US Presidential Election 2020

[urban.spaceman]

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Edited 7 January 2021 by urban.spaceman

[Voll Blau]

11 minutes ago, Line-X said:

You mean in the Sky interview that contrary to the misleading title of the tweet, she actually condemned his words and actions?

She condemned the violence and said Trump should condemn the violence that had taken place.

She was then pushed on his complicity and invited to explicity condemn his involvement, and all she could muster was that he'd done "very little to de-escalate the situation".

How hard is it to condemn him - not "violence", not the crowd at large, not "words of provocation" - him.

[hejammy]

Looking at all the slogans and chants those terrorists had yesterday, makes me think that anyone who remotely justifies their actions and does not see how Trump (who said "I love you all" to them) doesn't incite this sort of behaviour can be thrown into the racist category for sure! Those will be the same people that will ask all Muslims to condemn any "Islamic" terrorist attack but will not even acknowledge that this was a terrorist attack, instead pass it off as some people just "being a bit silly". Trump is the reason why these people have been empowered to do what they do and come out in the open with their views. If there are any "fans" like that on here then that saddens me so much. 

Edited 7 January 2021 by hejammy

[Mickyblueeyes]

16 minutes ago, Line-X said:

You mean in the Sky interview that contrary to the misleading title of the tweet, she actually condemned his words and actions?

I’ve watched the Sky interview four times now because twice it’s been raised that she condemned him. For me, in that interview, she didn’t. I’m sorry, it’s not very hard and she’s shown that by doing it very well in the BBC one after. She condemned the actions of the individuals but not Trump for his role.  Is Donald Trump inciting this, well yes - it’s quite simple. I can appreciate it was probably early morning and she didn’t have the press brief as yet but that doesn’t excuse it.

[LCFCCHRIS]

10 minutes ago, hejammy said:

Looking at all the slogans and chants those terrorists had yesterday, makes me think that anyone who remotely justifies their actions and does not see how Trump (who said "I love you all" to them) doesn't incite this sort of behaviour can be thrown into the racist category for sure! Those will be the same people that will ask all Muslims to condemn any "Islamic" terrorist attack but will not even acknowledge that this was a terrorist attack, instead pass it off as some people just "being a bit silly". Trump is the reason why these people have been empowered to do what they do and come out in the open with their views. If there are any "fans" like that on here then that saddens me so much. 

"the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

 

Good point, it is by definition, terrorism. Not sure how someone could say it's not going off that.

[Leicester_Loyal]

Just saw the video of someone being shot, they're literally trying to force their way through the glass window of a barricaded door with guns pointed at it, how thick can you get? These idiots are no better than the morons looting and smashing stuff up in the name of BLM a few months back.

[Dunge]

As much as I sympathise with those who want to scream and shout at the Orange man, the last four years should demonstrate that that approach doesn’t work. It forces people to huddle together and support him - and more importantly their own beliefs.

 

The question here is about deradicalisation. You have to speak with these people, listen and discuss, not berate. They have to find the answers themselves, or at least feel that they have, not have those answers shouted at them. And maybe they will also have concerns where common ground and compromise can be found. You have to help them own their opinions and their actions, and the consequences thereof. You have to separate the leaders from the followers. To use an unpopular phrase, you have to divide and conquer.

 

“Calling them out” will feel satisfying, no doubt. But it won’t do anything. It’s been happening for years on Twitter and elsewhere and it just throws fuel on the fire.

[hejammy]

1 minute ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Just saw the video of someone being shot, they're literally trying to force their way through the glass window of a barricaded door with guns pointed at it, how thick can you get? These idiots are no better than the morons looting and smashing stuff up in the name of BLM a few months back.

This is where the comparison really has to stop. The looting etc was very regretful, by no means justifying what they did, but they were "fighting" for the rights of Black people to be seen as equals and for them to be treated in the same way that every white person is treated. The Trump "supporters" yesterday were fighting because they thought Trump was right in saying that the election was rigged, they were "fighting" for Nazism/Fascism. One is fighting for a good thing (but doing it the wrong way) and the other is fighting for a disgusting, Abhorrent thing. CLEARLY both ways of protesting are wrong however they are NOT the same. 

[Dunge]

1 minute ago, Dunge said:

As much as I sympathise with those who want to scream and shout at the Orange man, the last four years should demonstrate that that approach doesn’t work. It forces people to huddle together and support him - and more importantly their own beliefs.

 

The question here is about deradicalisation. You have to speak with these people, listen and discuss, not berate. They have to find the answers themselves, or at least feel that they have, not have those answers shouted at them. And maybe they will also have concerns where common ground and compromise can be found. You have to help them own their opinions and their actions, and the consequences thereof. You have to separate the leaders from the followers. To use an unpopular phrase, you have to divide and conquer.

 

“Calling them out” will feel satisfying, no doubt. But it won’t do anything. It’s been happening for years on Twitter and elsewhere and it just throws fuel on the fire.

I should add for clarity that the mob yesterday clearly broke the law and should be prosecuted as such.

[Jon the Hat]

2 minutes ago, hejammy said:

This is where the comparison really has to stop. The looting etc was very regretful, by no means justifying what they did, but they were "fighting" for the rights of Black people to be seen as equals and for them to be treated in the same way that every white person is treated. The Trump "supporters" yesterday were fighting because they thought Trump was right in saying that the election was rigged, they were "fighting" for Nazism/Fascism. One is fighting for a good thing (but doing it the wrong way) and the other is fighting for a disgusting, Abhorrent thing. CLEARLY both ways of protesting are wrong however they are NOT the same. 

You are very wrong if you think every white person is treated in the same way.  This is divisive nonsense - surely you can see that?  Don't buy the CRT nonsense. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

1 minute ago, hejammy said:

This is where the comparison really has to stop. The looting etc was very regretful, by no means justifying what they did, but they were "fighting" for the rights of Black people to be seen as equals and for them to be treated in the same way that every white person is treated. The Trump "supporters" yesterday were fighting because they thought Trump was right in saying that the election was rigged, they were "fighting" for Nazism/Fascism. One is fighting for a good thing (but doing it the wrong way) and the other is fighting for a disgusting, Abhorrent thing. CLEARLY both ways of protesting are wrong however they are NOT the same. 

I'd argue that by saying the ones looting and smashing up shops didn't give a toss about fighting for the rights of black people, they were just out to get some free stuff or cause trouble. The majority of those on the BLM marches were fine, as most probably were yesterday, then the small percentage takes it too far as always.

 

Both sides are as bad as each other, they're all idiots and once again it's resulted in the loss of life.

[bovril]

Just now, Jon the Hat said:

That isn't quite fair I don't think - a lot of these people do feel they have been ignored by politicians for decades, their concerns, job losses etc ignored, and that Trump was their saviour despite his many flaws.  He has played them no doubt, but I think a lot of them genuinely believe Trump was robbed by a fraudulent vote.  Lots of guilt in both Trump and the right wing media for propogating that nonsense of course, but i think it is overly simplified to say their underlying cause doesn't make them desperate.  Yes they have been convinced some "other" is at fault, which is nonsense, but that again is exploitation.  Obviously some of the ringleaders know exactly what they are doing, but they are not unmaksed wandering through the Capitol imo, they know they would go to jail for it.

Many of these people are far from 'left behind'. They're Nazis. 

 

I think it is underestimated how much of a concerted effort there has been in recent years to undermine liberal democracies with large scale disinformation campaigns online and funding for extremist groups. 

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Dunge said:

As much as I sympathise with those who want to scream and shout at the Orange man, the last four years should demonstrate that that approach doesn’t work. It forces people to huddle together and support him - and more importantly their own beliefs.

 

The question here is about deradicalisation. You have to speak with these people, listen and discuss, not berate. They have to find the answers themselves, or at least feel that they have, not have those answers shouted at them. And maybe they will also have concerns where common ground and compromise can be found. You have to help them own their opinions and their actions, and the consequences thereof. You have to separate the leaders from the followers. To use an unpopular phrase, you have to divide and conquer.

 

“Calling them out” will feel satisfying, no doubt. But it won’t do anything. It’s been happening for years on Twitter and elsewhere and it just throws fuel on the fire.

I'm sorry Dunge, but the people you speak of likely had no part in yesterday's events anyway - those whom you speak of are the moderates for whom this was (hopefully) the last straw.

 

As such, those behind the events of yesterday and those who condone it - which is whom the topic is about - deserve to be called out IMO.

 

1 minute ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I'd argue that by saying the ones looting and smashing up shops didn't give a toss about fighting for the rights of black people, they were just out to get some free stuff or cause trouble. The majority of those on the BLM marches were fine, as most probably were yesterday, then the small percentage takes it too far as always.

 

Both sides are as bad as each other, they're all idiots and once again it's resulted in the loss of life.

So it really is "fine people on both sides", then?

[bovril]

Do people seriously still think guys with Nazi tattoos storming the capitol building are frustrated ex miners from Pennsylvania? 

[Voll Blau]

4 minutes ago, Dunge said:

As much as I sympathise with those who want to scream and shout at the Orange man, the last four years should demonstrate that that approach doesn’t work. It forces people to huddle together and support him - and more importantly their own beliefs.

 

The question here is about deradicalisation. You have to speak with these people, listen and discuss, not berate. They have to find the answers themselves, or at least feel that they have, not have those answers shouted at them. And maybe they will also have concerns where common ground and compromise can be found. You have to help them own their opinions and their actions, and the consequences thereof. You have to separate the leaders from the followers. To use an unpopular phrase, you have to divide and conquer.

 

“Calling them out” will feel satisfying, no doubt. But it won’t do anything. It’s been happening for years on Twitter and elsewhere and it just throws fuel on the fire.

Some of them had t-shirts with Nazi slogans and White Supremacist tattoos FFS. How do you compromise with people like that?

 

If you're talking about the tens of millions of people who voted for Trump then fine, I agree. America's in trouble if it struggles to genuinely help improve their lives so they fall prey to a madman peddling hatred and easy answers again.

 

But a mob attempting a coup like that was not an inevitable consequence of people feeling pissed off about their life. These are people who probably always had extreme views and were whipped up to believe that Trump - and only Trump - is telling the thruth and that no-one else is. His constant lies embolden them and yesterday is what happens when you allow people like that to feel they can act without fear or consequence.

[leicsmac]

And in response to a recent theme on this thread - exactly how much is being ignorant enough to be fooled and then being a catspaw a mitigating circumstance for doing nasty stuff?

[RoboFox]

 

7 minutes ago, hejammy said:

This is where the comparison really has to stop. 

This.

 

This isn't some idiotic opportunist looters smashing the window of a Chanel store in downtown Washington amidst a justified civil rights movement. This group was, by all accounts, comprised largely of radicalized white supremacists attempting a coup, who were acting on the sedition of the fvcking President.

 

I notice its all the right-wing big brains on here pushing the rhetoric almost as if they're trying to deflect, as they always do. The two are not comparable. Not even close.

[ozleicester]

3 hours ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

This whole situation in America over the course of this year just goes to show you, most mobs don't even know what's going on and are just their for the buzz / destruction / violence. These idiots are just angry and causing trouble, same goes for the BLM looting and destruction. It was incredibly embarrassing to see it happening here in the UK with a loose basis on something that happened in the US. This kind of destruction can't be defended, especially when the people involved aren't sure what the end goal is. 

completely wrong

[Carl the Llama]

10 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

That isn't quite fair I don't think - a lot of these people do feel they have been ignored by politicians for decades, their concerns, job losses etc ignored, and that Trump was their saviour despite his many flaws.  He has played them no doubt, but I think a lot of them genuinely believe Trump was robbed by a fraudulent vote.  Lots of guilt in both Trump and the right wing media for propogating that nonsense of course, but i think it is overly simplified to say their underlying cause doesn't make them desperate.  Yes they have been convinced some "other" is at fault, which is nonsense, but that again is exploitation.  Obviously some of the ringleaders know exactly what they are doing, but they are not unmaksed wandering through the Capitol imo, they know they would go to jail for it.

Of course they do and with those I sympathise.   But there's still a world of difference between staging a riot and attempting an actual coup.  America has a lot of hard work ahead if it wants to address the valid issues held amongst all of this and undo the brainwashing that's gone on in the past few decades and especially the last 4 years.  The point remains that BLM and this are very different actions taken as results of very different factors and with very different levels of validity.

Edited 7 January 2021 by Carl the Llama
And of course as has been pointed out a significant number of actual nazis led the charge

[hejammy]

4 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You are very wrong if you think every white person is treated in the same way.  This is divisive nonsense - surely you can see that?  Don't buy the CRT nonsense. 

Are you actually kidding me! THIS IS THE PROBLEM! WOE ME WOE ME!!!!

 

They are not saying every white person is treated the same! They are saying that GENERALLY black people are NOT treated the same as white people! Which if you don't believe is true then its a whole new discussion!

 

Are you the same type of person that gets a paper cut whilst someone else is run over by a truck and says..."what about my paper cut, it really hurts"...GEEEEZ

[Fightforever]

4 minutes ago, bovril said:

Many of these people are far from 'left behind'. They're Nazis. 

 

I think it is underestimated how much of a concerted effort there has been in recent years to undermine liberal democracies with large scale disinformation campaigns online and funding for extremist groups. 

You see this is where my little theory comes in. With how much information target advertising can collect on the population. It could be possible that they use the data points collected to expose people to political messages that would benefit multi-national corporations. Just a theory of mine though. 

[ozleicester]

facts are, people who excuse Trump and his Nazi followers are almost as bad as him. 

The man is a nutcase and his supporters are deranged, the GOP, and right wingers across the world enable this lunacy.

[Jon the Hat]

2 minutes ago, hejammy said:

Are you actually kidding me! THIS IS THE PROBLEM! WOE ME WOE ME!!!!

 

They are not saying every white person is treated the same! They are saying that GENERALLY black people are NOT treated the same as white people! Which if you don't believe is true then its a whole new discussion!

 

Are you the same type of person that gets a paper cut whilst someone else is run over by a truck and says..."what about my paper cut, it really hurts"...GEEEEZ

Calm down man.  He literally said they want to be treated the same as every white person.  Read it back.

[hejammy]

9 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I'd argue that by saying the ones looting and smashing up shops didn't give a toss about fighting for the rights of black people, they were just out to get some free stuff or cause trouble. The majority of those on the BLM marches were fine, as most probably were yesterday, then the small percentage takes it too far as always.

 

Both sides are as bad as each other, they're all idiots and once again it's resulted in the loss of life.

Both are idiots, but one is RACIST/FASCIST and the other isn't. So NO both sides are not as bad as the other.

[hejammy]

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

Calm down man.  He literally said they want to be treated the same as every white person.  Read it back.

No he didn't...his exact words were :

 

"You are very wrong if you think every white person is treated in the same way."