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filbertway

Coronavirus Thread

By filbertway, in General Chat

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Strokes

Strokes

Posted
Posted
41 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Despite the elephant jokes (which were on balance not great and quite frankly a disappointment ), the debate on here seems to be a little more constructive over the past few hours ....

Sorry for the bad elephant jokes, they were not on topic a a bit irrelephant.

  • Like 1
leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Same arguments again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

 

Enough now please, for all our sanity. :surrender:

Yep.

 

Is it a bit clearer about why I can be something of a downer/worried about the future now? :(

  • Like 1
leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, Line-X said:

Harry, the purpose of this vaccination programme is not to get to 'covid zero', but to tame this virus, to de-fang it, to remove its ability to cause serious disease, hospitalisation and death. Vaccines save millions of lives each year, but no vaccine offers 100% protection for all nor does it completely prevent transmission. It;s also highly likely that SARS-CoV-2 will become endemic. 

 

The objective is however, to reduce both infection and transmission in such a way that it can be managed - potentially leading to a complete lifting of restrictions and a restoration of the life that you once enjoyed...although in the short term, the continued adherence to masks and some degree of social distancing will be prudent.

 

Unfortunately, nature doesn't recognise that life, because nature is completely indifferent to mankind...which is why it is systematically "ripping the economy to shreds". For all that science and technology confers, we still remain at nature's whim...but I assure you, although it won't be eradicated, we will win this battle and prevail over this virus.

 

Not so long ago, previous generations here in the UK were decimated by smallpox and polio. You might wish to find out why that is no longer the case. 

 

 

Quoted for emphasis.

fox_up_north

fox_up_north

Posted
Posted

This is the same Brazil that, at one stage, was removing a football pitch sized chunk of the Amazon every day. 

 

Given that it's responsible for a good portion of our oxygen, Bolsonaro may suffocate us all first. He's an absolute loon. Makes Trump look like Churchill. 

  • Like 1
foxile5

foxile5

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Spudulike said:

All those opposed to lockdown need to take note. 

Plandemic! My freedoms! 'I've had enough of lockdown now!'.

 

Baffling that people think that this is anything other than a last resort for a desperate situation. We all dislike it, we all want to be own the boozer with 100s of people laughing and singing but we don't want 4,000 dead daily so we do what's necessary. 

 

One thing this pandemic has highlighted is the amount of ignorant turds there are in society who put their own shallow needs over the body politic of the country. No doubt there are people who will look at 4,000 dead daily and offer some spurious reason as to why that could never possibly happen here etc etc, whilst also being blinkered to the long-term implications of that (and these implications apply to the UK health-care and society, also) but there's not a lot that can be done about them.

 

This nostalgic view of the British community pulling together and the VE day spirit and so on and so forth is absolute garbage. Half the society can't bring themselves to wear a mask to protect others, prioritising their own comfort over a literal disease. In the day and age where shopping can be delivered via the  click of a button then to be out at your local Sainsburys refusing to wear a mask isn't reflective of 'personal choice' or 'freedom' - it's a provocative act.

 

Hopefully the dire situation of Brazi and the impending catastrophe in India changes the attitude of some of these folk, but I very, very much doubt it.

  • Like 1
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Nod.E

Nod.E

Posted
  • Popular Post
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

Plandemic! My freedoms! 'I've had enough of lockdown now!'.

 

Baffling that people think that this is anything other than a last resort for a desperate situation. We all dislike it, we all want to be own the boozer with 100s of people laughing and singing but we don't want 4,000 dead daily so we do what's necessary. 

 

One thing this pandemic has highlighted is the amount of ignorant turds there are in society who put their own shallow needs over the body politic of the country. No doubt there are people who will look at 4,000 dead daily and offer some spurious reason as to why that could never possibly happen here etc etc, whilst also being blinkered to the long-term implications of that (and these implications apply to the UK health-care and society, also) but there's not a lot that can be done about them.

 

This nostalgic view of the British community pulling together and the VE day spirit and so on and so forth is absolute garbage. Half the society can't bring themselves to wear a mask to protect others, prioritising their own comfort over a literal disease. In the day and age where shopping can be delivered via the  click of a button then to be out at your local Sainsburys refusing to wear a mask isn't reflective of 'personal choice' or 'freedom' - it's a provocative act.

 

Hopefully the dire situation of Brazi and the impending catastrophe in India changes the attitude of some of these folk, but I very, very much doubt it.

You know what really disappoints me? The tendancy for people to read a big number and panic. 

 

4,000 would be a much bigger number here than it is in Brazil. By my calculations it equates to 1.89 deaths per 100k per day vs. the 2 per 100k we had at our peak of 1,360 deaths.

 

So they don't even have it as bad as we did (yet).

 

And that's with a scary variant.

And that's without lockdown.

 

Now that's not to say Brazil doesn't have a big problem. They do, because their health service is crumbling. However in terms purely of COVID deaths and applying it to the UK in the context of an argument of why lockdown is a no-brainer, it doesn't land.

 

Also, for the here and now, there is the not inconsiderable factor of having our vulnerable vaccinated. But yeah let's just stay locked down because the Brazilians are struggling.

Edited by Nod.E
  • Like 7
SpacedX

SpacedX

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:


Offer up the testing - people can test themselves and quickly find out if they can still visit things. Of course there’s a faulted problem there which is it’s required public to buy into self testing and not ignoring the results.  

My concern here is that although Lateral Flow Testing is highly efficient way of detecting cases of a high viral load, the currently-used versions of these tests are not of sufficient sensitivity or accuracy to rule out the possibility that a negative result may not be correct. Whilst a negative result reduces the chance that the person tested is infected, it does not eliminate it; therefore, that individual could still potentially infect others. Even those with negative results should still observe social distancing and respiratory hygiene precautions whilst around others and I'm worried that this gives free license to disregard that. 

 

18 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

Hopefully the dire situation of Brazi and the impending catastrophe in India changes the attitude of some of these folk, but I very, very much doubt it.

I'm afraid as one on here stated yesterday, you'll never change his opinions. This virus will be contained. The real long term war is waged against the growing viral tide of opinion over evidence and it is one that we are sadly losing. 

 

It won't, because many of the people you refer to don't understand the nature of contagion (in both senses) and the global issue we are confronted with. To some, I swear it's simply about a pint in the Counting House, prior to the next home game at the KP and the next foreign holiday. 

  • Like 3
foxile5

foxile5

Posted
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

 

 

Also, for the here and now, there is the not inconsiderable factor of having our vulnerable vaccinated. But yeah let's just stay locked down because the Brazilians are struggling.

You made some reasonable points, worth of discussion, about the conflation between two societies and size that I would have loved to addressed but I'm not going to bother.

 

The last, underlined line is just a snidey little remark that bears no resemblance to my argument. I couched it that lockdown is important 'when necessary' and placed no  value on an ongoing lockdown. Nor did I tie our lockdown with the case in Brazil. By doing that you expose your agenda and make this not about public reaction to a crisis but your desire to end lockdown regardless.

 

Edited by foxile5
  • Like 1
foxile5

foxile5

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Line-X said:

. 

 

I'm afraid as one on here stated yesterday, you'll never change his opinions. This virus will be contained. The real long term war is waged against the growing viral tide of opinion over evidence and it is one that we are sadly losing. 

 

It won't, because many of the people you refer to don't understand the nature of contagion (in both senses) and the global issue we are confronted with. To some, I swear it's simply about a pint in the Counting House, prior to the next home game at the KP and the next foreign holiday. 

Adam Ellis - Hypernormalisation. If you've not already, watch this - it goes some way to explaining the fertile grounds for selfish response that we're currently seeing prevalent in society.

 

To a lot of people they have become the profound center of their universe and nothing else can matter to them. The virus is impinging on my enjoyment of society so therefore I need that to stop - if I insist it isn't real or there's no imminent threat then I can continue to enjoy what I like to do.  We're in the century of the self and that tracks through from opinion to trumping facts into the attitude in the face of global strife. 

  • Like 2
Nod.E

Nod.E

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

You made some reasonable points, worth of discussion, about the conflation between two societies and size that I would have loved to addressed but I'm not going to bother.

 

The last, underlined line is just a snidey little remark that bears no resemblance on my argument. I couched it that lockdown is important 'when necessary' and placed no  value on an ongoing lockdown. Nor did I tie our lockdown with the case in Brazil. By doing that you expose your agenda and make this not about public reaction to a crisis but your desire to end lockdown regardless.

 

Well it's not 'regardless', is it? In my last post I acknowledge the crumbling health service of Brazil. We had the same issue here and lockdown was as much of a necessity for us then as it is for Brazil now.

 

I think most accept that. I've accepted as much previously in this thread. Yes there are some crazies that are anti-lockdown at all cost, but that's not me. 

 

Apologies, I didn't realise your original comment was addressed at what I'll call 'anti lockdowners'. I thought you were addressing what I'll call 'lockdown sceptics', which is the bucket I'd use to summarise my position.

 

The timing threw me off a bit in that the debate to be had at this point in the UK is the extent to which lockdown should prevail. Given the data and vaccination program, my thoughts on that are 'not very much'! 

 

Point remains, many will look at Brazil and allow their situation to impart cautiousness to ours. And to do that is to misunderstand the relative circumstances of the two countries, and would represent yet another example of a lack of rational thought applied to the ongoing situation. 

 

Considering the extent to which the Government are governed themselves by public opinion, as they are for all intents and purposes a 24/7 campaign team, this is an issue. If popular opinion dictates we ought to be more cautious than is necessary, that's what'll happen.

  • Like 3
Otis

Otis

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Spudulike said:

All those opposed to lockdown need to take note. 

Whilst Chile has a strict lockdown & their cases are 2 & half higher than ours with a population of less than a third.

 

Apples and oranges..

 

Innovindil

Innovindil

Posted
Posted
21 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Make like others and leave the other vaccines for the younger folks imo.

Professor Adam Finn, from the University of Bristol, says it is possible different vaccines could be offered to different age groups as more jabs come on stream.

 

Professor Innovindil in the house. :cool:

 

I jest, but it's a good idea if younger folks are dying over a specific one for no valid reason. 

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, fox_up_north said:

This is the same Brazil that, at one stage, was removing a football pitch sized chunk of the Amazon every day. 

 

Given that it's responsible for a good portion of our oxygen, Bolsonaro may suffocate us all first. He's an absolute loon. Makes Trump look like Churchill. 

The really crazy thing was that it was reasonably obvious who and what Senhor Bolsanaro was before he was elected.

 

I have sympathy for those who didn't vote for him in Brazil who are suffering, as well as those outside the border who will suffer on account of his policies. Those who did vote for him, out of ignorance or flat out self interested malice and are suffering now too...well, I struggle there.

 

 

1 hour ago, foxile5 said:

Adam Ellis - Hypernormalisation. If you've not already, watch this - it goes some way to explaining the fertile grounds for selfish response that we're currently seeing prevalent in society.

 

To a lot of people they have become the profound center of their universe and nothing else can matter to them. The virus is impinging on my enjoyment of society so therefore I need that to stop - if I insist it isn't real or there's no imminent threat then I can continue to enjoy what I like to do.  We're in the century of the self and that tracks through from opinion to trumping facts into the attitude in the face of global strife. 

I don't think that self interest is any more prevalent now than it has been throughout history.

 

The difference is that such self interest is now much more far reaching in terms of effect, and the stakes are so much higher as a result.

Guest Harrydc

Guest Harrydc

Posted
Posted

It's absolutely nothing to do with 'self interest'... 

 

30 million people have this oh so precious vaccine. The old and vulnerable are all vaccinated. They account for 98% of deaths within 28 days of a positive test for any reason. 

 

We should not be in a lockdown anymore. There's no reasonable excuse.

 

Its just 3 weeks. 

 

It's just until the summer. 

 

Sacrifice Christmas to save Easter. 

 

When the old and vulnerable are vaccinated. 

 

When the over 50s are vaccinated. 

 

When everyone is vaccinated. 

 

When the whole world is vaccinated. 

 

This is never ending. 

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Harrydc said:

It's absolutely nothing to do with 'self interest'... 

 

30 million people have this oh so precious vaccine. The old and vulnerable are all vaccinated. They account for 98% of deaths within 28 days of a positive test for any reason. 

 

We should not be in a lockdown anymore. There's no reasonable excuse.

 

Its just 3 weeks. 

 

It's just until the summer. 

 

Sacrifice Christmas to save Easter. 

 

When the old and vulnerable are vaccinated. 

 

When the over 50s are vaccinated. 

 

When everyone is vaccinated. 

 

When the whole world is vaccinated. 

 

This is never ending. 

I'm going to ask this as gently as I can.

 

What is it about, then?

Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot

Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Harrydc said:

It's absolutely nothing to do with 'self interest'... 

 

30 million people have this oh so precious vaccine. The old and vulnerable are all vaccinated. They account for 98% of deaths within 28 days of a positive test for any reason. 

 

We should not be in a lockdown anymore. There's no reasonable excuse.

 

Its just 3 weeks. 

 

It's just until the summer. 

 

Sacrifice Christmas to save Easter. 

 

When the old and vulnerable are vaccinated. 

 

When the over 50s are vaccinated. 

 

When everyone is vaccinated. 

 

When the whole world is vaccinated. 

 

This is never ending. 

I've had the sense for a long time there's only so much incompetence that can be accidental. Finally they get something right with the vaccine rollout but are entirely undoing it by pretending the vaccine hasn't made a blind bit of difference. 

  • Like 3
Zear0

Zear0

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, Harrydc said:

It's absolutely nothing to do with 'self interest'... 

 

30 million people have this oh so precious vaccine. The old and vulnerable are all vaccinated. They account for 98% of deaths within 28 days of a positive test for any reason. 

 

We should not be in a lockdown anymore. There's no reasonable excuse.

 

Its just 3 weeks. 

 

It's just until the summer. 

 

Sacrifice Christmas to save Easter. 

 

When the old and vulnerable are vaccinated. 

 

When the over 50s are vaccinated. 

 

When everyone is vaccinated. 

 

When the whole world is vaccinated. 

 

This is never ending. 

I think it's been acknowledged that the current cycle of lockdown, open, lockdown open is completely unsustainable and can be agreed universally here (one of the few things...) that nobody wants this.  Myself, and it's fair to say you, have suffered particularly in this last lockdown and we're all desperate to get on with our lives.  The approach being taken could be perceived as slow, but I for one would rather a right-first-time approach to re-opening the economy and society and keeping it open.  Come Monday we can go to the pubs, shops and restaurants (granted with caveats).  The slower opening should allow us to generate the data to see what impact each of these sectors has on the R-rate and hospitalisations to allow this to be managed better.

 

I don't agree that we're being kept in some perpetual state of lockdown due to some sinister government (whom I'm not a fan of).  We have the roadmap for when things open and I do feel confident it will remain so.  Last year it was widely believed that this winter was going to be grim, but I'm not sure anyone expected it to be this bad.  You want everything open, as do I, but if we do that it has the potential to risk us taking one step forward and two back.  If the government start to renege on the roadmap, then I will share you scepticism.  However I currently disagree with your suggestion we open up everything, as I believe your behaviour is classic Stanford Marshmallow.  It's frustrating, but we're in such a unique (sigh, unprecedented) situation that rushing things would be, in my opinion, utterly negligent.

 

So yes, I believe there is a reasonable excuse to the current restrictions.

  • Like 1
yorkie1999

yorkie1999

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

I think it's been acknowledged that the current cycle of lockdown, open, lockdown open is completely unsustainable and can be agreed universally here (one of the few things...) that nobody wants this.  Myself, and it's fair to say you, have suffered particularly in this last lockdown and we're all desperate to get on with our lives.  The approach being taken could be perceived as slow, but I for one would rather a right-first-time approach to re-opening the economy and society and keeping it open.  Come Monday we can go to the pubs, shops and restaurants (granted with caveats).  The slower opening should allow us to generate the data to see what impact each of these sectors has on the R-rate and hospitalisations to allow this to be managed better.

 

I don't agree that we're being kept in some perpetual state of lockdown due to some sinister government (whom I'm not a fan of).  We have the roadmap for when things open and I do feel confident it will remain so.  Last year it was widely believed that this winter was going to be grim, but I'm not sure anyone expected it to be this bad.  You want everything open, as do I, but if we do that it has the potential to risk us taking one step forward and two back.  If the government start to renege on the roadmap, then I will share you scepticism.  However I currently disagree with your suggestion we open up everything, as I believe your behaviour is classic Stanford Marshmallow.  It's frustrating, but we're in such a unique (sigh, unprecedented) situation that rushing things would be, in my opinion, utterly negligent.

 

So yes, I believe there is a reasonable excuse to the current restrictions.

If there was such a thing as right first time, we wouldn't need to understand  how to better manage the r rate or hospitalisations. I think this is one of the reasons why people are questioning the logic of the government and scientists. 

Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'm going to ask this as gently as I can.

 

What is it about, then?

A weak Government which is terrified of public opinion if it sees an increase in deaths again.  A huge contract for testing and IT to put in place this digital vaccination passport.  People in the home office and the police who would love to see us all carrying some form of ID we had to show when asked. People in the treasury who see the massive debt as a an excuse to make "austerity" look like a practise run.  All of the above?  Take your pick.

  • Like 3
Guest Harrydc

Guest Harrydc

Posted
Posted
37 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'm going to ask this as gently as I can.

 

What is it about, then?

I see absolutely no future. 

 

I do not want to bring any kids into this authoritarian totalitarian world we're approaching. It'd be cruel.

 

So that's a family out the window. 

 

It's about people in care homes who haven't seen their family in a year. 

 

It's about basic human liberties being snatched away. 

 

It's about the impending social credit system once these 'freedom passes' are out. 

 

But if you want to live in a world like this then good luck to you. 

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