might not be a perfect solution, but with this case they've saved a kid from abuse from a twat that's already served time for it once. I'd much rather have these guys locked up before they can abuse kids and if the hunters are willing to give up their time to do it, more power to em. 

 

 

 

[Strokes]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I would say it's pretty high and you'd bet that the socio-economic circumstances are a factor...but that being said, I would posit that there is often still a pretty big difference in the way that cops in various parts of the US treat poor and vulnerable black people and poor and vulnerable white people in exactly the same circumstances.

Yeah I’m not trying to excuse it completely but just try and understand what the real number is like.

There no doubt America has huge issues with racism but drawing opinions from one set of raw statistics can be misleading.

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52896427

 

A convicted paedophile who was snared by a vigilante group is to have his case examined at the UK Supreme Court.

 

Judges at the UK's highest court will consider whether prosecutions based on the covert operations of "paedophile hunters" breach the right to privacy.

 

-----------

 

Interesting one out of the supreme Court today. Hopefully they'll side with the hunters. Might not be a perfect solution, but with this case they've saved a kid from abuse from a twat that's already served time for it once. I'd much rather have these guys locked up before they can abuse kids and if the hunters are willing to give up their time to do it, more power to em. 

 

 

 

To be honest, although I agree. I don’t want nonces escaping justice on a technicality. I’d also like to see these hunters regulated or accountable in some way. If they get it wrong, it can have some severe consequences. I’m not convinced all of them are set up with the best of intentions either.

[StanSP]

29 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52896427

 

A convicted paedophile who was snared by a vigilante group is to have his case examined at the UK Supreme Court.

 

Judges at the UK's highest court will consider whether prosecutions based on the covert operations of "paedophile hunters" breach the right to privacy.

 

-----------

 

Interesting one out of the supreme Court today. Hopefully they'll side with the hunters. Might not be a perfect solution, but with this case they've saved a kid from abuse from a twat that's already served time for it once. I'd much rather have these guys locked up before they can abuse kids and if the hunters are willing to give up their time to do it, more power to em. 

 

 

 

I agree. I think what the hunters do is good in the way they try to eradicate these pedos doing what they do and walking our streets. But I've seen some police forces say it can harm their investigations or even cases they already have planning to go to court. It's not to say they don't want them caught either but there's a lot of police work that goes on behind the scenes. Sometimes these hunters and/or public think that when they see no action being taken, they think nothing is going on, which really probably isn't the case. 

 

 

[StanSP]

Also, 

 

[Innovindil]

28 minutes ago, Strokes said:

To be honest, although I agree. I don’t want nonces escaping justice on a technicality. I’d also like to see these hunters regulated or accountable in some way. If they get it wrong, it can have some severe consequences. I’m not convinced all of them are set up with the best of intentions either.

100%. Like I said, it's not perfect by any means. Having them work with the police with proper training would be preferable. 

[StanSP]

 

 

[Deeg67]

https://twitter.com/FuchsOfficial/status/1268114329943126016?s=20

[Danno]

[StanSP]

20 hours ago, StanSP said:

 

20 minutes ago, DanNDH88 said:

 

[Captain...]

20 hours ago, Webbo said:

The French authorities were beating up protestors on a weekly basis for around a year. The Spanish police were beating old ladies in Catalonia for turning up to vote. Why is it only America that's criticised? 

This is nationwide protest/rioting in the "most powerful country in the world". There are countless huge demonstrations that some pass peacefully and some are being handled appallingly by the authorities and result in rioting. Curfews are being applied, shops are being looted and flames are being fanned by an orange idiot with a Twitter account. All of this has been coming as systemic racism in the US fails to be addressed year after year.

 

There is a huge amount to criticise here and with very little other news it is getting more publicity than normal. 

 

Final point why does the perceived level of criticism of barely comparable situations bother you?

[Innovindil]

China has once again used the mass demonstrations to call out the US for its record on racism and discrimination.

 

"We hope the US government will take concrete measures to fulfil its obligations under the international convention on the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination to protect the legal rights of minorities," said Zhao Lijian, a spokesperson for China's Foreign Ministry.

 

China "always opposes racial discrimination", Zhao added.

 

 

The cheeky bastards really.