Not The Politics Thread.

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

I’m not sure that particular point washes, the point isn’t that they won’t vote for career politicians. It’s that the lines between Labour and conservatives have become blurred because of it.

Wakefield is the perfect example of the point @Heathrow fox was trying to make. Even if his figures may or may not be a tad off.

Mary Creagh, left education and went straight to work for the European Parliament in Brussels.

 

If you are from Wakefield and voted Labour all your life, you are now splitting hairs between Imran Khan and Mary Creagh. At least Imran is from Wakefield and backed Brexit like 66% of them. What reasons do you have to re-elect Mary?

Agreed, I didn’t expand on the point well enough (I have done here previously - sometimes the penalty of jumping in a debate mid way through), folk are more like to vote for someone whose ‘been there and done it’ regardless of career.

 

If there’s a story of them working themselves up in life, it’s generally a winner. 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

First poll since Thursday's elections.

 

 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

 

[Sharpe's Fox]

12 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

 

He's finished, isn't he? I don't see how he can recover from those figures. The guys whole pitch was that he was electable...

[UpTheLeagueFox]

5 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

He's finished, isn't he? 

"He's nooo finished. He's only 28..."

 

 

[Innovindil]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57059459

 

Not sure why a consultation is needed tbh. We've already slapped certain religious "freedoms" down by allowing gay marriages, with very little backlash I'd add. In today's world of mental health being closer to the front, I'm surprised that being scared straight by praying to a sky fairy isn't treated in the same vein as physical "treatments". 

 

Past time to condemn this nonsense to the history books. 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57059459

 

Not sure why a consultation is needed tbh. We've already slapped certain religious "freedoms" down by allowing gay marriages, with very little backlash I'd add. In today's world of mental health being closer to the front, I'm surprised that being scared straight by praying to a sky fairy isn't treated in the same vein as physical "treatments". 

 

Past time to condemn this nonsense to the history books. 

I'm amazed this hasn't been sorted before tbh. Among the worst that fundie religion has to offer.

[Sharpe's Fox]

13 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

"He's nooo finished. He's only 28..."

 

 

class. love owt like that, me.

[David Guiza]

29 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

He's finished, isn't he? I don't see how he can recover from those figures. The guys whole pitch was that he was electable...

He is/was more electable than the second placed candidate, Rebecca Long-Bailey, and Nandy was seemingly never going to a credible candidate this time around. 

 

I still think it's incredibly early days. Starmer's entire reign has been during a national (and global) lockdown whereby he, and any other leader, was damned if they did or didn't in the vast majority of situations. Now is the test, he needs to provide popular policy and hold Johnson and co to account on their post-Brexit/pandemic premiership. Anything up to now was never going to change the political landscape one way or the other.

 

If and when he does go then it would appear that Burnham remains the overwhelming bookies' favourite, and he'd get my vote too were he to stand. I however can't see him being interested for at least a year or two following his re-election as Mayor.

   

[bovril]

Don't really understand the defeatism to be honest, it becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. Labour were level in the polls 6 months ago before the vaccination campaign which is admittedly one of the UK political success stories of the 21st century so far.

[bovril]

I mean if the left wing press are going to tell people the UK is basically Hungary no wonder they're going to think the opposition hasn't done a good job. 

[Finnaldo]

I’m a lot less fussed with the emergence of Burnham in the last year, different beast from the man who ran in 2015 and he’s got a platform I think would appeal to Labour left, Labour right and a lot of former Labour voters as well. Probably the most appealing ‘character’ Labour have produced in a generation of politicians. 
 

Starmers took a shoe-ing (granted I agree with Bov’s points above that to an extent the vaccination success would limit him) so I’d give him a year to prove he’s got something about him to pull it back, otherwise parachute Burnham in. 

[Alf Bentley]

The Batley & Spen byelection is now a "must-win game" for Starmer - has to happen by July, triggered by the Lab MP winning the West Yorks mayoralty.

If Lab hold that, I reckon he'll have a year to turn things round - under more favourable circumstances, as vaccine/end-of-lockdown joy gives way to politics as normal & many tricky challenges for the Govt.

As Bovril says, poll ratings for both Labour and Starmer were decent until the turn of the year. No reason why things can't be turned round.

 

In part, Starmer has been unlucky with the timing of these elections (nobody was complaining about the lack of a Labour vision 6 months ago). He was also unlucky with such a difficult byelection coming up.

 

On the other hand, he's also presided over some damaging cock-ups in the last few weeks:

- The Hartlepool byelection candidate & campaign seem to have been led by head office & his appointee McMahon, and were shambolic in multiple ways

- The needless struggle/chaos over Rayner's job change will harm his support within the party (though the move itself might be sensible - she's a good front person on policy, maybe not as backroom campaigns coordinator?)

- Little mentioned in media, but the promotion of Reeves & Streeting risks provoking the Corbynistas as they were 2 of those most critical of Corbyn.....a leftish promotee or two would be good tactics to avoid infighting

 

If the Tories take Batley & Spen (possible, especially just as lockdown has ended, though maybe trickier than Hartlepool), Starmer's leadership could be in trouble....

But I wonder if that is a good thing from the Tory perspective? If the Labour leader is Burnham or Rayner, they're a lot more difficult to dismiss as "smarmy, out-of-touch Islington set" or whatever & maybe more appealing to some lost Lab voters.

 

[Bellend Sebastian]

Seriously, WTF is this voter photo ID thing about?

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

Seriously, WTF is this voter photo ID thing about?

 

Trumpian suppression of the vote among those least likely to vote Tory?

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

Seriously, WTF is this voter photo ID thing about?

 

10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Trumpian suppression of the vote among those least likely to vote Tory?

It is rare, very rare indeed, where the number of fraudulent votes such measures catch is higher than the number of legitimate voting opportunities it makes either heinously difficult or actually impossible.

[Bellend Sebastian]

25 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Trumpian suppression of the vote among those least likely to vote Tory?

As if they didn't have enough people voting for them already

[Kopfkino]

27 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Trumpian suppression of the vote among those least likely to vote Tory?

Is that what it is in all the other countries that require ID to vote?

[Bellend Sebastian]

3 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Is that what it is in all the other countries that require ID to vote?

Just the ones where it was brought in where there was no evidence it was needed, I expect

[Buce]

27 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

It is rare, very rare indeed, where the number of fraudulent votes such measures catch is higher than the number of legitimate voting opportunities it makes either heinously difficult or actually impossible.

 

'Of the 595 alleged cases of electoral fraud investigated by the police in 2019 only 33 related to voter impersonation at a polling station – that is just 0.000057% of the over 58m votes cast in all the elections that took place that year.'

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/11/mandatory-voter-id-uk-democracy-electoral-system-voters

[Alf Bentley]

33 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Is that what it is in all the other countries that require ID to vote?

 

Most countries make it compulsory to carry ID cards, so it isn't an issue. We don't have ID cards.

 

According to the Electoral Commission, 24% of UK voters have neither a passport nor a photographic driving licence - and 7.5% of voters have no photo ID whatsoever: 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/05/more-three-million-uk-voters-have-no-form-photo-id

 

The devil will be in the detail, to some extent. If, for example, the Govt offered all potential voters photo ID free of charge, it might not be a problem.

But I've not heard any suggestion that will happen - and it would face a lot of opposition as "ID cards by the back door".

 

Otherwise you're relying on people who don't have appropriate ID acquiring it in order to be able to vote - and that's bloody expensive, if you're skint and have to buy a passport you don't intend to use.

[Bellend Sebastian]

30 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

'Of the 595 alleged cases of electoral fraud investigated by the police in 2019 only 33 related to voter impersonation at a polling station – that is just 0.000057% of the over 58m votes cast in all the elections that took place that year.'

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/11/mandatory-voter-id-uk-democracy-electoral-system-voters

Govt: Therefore we must act quickly and decisively

Security services: Shall we investigate the alleged interference on the part of Russia to interfere in our elections then?

Govt: Best leave that, don't want to rock the boat

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kopfkino]

1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Most countries make it compulsory to carry ID cards, so it isn't an issue. We don't have ID cards.

 

According to the Electoral Commission, 24% of UK voters have neither a passport nor a photographic driving licence - and 7.5% of voters have no photo ID whatsoever: 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/05/more-three-million-uk-voters-have-no-form-photo-id

 

The devil will be in the detail, to some extent. If, for example, the Govt offered all potential voters photo ID free of charge, it might not be a problem.

But I've not heard any suggestion that will happen - and it would face a lot of opposition as "ID cards by the back door".

 

Otherwise you're relying on people who don't have appropriate ID acquiring it in order to be able to vote - and that's bloody expensive, if you're skint and have to buy a passport you don't intend to use.

The Netherlands requires ID to be carried but that can be a passport, don’t have to have an ID card. The Netherlands requires ID to vote. You have to pay for your ID card or Passport in the Netherlands. Sweden is exactly the same. Those two bastions of Trumpian voter suppression.

 

Its not ID cards by the back door (actually not that much opposition to ID cards) because nobody is forcing you to carry one and present it to the police if asked.

 

But anyway, given NI gives the option of a free electoral ID and that is the recommendation from the Electoral Commission, its likely that will be part of it. Albeit we don’t know yet. But that’s entirely the point, it’s yet another example of an emotionally incontinent reaction from many without really knowing any details. 

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

The Netherlands requires ID to be carried but that can be a passport, don’t have to have an ID card. The Netherlands requires ID to vote. You have to pay for your ID card or Passport in the Netherlands. Sweden is exactly the same. Those two bastions of Trumpian voter suppression.

 

That's subtle! You've switched from asking me about "all the other countries that require ID to vote" to asking about particular countries that suit your argument.

 

And, as I understand it, you're saying even those countries make people carry ID generally (not just for voting)......which wouldn't be the case in the UK.

 

4 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Its not ID cards by the back door (actually not that much opposition to ID cards) because nobody is forcing you to carry one and present it to the police if asked.

 

I didn't say that it was ID cards by the back door. I said that it would face a lot of opposition as "ID cards by the back door" (words deliberately in quotation marks, anticipating what others would say - not what I was saying).

 

If you're going to make arrogant, confrontational, insulting replies, please learn to read the posts you're replying to properly.

 

4 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

But anyway, given NI gives the option of a free electoral ID and that is the recommendation from the Electoral Commission, its likely that will be part of it. Albeit we don’t know yet. But that’s entirely the point, it’s yet another example of an emotionally incontinent reaction from many without really knowing any details. 

 

"Emotionally incontinent reaction", eh?

 

In my post, I wrote "the devil will be in the detail, to some extent" and stated that it might not be a problem if all potential voters were given photo ID free of charge......in other words, I'm waiting for the details.

But I'm not optimistic of a cynical, opportunistic Govt led by a proven liar who will do anything for power and who has already tried to prorogue parliament.

 

Whereas you rush in assuming that "it's likely" the Govt will follow Electoral Commission recommendations and issue free photographic ID to how many millions of voters? 45 million?

A bit of an "emotionally incontinent reaction" on your part, I'd say! 

[twoleftfeet]

The voter ID will stop the poor voting? what the poor who need to provide ID to claim benefits, Get a free bus pass when you reach retirement, you even need ID to rent from a slum landlord. i get it you don't agree with voter ID but if you were really worried about the poor you would call for the BBC licence fee to be abolished, as £20 to renew a driving licence for 10 years is still cheaper than £159 for the Tv licence for 1 year.