Not The Politics Thread.

[Voll Blau]

3 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Labour has suspended Unite's assistant general secretary from the party after he tweeted that Home Secretary Priti Patel "should be deported".

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57109007

Good. What a stupid thing to do.

 

Nice to see swift, decisive leadership on disciplinary matters by at least one party in this country.

[Finnaldo]

25 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Labour has suspended Unite's assistant general secretary from the party after he tweeted that Home Secretary Priti Patel "should be deported".

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57109007

 

21 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Good. What a stupid thing to do.

Exactly. Stupid thing to tweet and even if it’s ‘clumsy’ as some are excusing it as then more than a couple minutes thought on it should have put a stop to it.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Ouch.

 

 

 

[LVFox]

1 hour ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Ouch.

 

 

 

Will be interested to see how many of those 8% who say they will vote Green actually do. FPTP means it's always a choice of two. Good for them getting into 3rd on that particular survey though.

[Dunge]

16 minutes ago, LVocey said:

Will be interested to see how many of those 8% who say they will vote Green actually do. FPTP means it's always a choice of two. Good for them getting into 3rd on that particular survey though.

In a way, I’m surprised it’s taken the Greens this long to claim third place.

Not saying I would vote for them, because they come across as very left wing; but I don’t see what the Lib Dems offer anymore that isn’t Labour’s territory.

[LVFox]

24 minutes ago, Dunge said:

In a way, I’m surprised it’s taken the Greens this long to claim third place.

Not saying I would vote for them, because they come across as very left wing; but I don’t see what the Lib Dems offer anymore that isn’t Labour’s territory.

Yeah when you put it like that it, almost makes sense for Labour to stop tearing each other apart, and the centre ground of the party to align with the LD's and the left wing to align with the Greens. Will never happen of course.

[DennisNedry]

If you want to tackle voting fraud, in-person voting seems like the area least in the need of tackling. I would imagine (no data to back this at all, purely a hunch) that postal voting is much more open to easy abuse.

 

Anecdotal of course, but a colleague of my wife is a young Muslim woman in her early 20s. She's one of 6 siblings who all live at home with their parents and one of her grandparents. Around the last election, the staff were chatting about who was voting and who wasn't bothering in the canteen at lunchtime. When they asked this particular colleague, she casually told everybody that her father fills out all of the votes personally for the household (that's 9 votes total for the immediate family). She'd never known any different and assumed it was normal. 

 

Now, I've no idea how widespread this is. I've also no idea how prevalent it is in different communities, especially the more patriarchal ones. It makes you think though. Seems impossible to tackle effectively anyway.

[CosbehFox]

This is an example of the link between home ownership and Tory seats 

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

This is an example of the link between home ownership and Tory seats 

That’s not a huge surprise with the age demographic of both parties voters and that Labour tend to dominate inner cities and university towns.

[doverfox]

9 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

This is an example of the link 

It seems that some on the left view home ownership as an evil corruption of the working class.

[peach0000]

2 hours ago, doverfox said:

It seems that some on the left view home ownership as an evil corruption of the working class.

I don’t think that’s true. I think a huge majority of the working class would love to own their own property but they come from a background that makes it very difficult with the way the system is set up. Plus they tend to live in cities which make home ownership a lot more expensive especially in cities like London. 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

General Election Polling since the local elections

 

Conservative leads over Labour:

15% YouGov (11-12 May)

13% FindOutNow (13-15 May)

13% Opinium (13-14 May)

11% Redfield & Wilton (10 May)

11% SavantaComres (14-16 May)

9% Redfield & Wilton (17 May)

8% SavantaComRes (7-9 May)

 

[doverfox]

10 hours ago, peach0000 said:

I don’t think that’s true. I think a huge majority of the working class would love to own their own property but they come from a background that makes it very difficult with the way the system is set up. Plus they tend to live in cities which make home ownership a lot more expensive especially in cities like London. 

But surely the entire purpose of the tweet and probably the research behind the post is say look Tory scum own their own homes. I would suggest this shows the a huge majority of working class do own their own homes but and here is the point the left cant get their head around is they no longer vote Labour.  I would suggest that it is statements like this tweet and yours that are what is fundamentally wrong with Labour. The working man has evolved, unfortunately those who claim they represent him havent. 

[Strokes]

28 minutes ago, doverfox said:

But surely the entire purpose of the tweet and probably the research behind the post is say look Tory scum own their own homes. I would suggest this shows the a huge majority of working class do own their own homes but and here is the point the left cant get their head around is they no longer vote Labour.  I would suggest that it is statements like this tweet and yours that are what is fundamentally wrong with Labour. The working man has evolved, unfortunately those who claim they represent him havent. 

If memory serves me correct, it’s only the last 2 or 3 years in which home ownership percentage has started going up again since the financial crisis.

It was on a massive decline for the best part of a decade, I’ve not looked into the demographic but surely it’s affected the working class. It’s certainly affected our young adults.

[Sharpe's Fox]

1 hour ago, doverfox said:

But surely the entire purpose of the tweet and probably the research behind the post is say look Tory scum own their own homes.

Statistics and voter demographics is Marxist propaganda, everyone. If you are researching political economy then you're a communist. I don't make the rules.

 

Edited 18 May 2021 by Sharpe's Fox

[Alf Bentley]

15 hours ago, doverfox said:

It seems that some on the left view home ownership as an evil corruption of the working class.

 

2 hours ago, doverfox said:

But surely the entire purpose of the tweet and probably the research behind the post is say look Tory scum own their own homes. I would suggest this shows the a huge majority of working class do own their own homes but and here is the point the left cant get their head around is they no longer vote Labour.  I would suggest that it is statements like this tweet and yours that are what is fundamentally wrong with Labour. The working man has evolved, unfortunately those who claim they represent him havent. 

 

No, I'd say it's 100% clear that isn't the purpose of the tweet. In a neutral manner, the graph highlights a strong correlation between constituencies voting Tory and having high levels of home ownership.

The purpose of the tweet is to promote the linked article. Why don't you open your mind and read the linked article?

 

The article looks at housing disparities (long-term boom in house values for (often retired) home owners v. working-age young priced out of the market), how Tory Govt policy has facilitated this outcome and how this is impacting elections: Tories winning "red wall" seats with high home ownership but struggling in big cities & perhaps soon in commuter towns as young working age folk can't afford to buy.

 

George Eaton, who did the tweet, is a New Statesman journalist. The NS is a left-of-centre publication, but one that provides serious, credible analysis - and that is often highly critical of Labour and the Left. If you want to see a "Tory scum" angle to it, it would be "cynical Tory Govt scum encourage housing boom to secure power via the votes of home-owners in a way that excludes the young & city dwellers from home ownership". Nothing to do with "Tory scum" working-class voters. 

 

If I responded to some credible article analysing attitudes to patriotism and their impact on elections with "It seems some of the right want to dress up as Hitler and establish a Third Reich in Britain", that would only be slightly more ridiculous than your responses here. Try reading the linked article. You might not agree with the analysis, but you'll clearly see that it's absolutely NOT an attack on working-class homeownership or "Tory scum" voters.

 

 

[Dunge]

9 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

No, I'd say it's 100% clear that isn't the purpose of the tweet. In a neutral manner, the graph highlights a strong correlation between constituencies voting Tory and having high levels of home ownership.

The purpose of the tweet is to promote the linked article. Why don't you open your mind and read the linked article?

 

The article looks at housing disparities (long-term boom in house values for (often retired) home owners v. working-age young priced out of the market), how Tory Govt policy has facilitated this outcome and how this is impacting elections: Tories winning "red wall" seats with high home ownership but struggling in big cities & perhaps soon in commuter towns as young working age folk can't afford to buy.

 

George Eaton, who did the tweet, is a New Statesman journalist. The NS is a left-of-centre publication, but one that provides serious, credible analysis - and that is often highly critical of Labour and the Left. If you want to see a "Tory scum" angle to it, it would be "cynical Tory Govt scum encourage housing boom to secure power via the votes of home-owners in a way that excludes the young & city dwellers from home ownership". Nothing to do with "Tory scum" working-class voters. 

 

If I responded to some credible article analysing attitudes to patriotism and their impact on elections with "It seems some of the right want to dress up as Hitler and establish a Third Reich in Britain", that would only be slightly more ridiculous than your responses here. Try reading the linked article. You might not agree with the analysis, but you'll clearly see that it's absolutely NOT an attack on working-class homeownership or "Tory scum" voters.

 

 

The way I took the headline was to figure that policies that enable someone to buy and keep their own home are vote winners, while policies that don’t are vote losers. Which may sound obvious, but I’m convinced this is a massive driver of outlook in this country.

 

I reckon: If the Tories want the votes of millennials in the future (not all, but some) then they need to facilitate them getting out of the renting trap. If Labour want to win back votes, they have to understand that home ownership and the freedom it brings is a massive, core feeling that doesn’t appear in political surveys because it’s not the thing that jumps to the front of your mind when someone says “politics”.

[Alf Bentley]

8 minutes ago, Dunge said:

The way I took the headline was to figure that policies that enable someone to buy and keep their own home are vote winners, while policies that don’t are vote losers. Which may sound obvious, but I’m convinced this is a massive driver of outlook in this country.

 

I reckon: If the Tories want the votes of millennials in the future (not all, but some) then they need to facilitate them getting out of the renting trap. If Labour want to win back votes, they have to understand that home ownership and the freedom it brings is a massive, core feeling that doesn’t appear in political surveys because it’s not the thing that jumps to the front of your mind when someone says “politics”.

 

Those are all fair points - and many of them are made or at least implied in the article linked to the tweet. Worth reading - and not an excessively long article.

[twoleftfeet]

25 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

No, I'd say it's 100% clear that isn't the purpose of the tweet. In a neutral manner, the graph highlights a strong correlation between constituencies voting Tory and having high levels of home ownership.

The purpose of the tweet is to promote the linked article. Why don't you open your mind and read the linked article?

 

The article looks at housing disparities (long-term boom in house values for (often retired) home owners v. working-age young priced out of the market), how Tory Govt policy has facilitated this outcome and how this is impacting elections: Tories winning "red wall" seats with high home ownership but struggling in big cities & perhaps soon in commuter towns as young working age folk can't afford to buy.

 

George Eaton, who did the tweet, is a New Statesman journalist. The NS is a left-of-centre publication, but one that provides serious, credible analysis - and that is often highly critical of Labour and the Left. If you want to see a "Tory scum" angle to it, it would be "cynical Tory Govt scum encourage housing boom to secure power via the votes of home-owners in a way that excludes the young & city dwellers from home ownership". Nothing to do with "Tory scum" working-class voters. 

 

If I responded to some credible article analysing attitudes to patriotism and their impact on elections with "It seems some of the right want to dress up as Hitler and establish a Third Reich in Britain", that would only be slightly more ridiculous than your responses here. Try reading the linked article. You might not agree with the analysis, but you'll clearly see that it's absolutely NOT an attack on working-class homeownership or "Tory scum" voters.

 

 

I believe that contary to some of the points you make that the cynical Tory GOVT did indeed use home ownership to help surpress workers from taking industrial action. but thats just a personal feeling. 

[String fellow]

3 hours ago, doverfox said:

But surely the entire purpose of the tweet and probably the research behind the post is say look Tory scum own their own homes. I would suggest this shows the a huge majority of working class do own their own homes but and here is the point the left cant get their head around is they no longer vote Labour.  I would suggest that it is statements like this tweet and yours that are what is fundamentally wrong with Labour. The working man has evolved, unfortunately those who claim they represent him havent. 

Pretty offensive term, that. It's not really any different to slurs applied to any given group of people based on their race, gender, age or whatever. 

[twoleftfeet]

is it really that offensive as having been called it myself on face book, i thought it was a term of love from those on the left.  i feel pretty much the same as this guy Tony Parsons: Why I've become Tory scum | British GQ | British GQ (gq-magazine.co.uk)

Edited 18 May 2021 by twoleftfeet

[String fellow]

Does that mean it's okay to insult roughly half the electorate of this country? Am I okay to talk about Labour scum?

[twoleftfeet]

12 minutes ago, String fellow said:

Does that mean it's okay to insult roughly half the electorate of this country? Am I okay to talk about Labour scum?

No and indeed Angela Rayner appologised for doing it in the house of commons, but it does happen and the name calling tends to come from the left.  

[leicsmac]

49 minutes ago, String fellow said:

Pretty offensive term, that. It's not really any different to slurs applied to any given group of people based on their race, gender, age or whatever. 

The context here being that it was used in an incredibly overexaggerated fashion just to make a point notwithstanding.

[String fellow]

3 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Statistics and voter demographics is Marxist propaganda, everyone. If you are researching political economy then you're a communist. I don't make the rules.

 

On the broader question of ownership, it was Pierre-Joseph Proudhon who, in 1840, wrote that property is theft! I first came across this pearl of wisdom (!) as a student, when a colleague expressed the same view. Interestingly, that didn't stop him from accepting lifts in my car.