US Presidential Election 2020

[Leicester_Loyal]

Just now, hejammy said:

Both are idiots, but one is RACIST/FASCIST and the other isn't. So NO both sides are not as bad as the other.

There are racists and fascists on both sides. Not everyone who went on that march (I won't call it a protest) yesterday will be a racist, although there will be thousands that will be.

 

On here (and in the world tbh) all it ever seems to be is people trying to say one side is worse than the other.

 

Anyway this will be my last post on the matter, these politics topics only end up one way, with no-one ever changing their minds and pointless arguments happening for days.

 

The protestors that went into that building were idiots and got all they deserve.

[Jon the Hat]

3 minutes ago, hejammy said:

No he didn't...his exact words were :

 

"You are very wrong if you think every white person is treated in the same way."

"but they were "fighting" for the rights of Black people to be seen as equals and for them to be treated in the same way that every white person is treated"

[That_Dude]

23 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You get that from me pointing out that no one said "whatabout the BLM protests!!" 

 

Trump should be in jail imo, shocking behaviour on his part since he lost the legal arguments.  I have some sympathy for the fools who believe his shit and get themselves in trouble, but none for those bearing white supremacist logos etc.  I think the authorities responsible for protecting the Capitol building should be sacked for incompetence.  I wonder where the hell the paramilitary types guarding DC during the BLM protests went?

It was a thin veiled attempt at watering down and setting on the same foot a civil right movement fuelled by decades of proven injustice (and marred by acts of looting/rioting) with a downright insurrectional storming of the Capitol. The latter being incited by the President of the USA himself and his army of conspiracy nutcases, and based on nothing but accusations of fraud that have been laughed at every single court of justice.

 

I agree with the rest of your comment though.

[Jon the Hat]

5 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

facts are, people who excuse Trump and his Nazi followers are almost as bad as him. 

The man is a nutcase and his supporters are deranged, the GOP, and right wingers across the world enable this lunacy.

Not all people who disagree with you are deranged.  Who is excusing Trump?  I think you are reading what you want to read.

 

I am right winger, I think Trump should never have been selected as the GOP candidate let alone president, he is wholly unfit, but I wasn't surprised when he won, becuase everyone told people who liked what he was saying that they were deplorable morons. How is you calling them deranged any different?  

[ozleicester]

2 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Not all people who disagree with you are deranged.  Who is excusing Trump? 

This thread is filled with people defending him and his lunatic minions

 

2 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I am right winger, I think Trump should never have been selected as the GOP candidate let alone president,

and yet you would support the GOP in the future even though they have demonstrated they will sell all of their ideals, and the rights and freedoms of their people to a dictator in order to have power.

[Dunge]

2 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Some of them had t-shirts with Nazi slogans and White Supremacist tattoos FFS. How do you compromise with people like that?

 

If you're talking about the tens of millions of people who voted for Trump then fine, I agree. America's in trouble if it struggles to genuinely help improve their lives so they fall prey to a madman peddling hatred and easy answers again.

 

But a mob attempting a coup like that was not an inevitable consequence of people feeling pissed off about their life. These are people who probably always had extreme views and were whipped up to believe that Trump - and only Trump - is telling the thruth and that no-one else is. His constant lies embolden them and yesterday is what happens when you allow people like that to feel they can act without fear or consequence.

I am talking more about the collective. Regarding the individuals involved in the mob, I agree. There will likely be some who can be reached, but not many. And I’d agree that you can’t compromise with a Nazi. But the important thing is then to thin their ranks. There will be people on the fringes of this group, or not quite at this stage yet who need to be talked away from the mob. The mob needs to be thinned and isolated as much as possible. Hence why I talk about divide and conquer. My concern is that people shouting at Trump and Trump supporters in general will serve only to group them together.

 

I take the view that it’s best to give people on that road another option. That’s why I think it’s now vital for the Republican Party to act decisively to denounce Trump and his politics, and to provide that new path. A new right wing way, if you will, that respects people’s concerns but says that they can go forward without Donald Trump’s hate. You’re unlikely to completely change people, but that way you get people away from the path of danger.

 

I’m sure there will be some flash points ahead. Trump needs to be jailed, for a number of things, although the easiest one might be tax evasion. And I’m sure people would kick off again if it did. But in general I think the best thing for America is to quieten things down and slow the flow of oxygen to all this. Then you can start working on how to deal with it properly.

 

 

 

 

[LCFCCHRIS]

I love how some that throw 'bigot' around in this forum are also unwilling to admit there is any middle ground in these discussions. 

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, ozleicester said:

and yet you would support the GOP in the future even though they have demonstrated they will sell all of their ideals, and the rights and freedoms of their people to a dictator in order to have power.

Actually I align a lot closer to Democrats in the US, the GOP is pretty far right imo.

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Not all people who disagree with you are deranged.  Who is excusing Trump?  I think you are reading what you want to read.

 

I am right winger, I think Trump should never have been selected as the GOP candidate let alone president, he is wholly unfit, but I wasn't surprised when he won, becuase everyone told people who liked what he was saying that they were deplorable morons. How is you calling them deranged any different?  

I'm sorry, but that does sound like an excuse to me. Or at least something of one.

 

 

[casablancas]

I was saying to the fiancée. Just imagine the outcry that would follow if it’d had been the BLM movement. Or if this was a Middle Eastern country - the person responsible would have been ripped to pieces by the states and most likely brought to justice by the states. What is for sure is that Trump should not be in power and he’s clearly unfit to do the role. He built his campaign on racial discrimination and inequality but hid it (barely) behind the visage of immigration. I’m with @Carl the Llamahere. If you defend this , an actual assault on democracy and bearing in mind we’ve been to war for less I hope you have a long hard look at yourselves. 
Non Caucasians doing this it’s terrorism. Caucasians and it’s a protest! Don’t get that myself. 

Edited 7 January 2021 by casablancas

[ozleicester]

the standard you walk past, is the standard you accept

[Strokes]

Just now, ozleicester said:

the standard you walk past, is the standard you accept

Dogshit.

[ozleicester]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Dogshit.

expected

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Dogshit.

nothing more standard than that

[Fightforever]

17 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'm sorry, but that does sound like an excuse to me. Or at least something of one.

 

 

That explaination makes sense though. I think the problem with the left these days is they don't argue their point across anymore they tend to just call you a buzzword hoping peer pressure will put you in line. Rather than debating and proving why they are right and addressing the other sides feelings (which usually are irrelevant and sometimes even with little justification but then agian if you want people to think like you name calling usually doesn't work). I mean you have to remember the average trump supporters reading age is quite low. They hear an insult and react in a way that mirrors their reading age. It's the  failed education system in america that enbales people like trump imho. People are a product of the society they were raised in. I doubt trump supporters came out the womb wanting death to all minorities or something else of the sort. 

Edited 7 January 2021 by Fightforever

[Voll Blau]

16 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I am talking more about the collective. Regarding the individuals involved in the mob, I agree. There will likely be some who can be reached, but not many. And I’d agree that you can’t compromise with a Nazi. But the important thing is then to thin their ranks. There will be people on the fringes of this group, or not quite at this stage yet who need to be talked away from the mob. The mob needs to be thinned and isolated as much as possible. Hence why I talk about divide and conquer. My concern is that people shouting at Trump and Trump supporters in general will serve only to group them together.

 

I take the view that it’s best to give people on that road another option. That’s why I think it’s now vital for the Republican Party to act decisively to denounce Trump and his politics, and to provide that new path. A new right wing way, if you will, that respects people’s concerns but says that they can go forward without Donald Trump’s hate. You’re unlikely to completely change people, but that way you get people away from the path of danger.

 

I’m sure there will be some flash points ahead. Trump needs to be jailed, for a number of things, although the easiest one might be tax evasion. And I’m sure people would kick off again if it did. But in general I think the best thing for America is to quieten things down and slow the flow of oxygen to all this. Then you can start working on how to deal with it properly.

 

I admire your optimisim, I really do. But I think you're being dreadfully naive if you think most of that mob can be detoxified in that way now. What chance is there of that when there were still seven Republican senators and however many Congressmen still objecting to the result yesterday, in spite of seeing the consequences of their baseless objections before their very eyes? One would have been too many, but when that's the example being set at the top then what chance is there to calm those who've acted on their rhetoric?

 

Like you say, firm action on Trump is possibly a way forward but anything done now will just martyr him further in the eyes of his base. Many are now, I fear, brainwashed and beyond the point of no return if they can just take every word that comes out of his mouth as gospel.

Edited 7 January 2021 by Voll Blau

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Fightforever said:

That explaination makes sense though. I think the problem with the left these days is they don't argue their point across anymore they tend to just call you a buzzword hoping peer pressure will put you in line. Rather than debating and proving why they are right amd adressing the other sides feelings (which usually are irrelevant and sometimes even with little justification but then agian if you want people to think like you name calling usually doesn't work). I mean you have to remember the average trump supporters reading age is quite low. They hear an insult and react in a way that mirrors their reading age. It's the  failed education system in america that enbales people like trump imho. People are a product of the society they were raised in. I doubt trump supporters came out the womb wanting death to all minorities or something else of the sort. 

It makes sense, but it doesn't justify the election of the administration that is on its way out or its actions, that include what happened yesterday - that's my point.

 

I'd certainly agree that being overly aggressive isn't the best way to win hearts and minds, but as Voll says above (and I hinted at earlier) you wonder exactly how many of those who still support Trump after the events of yesterday - and that is an important distinction, there is a world of difference between those who voted for Trump before and those still backing him now, and it's the latter who are the important thing right now - can be reached as opposed to not.

 

[Jon the Hat]

17 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'm sorry, but that does sound like an excuse to me. Or at least something of one.

You aren't reading what I wrote.  Trump told people what they wanted to hear so they supported him - democrats told them they were deplorable idiots for doing so - they hardened their support and voted him for president.

[NasPb]

6 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Aye, sure there’s a few in South and Central America with a smile 

 

theres hundreds of known and unknown cases around the world sadly

[Dunge]

8 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

 

I admire your optimisim, I really do. But I think you're being dreadfully naive if you think most of that mob can be detoxified in that way now. What chance is there of that when there were still seven Republican senators and however many Congressmen still objecting to the result yesterday, in spite of seeing the consequences of their baseless objections before their very eyes? One would have been too many, but when that's the example being set at the top then what chance is there to calm those who've acted on their rhetoric?

 

Like you say, firm action on Trump is possibly a way forward but anything done now will just martyr him further in the eyes of his base. Many are now, I fear, brainwashed and beyond the point of no return if they can just take every word that comes out of his mouth as gospel.

Most, no. A few, maybe. The most recent fascists the world had running around were Islamic State. So I guess that’s a good example for reconversion rate.

 

But the important thing is that there will be people who are sympathisers but inactive - far, far greater in number than the mob itself. And my focus would be on them, to find a way of getting between them and the mob. If the mob is small, it can wither and slink back under the rocks, which is probably the best that can be done with it. My concern is that shouting at Trump and all Trump supporters only serves to push those in the background closer to the mob - for protection and fightback if nothing else.

[Mickyblueeyes]

22 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I am talking more about the collective. Regarding the individuals involved in the mob, I agree. There will likely be some who can be reached, but not many. And I’d agree that you can’t compromise with a Nazi. But the important thing is then to thin their ranks. There will be people on the fringes of this group, or not quite at this stage yet who need to be talked away from the mob. The mob needs to be thinned and isolated as much as possible. Hence why I talk about divide and conquer. My concern is that people shouting at Trump and Trump supporters in general will serve only to group them together.

 

I take the view that it’s best to give people on that road another option. That’s why I think it’s now vital for the Republican Party to act decisively to denounce Trump and his politics, and to provide that new path. A new right wing way, if you will, that respects people’s concerns but says that they can go forward without Donald Trump’s hate. You’re unlikely to completely change people, but that way you get people away from the path of danger.

 

I’m sure there will be some flash points ahead. Trump needs to be jailed, for a number of things, although the easiest one might be tax evasion. And I’m sure people would kick off again if it did. But in general I think the best thing for America is to quieten things down and slow the flow of oxygen to all this. Then you can start working on how to deal with it properly.

 

 

 

 

The people who were present yesterday need to be arrested and jailed. No approach to them is necessary. They came with bombs, they intended to cause harm. We are lucky that they managed to find these devices before they were detonated. For me they are attempted murderers with clear intent. 

 

Once that has been done, the US can then deal with this right wing, bible belt, racist ideology that Trump champions. 

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You aren't reading what I wrote.  Trump told people what they wanted to hear so they supported him - democrats told them they were deplorable idiots for doing so - they hardened their support and voted him for president.

I am well aware of what you wrote, and as I said earlier I'm struggling to think of exactly how much being fooled by a con artist into furthering their own power is mitigating circumstances for doing that dirty work.

[Mickyblueeyes]

2 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I'm not sure that pathetic attempt yesterday, which would have been an non issue had they had sufficient police on the ground, really qualifies as an actual attempt at a coup.  What outcome would have resulted in a coup?  IT was a protest which got much further than expected egged on by a increasing sad looking loser.

I think referring to it as a "protest" is insulting to genuine protestors. These nut-jobs showed up with bombs and rifles. You could probably refer to it as a violent protest if that makes it ok. However, there was an intent to cause serious harm and gain control. 

[Finnaldo]

Comparing street protests with the occasional criminal deviancy (smashing a window or looting) with literally storming a federal building whilst government is convened to elect the next President. 
 

One is petty criminal behaviour, the other is approaching (if not decidedly) domestic terrorism. How are they in any way fit to compare?

[Dahnsouff]

18 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I am well aware of what you wrote, and as I said earlier I'm struggling to think of exactly how much being fooled by a con artist into furthering their own power is mitigating circumstances for doing that dirty work.

Reading through this thread is interesting, but this bit in bold stuck out - it sounds quite arrogant too me, and I apologise in advance if I have misunderstood!

 

edit: Let me explain or risk fallng foul of own accussation - surely we cannot be so blinkered to assume what large sections of society resonate with?

Edited 7 January 2021 by Dahnsouff