Not The Politics Thread.

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

 

This has, is, and always will be the problem. 

 

Political systems are complex. Misinformation is rife and large sections of our media is biased and polarising. 

 

People don't really know what they're voting for and so they gravitate to headline policies and personality politics. 

I'd agree.

 

But establishing a dialogue in order to make sure people are more informed has three difficulties that are immediately apparent:

 

- As per above, it's consuming in both time and effort, and that only increases with the number of people who need to be informed.

 

- it relies on a populace that actually *wants* to be informed and so is willing to make the effort to do so, which unfortunately for a significant proportion, appears to not be the case.

 

- related to the second problem, there are also vested interests that want the status quo to continue, have power, and are willing to expend considerable amounts of that power to get what they want. Keeping a populace uninformed is part of that, and so you'd have to deal with them, too.

[Voll Blau]

Labour taking the West of England and Cambs and Peterborough mayoralties is reasonably interesting.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

2 hours ago, RoboFox said:

People don't really know what they're voting for 

The old 'blame the electorate for voting the wrong way' narrative?

[bovril]

Just now, UpTheLeagueFox said:

The old 'blame the electorate for voting the wrong way' narrative?

Even if you don't agree with him, that's clearly not what he said.

 

Personally I agree there's an issue in the UK with voters being poorly informed and with the education of the public in general. 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

2 minutes ago, bovril said:

Even if you don't agree with him, that's clearly not what he said.

Personally I agree there's an issue in the UK with voters being poorly informed and with the education of the public in general. 

Apologies if I misunderstood what @RoboFox was getting at.

 

But there definitely seems to be a feeling from "The Left" that anyone who disagrees with their view of the world is some kind of pig-thick, evil monster, rather than trying to reach out and understand why people don't vote for them.

[CosbehFox]

50 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Labour taking the West of England and Cambs and Peterborough mayoralties is reasonably interesting.

Further evidence how collectively there is more support for left leaning parties than Tories within the population. Mayoral votes allowing for a second preference - in the WoE it was close run thing before that and Cambs/P'boro, that's how Labour achieved it. Still some effort given the rural nature of those areas. 

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Apologies if I misunderstood what @RoboFox was getting at.

 

But there definitely seems to be a feeling from "The Left" that anyone who disagrees with their view of the world is some kind of pig-thick, evil monster, rather than trying to reach out and understand why people don't vote for them.

Is this a generalisation that can actually be substantiated?

 

TBH though this plays into a much bigger debate about democracy itself and what people specifically want from it.

[bovril]

21 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Apologies if I misunderstood what @RoboFox was getting at.

 

But there definitely seems to be a feeling from "The Left" that anyone who disagrees with their view of the world is some kind of pig-thick, evil monster, rather than trying to reach out and understand why people don't vote for them.

A few people like that, social media amplifies them.

 

If we take the biggest political development of recent times - Brexit - I can't remember many on "The Right" (ok not only right wingers voted Brexit) trying to understand why people didn't vote for it, other than calling them remoaners and liberal elitists, despite the fact that it has damaged many people's lives. 

 

So a bit of consistency would be nice. 

[Alf Bentley]

28 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Apologies if I misunderstood what @RoboFox was getting at.

 

I presume you didn't watch @David Guiza's video clip that @RoboFox was replying to?

 

It has 2 Hartlepudlians blaming Labour for the state of the hospital, police and courts in Hartlepool - apparently unaware that it is the Govt that is mainly responsible for them, not the local MP.

There are plenty of justifiable reasons for disapproving of Labour, but that makes as much sense as blaming the Tories for the Iraq War & Brown's response to the 2008 Financial Crash because you happened to have a Tory MP. 

 

It's a lack of basic understanding of elementary stuff about our democracy, as Robo points out - and the sort of stuff that should be learned in school (and I'm not saying that to put anyone down - I didn't learn it in school, either; I just learned it because I happened to have an intense interest in politics, which most people don't).

 

28 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

 

But there definitely seems to be a feeling from "The Left" that anyone who disagrees with their view of the world is some kind of pig-thick, evil monster, rather than trying to reach out and understand why people don't vote for them.

 

But there definitely seems to be a feeling from "The Right" that anyone who disagrees with their view of the world is some kind of naive, sanctimonious, woke extremist, rather than trying to reach out and understand......

Oh! Hang on! I've just remembered that only applies to some people on the Right - the more ignorant, polarising sort who mouth off on social media.

In fact, plenty who express "right-wing" views don't always vote Tory or have a well thought-through world view that happens to differ from mine.

[Dunge]

23 minutes ago, bovril said:

A few people like that, social media amplifies them.

 

If we take the biggest political development of recent times - Brexit - I can't remember many on "The Right" (ok not only right wingers voted Brexit) trying to understand why people didn't vote for it, other than calling them remoaners and liberal elitists, despite the fact that it has damaged many people's lives. 

 

So a bit of consistency would be nice. 

I simply don’t believe that’s true. All I saw for years, daily, was people saying how Brexit was an awful idea and why they were remainers, including:

 

- They felt it was better to solve international problems, including climate change, as a group, and the EU was the best available way of doing that.

- Similar to the above, they felt scientific collaboration benefitted from us being in the EU.

- With the EU being our primary trading partners, our economy would be stronger as part of the EU.

- We would have more influence in the world as part of the EU, and maybe that the UK itself was anachronistic in the modern world.

- They believed the EU could be reformed, or alternatively that we had a best-of-both-worlds situation and didn’t want to change that.

- They were concerned that Brexit was undefined and short on exact details for what lay ahead.

- They didn’t want us to be too close to America.

- They enjoyed freedom of movement.

- They wanted us to be an open country rather than a closed country.

- They feared what the Tories might do in Brexit Britain, from selling off the NHS to lowering food standards to removing workers’ rights.

- They feared the effects of a hard Irish border.

- They believed the EU setup was more democratic than the UK setup. (I have seen it argued.)

 

Believe me, as a Brexit voter, I understand why people voted Remain. I sympathise with some of the above. I’m sure I’ve missed a few reasons in that list as well. And feel free to add your own because I’m always interested to see them even if I disagree. My view has always been that there were reasons to vote either way, and I, personally, felt the arguments to leave were stronger. I’ve never questioned that others had a different view that was just as legitimate, and I’ve seen many other Leave voters say similar. I have rarely felt that I was afforded the same.

 

I was ready to accept whatever result came out of that referendum as a conclusion, although obviously I hoped it would be Leave. But what I also saw a lot over the years was people saying that those who voted Brexit must be racist, stupid or both. Repeatedly. Often from friends who either saw my viewpoint as a minority one, didn’t believe me or simply weren’t interested. And here’s the thing - so did the red wall voters. And I don’t believe they’ve forgiven people for that yet.

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Labour taking the West of England and Cambs and Peterborough mayoralties is reasonably interesting.

 

Yep, a continuation of the phenomenon that saw Labour take Canterbury in 2017 and Putney in 2019, while losing lots of seats in the North and Midlands.

A combination of folk in work in prospering areas but unable to afford to buy a home/cost of living, along with students, liberal professionals in good jobs ("Silicon Fen") or moving out of cities and ethnic minorities?

 

From a purely electoral point of view, unfortunately Labour would need a massive swing to take a lot more such seats at a general election. It already holds all the Bristol seats, Cambridge and Peterborough.

No good, say, winning Bradley & Filton Stoke (Bristol suburb), South Cambridgeshire, Worthing & Milton Keynes......unless they/we take back most of the seats lost in the North/Midlands (and preferably some in Scotland).

 

.....and that's ignoring the essential politics of it. Great that some different groups want to vote Labour, but the party really has to convince people in deindustrialised areas, maybe underpaid with crap public services, expensive public transport, expensive housing and poor opportunities that it speaks for them and will act for them. Otherwise, it loses a big part of its purpose.

 

It increases electoral options, I suppose - improve poll ratings sufficiently to, say, take back 75% of the red wall seats, pick up a dozen in Scotland and a dozen in prosperous towns/suburbs....that would be enough to be largest party, at least.

A long way to go to get there, though. 

[Alf Bentley]

12 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I simply don’t believe that’s true. All I saw for years, daily, was people saying how Brexit was an awful idea and why they were remainers, including:

 

- They felt it was better to solve international problems, including climate change, as a group, and the EU was the best available way of doing that.

- Similar to the above, they felt scientific collaboration benefitted from us being in the EU.

- With the EU being our primary trading partners, our economy would be stronger as part of the EU.

- We would have more influence in the world as part of the EU, and maybe that the UK itself was anachronistic in the modern world.

- They believed the EU could be reformed, or alternatively that we had a best-of-both-worlds situation and didn’t want to change that.

- They were concerned that Brexit was undefined and short on exact details for what lay ahead.

- They didn’t want us to be too close to America.

- They enjoyed freedom of movement.

- They wanted us to be an open country rather than a closed country.

- They feared what the Tories might do in Brexit Britain, from selling off the NHS to lowering food standards to removing workers’ rights.

- They feared the effects of a hard Irish border.

- They believed the EU setup was more democratic than the UK setup. (I have seen it argued.)

 

Believe me, as a Brexit voter, I understand why people voted Remain. I sympathise with some of the above. I’m sure I’ve missed a few reasons in that list as well. And feel free to add your own because I’m always interested to see them even if I disagree. My view has always been that there were reasons to vote either way, and I, personally, felt the arguments to leave were stronger. I’ve never questioned that others had a different view that was just as legitimate, and I’ve seen many other Leave voters say similar. I have rarely felt that I was afforded the same.

 

I was ready to accept whatever result came out of that referendum as a conclusion, although obviously I hoped it would be Leave. But what I also saw a lot over the years was people saying that those who voted Brexit must be racist, stupid or both. Repeatedly. Often from friends who either saw my viewpoint as a minority one, didn’t believe me or simply weren’t interested. And here’s the thing - so did the red wall voters. And I don’t believe they’ve forgiven people for that yet.

 

Good post, even if I ended up on the other side (I tilted Remain after being uncertain until about a week before the vote).

You have a better grasp of the Remain case than most Remainers, I reckon!

 

I really think that social media - and the way it is used by the minority of sanctimonious or loudmouth Lefties & Remainers - has done a lot of damage to Left or Remain causes.

The minority of loudmouth Righties & Brexiteers don't seem to harm their own causes so much

 

I mean, I note that you say "what you saw a lot.....was people saying those who voted Brexit must be racist, stupid or both". Mainly saw online, I'm guessing?

I'm assuming that not many people were saying that to your face - or am I misreading you?

"To hell with sanctimonious keyboard warriors!".....said the sanctimonious keyboard warrior. 

[Kopfkino]

15 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Yep, a continuation of the phenomenon that saw Labour take Canterbury in 2017 and Putney in 2019, while losing lots of seats in the North and Midlands.

A combination of folk in work in prospering areas but unable to afford to buy a home/cost of living, along with students, liberal professionals in good jobs ("Silicon Fen") or moving out of cities and ethnic minorities?

 

From a purely electoral point of view, unfortunately Labour would need a massive swing to take a lot more such seats at a general election. It already holds all the Bristol seats, Cambridge and Peterborough.

Doesn’t hold Peterborough. Not that these results indicate they would win Peterborough either, Conservative candidate won Peterborough even after 2nd preference votes. South Cambs is an interesting but is more ripe for Lib Dem’s to swan in and take.

 

I think both illustrate Labour’s problem though. They pile up the votes compared to Cons in Cambridge and Bristol(Bristol once you do 2nd pref votes is like Liverpool for Labour to Con support), to win these mayoralties but in a GE scenario it’s horribly inefficient.

[Alf Bentley]

2 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Doesn’t hold Peterborough. Not that these results indicate they would win Peterborough either, Conservative candidate won Peterborough even after 2nd preference votes. South Cambs is an interesting but is more ripe for Lib Dem’s to swan in and take.

 

I think both illustrate Labour’s problem though. They pile up the votes compared to Cons in Cambridge and Bristol(Bristol once you do 2nd pref votes is like Liverpool for Labour to Con support), to win these mayoralties but in a GE scenario it’s horribly inefficient.

 

I stand corrected on your first point - Lab won Peterborough in 2017 & 2019 byelection, but forgot they lost it again by 2580 votes at the 2019 general election.

Even if the Tories "won" the mayoral race in Peterborough (interesting, that - must have been a big Lab vote in Cambridge & decent in South Cambs, I assume), it's the sort of place they have to win in 2023-24 to have any chance of avoiding a Tory majority.

 

I agree entirely with your second point. Under FPTP, there's no route to national govt for Labour without a significant recovery in the North/Midlands (& preferably Scotland, if still part of UK).

Realistically, even if things go well for the party over the next 2-3 years, there's probably only a scattering of southern/suburban seats Labour could take - and piling up votes in the big cities achieves nothing at a GE.

[Kopfkino]

28 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I stand corrected on your first point - Lab won Peterborough in 2017 & 2019 byelection, but forgot they lost it again by 2580 votes at the 2019 general election.

Even if the Tories "won" the mayoral race in Peterborough (interesting, that - must have been a big Lab vote in Cambridge & decent in South Cambs, I assume), it's the sort of place they have to win in 2023-24 to have any chance of avoiding a Tory majority.

 

I agree entirely with your second point. Under FPTP, there's no route to national govt for Labour without a significant recovery in the North/Midlands (& preferably Scotland, if still part of UK).

Realistically, even if things go well for the party over the next 2-3 years, there's probably only a scattering of southern/suburban seats Labour could take - and piling up votes in the big cities achieves nothing at a GE.

On first preference the Cons won with an 8% majority. It’s just that Lib Dem 2nd Prefs broke heavily for Labour. Labour were well behind in 3rd with 22% in South Cambs but after 2nd prefs from LDs (comfortably won in South Cambs) dropping out they took South Cambs with 53%. That obviously doesn’t translate in a GE so there’s not really much to take from it for Labour imo, it just states the obvious that Cambridge is rock solid 

[Dunge]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Good post, even if I ended up on the other side (I tilted Remain after being uncertain until about a week before the vote).

You have a better grasp of the Remain case than most Remainers, I reckon!

 

I really think that social media - and the way it is used by the minority of sanctimonious or loudmouth Lefties & Remainers - has done a lot of damage to Left or Remain causes.

The minority of loudmouth Righties & Brexiteers don't seem to harm their own causes so much

 

I mean, I note that you say "what you saw a lot.....was people saying those who voted Brexit must be racist, stupid or both". Mainly saw online, I'm guessing?

I'm assuming that not many people were saying that to your face - or am I misreading you?

"To hell with sanctimonious keyboard warriors!".....said the sanctimonious keyboard warrior. 

Yeah, mostly online. I’ve been a lurker here for years, for instance, and always used to read the old politics threads even though I wasn’t commenting at the time. I know @leicsmac outside of this forum (genuinely you won’t meet a nicer bloke although we have different political outlooks) so I found myself drawn here easily. But other than this, the usual places - Facebook (now avoiding), other forums, BBC website + comments, etc. But also things like Question Time, which are spoken but not face-to-face, hearing what a significant proportion of the panellists and audience thought of people who had voted Brexit, just assuming the reasons. Plus then reading people’s reaction to Brexit voters online afterwards. So a variety of places outside of direct, personal conversation, but mostly online.

 

I have had the occasional discussion about it face to face, although people are generally a lot politer that way! (usually anyway...)

Although I got some pretty short shrift from family in the days that immediately followed the referendum. It became the thing to avoid talking about or giving anything of my side. In fact, my family were “the wrong way around”: My parents both voted Remain. Although I reckon my dad might have changed his view since.

Anyway, I’ve never been particularly bombastic in person about Brexit. I prefer not to mention it unless I’m certain the conversation can stay calm.

[Heathrow fox]

11 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

What? That is clearly a crock of shit. I don't even like the Labour Party at the moment but I can think of eight straight away. Nadia Whittome was a carer, Ian Lavery a miner, Rosena Allin Khan a doctor, Angela Rayner a social carer, John Trickett a builder, Ian Byrne a taxi driver, Mick Whitley in a car plant, Paula Barker a council officer. That's just people around the Labour left I know about off by heart. I know of about 30 MP's and there are 200 of them! Really ridiculous post from yourself.

I know the conversations moved on, but in my defence,in a later post I said seven MPs who had done a working class job,and that then opens up the what is a working class job debate.I don’t think you can include Doctors,teachers engineers or any other profession that requires high level education/training.The MPs you mention are about the sum of it - Dr Khan.If you can name a few more then fair play.No doubt most Labour MPs had to get their hands dirty at some stage to get through uni.it wouldn’t have felt long term though.

[Sharpe's Fox]

22 minutes ago, Heathrow fox said:

I know the conversations moved on, but in my defence,in a later post I said seven MPs who had done a working class job,and that then opens up the what is a working class job debate.I don’t think you can include Doctors,teachers engineers or any other profession that requires high level education/training.The MPs you mention are about the sum of it - Dr Khan.If you can name a few more then fair play.No doubt most Labour MPs had to get their hands dirty at some stage to get through uni.it wouldn’t have felt long term though.

Well that argument is dross but fair enough, we discount Rosena Allin Khan and need to replace her. Imran Hussein was a shelf stacker and that's still more than the seven you said and I'm still right. I remind you I only know the background of the SCG MP's I actually like and there in all likelihood will be dozens of moderates I have never heard of and can't be arsed to even look at who will have done the unskilled labour you evidently like in a lawmaker.

Edited 10 May 2021 by Sharpe's Fox

[Facecloth]

13 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Well that argument is dross but fair enough, we discount Rosena Allin Khan and need to replace her. Imran Hussein was a shelf stacker and that's still more than the seven you said and I'm still right. I remind you I only know the background of the SCG MP's I actually like and there in all likelihood will be dozens of moderates I have never heard of and can't be arsed to even look at who will have done the unskilled labour you evidently like in a lawmaker.

I started to look some up. Lee Anderson was a coal miner, so there's another. 

 

Mohamed Yasin, taxi driver, there's another.

Edited 10 May 2021 by Facecloth

[Sharpe's Fox]

7 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I started to look some up. Lee Anderson was a coal miner, so there's another. 

 

Mohamed Yasin, taxi driver, there's another.

Yep. Legitimately one of weirdest things I have read on this website. I get the overall point being made but it takes a special kind of stupid to believe the figures quoted.

[CosbehFox]

The Labour = Working Class job argument doesn’t really wash when Wakefield has a Tory MP whose previously worked for the UN. 

[Heathrow fox]

35 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Well that argument is dross but fair enough, we discount Rosena Allin Khan and need to replace her. Imran Hussein was a shelf stacker and that's still more than the seven you said and I'm still right. I remind you I only know the background of the SCG MP's I actually like and there in all likelihood will be dozens of moderates I have never heard of and can't be arsed to even look at who will have done the unskilled labour you evidently like in a lawmaker.

Imran Hussein the shelf stacking barrister you mean?Anderson defected to the Cons.

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Heathrow fox said:

Imran Hussein the shelf stacking barrister you mean?Anderson defected to the Cons.

Yeah my mistake on Anderson was using my phone and could only see the left side of the screen.

[Heathrow fox]

Just now, Facecloth said:

Yeah my mistake on Anderson was using my phone and could only see the left side of the screen.

It was very recently tbf

[Strokes]

8 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

The Labour = Working Class job argument doesn’t really wash when Wakefield has a Tory MP whose previously worked for the UN. 

I’m not sure that particular point washes, the point isn’t that they won’t vote for career politicians. It’s that the lines between Labour and conservatives have become blurred because of it.

Wakefield is the perfect example of the point @Heathrow fox was trying to make. Even if his figures may or may not be a tad off.

Mary Creagh, left education and went straight to work for the European Parliament in Brussels.

 

If you are from Wakefield and voted Labour all your life, you are now splitting hairs between Imran Khan and Mary Creagh. At least Imran is from Wakefield and backed Brexit like 66% of them. What reasons do you have to re-elect Mary?