Guest Bert Fill Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 2 minutes ago, splinterdream said: I've seen different arguments regarding the battles in the US, but I'm sorry British black people are not being killed by police in the UK Erm, okay...
Blue-fox Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 Just now, Bert Fill said: Forgive me (I’m struggling to remember who’s saying what on here), but are you posting this to show that more white people are killed by police or that a wildly disproportionate number of black people are? I was just replying to the fact that you said about the Black British population in the UK get killed by the police as what happens in the US. I couldn’t find the most up to date information so I do apologise on that but I really don’t see how you could compare the UK to the US on this.
HankMarvin Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 Maybe they could show their support in another way, arm bands or shoelaces
Popular Post Jobyfox Posted 23 May 2021 Popular Post Posted 23 May 2021 It's interesting that people say that it is ineffective, but I'm just looking through eight pages of debating racism on a football forum. Clearly it's having an effect. 6
Guest Bert Fill Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 2 minutes ago, ARM1968 said: You can’t have opinions because that makes you racist. Of course you can have opinions without being racist. Unless you have racist opinions. That does make you racist.
5waller5 Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 7 minutes ago, Izzy said: I take it you don't frequent Gen Chat that much? Absolutely never - for this very reason!!! 👍😆🍻
shailen Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 I don't think anyone on this thread has justified the booing, which was wrong. But there has to be a debate as to whether the guesture actually has any impact. I'd love to see the media reinforce more stories of ethnic role models doing good in the community. This is the bigger issue for me as newspapers, particularly tabloid papers don't print the most favourable stories of ethnic people and vice versa. This is a large part of how society is influenced or prejudiced.
Mark_w Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 Just now, Blue-fox said: I was just replying to the fact that you said about the Black British population in the UK get killed by the police as what happens in the US. I couldn’t find the most up to date information so I do apologise on that but I really don’t see how you could compare the UK to the US on this. You can surely see from your own screenshot that there's a really serious institutional problem though right?
splinterdream Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 5 minutes ago, Mark_w said: Not everyone in the 1930s/40s was racist by our standards and Churchill wasn't just racist by our standards, he was racist by any standards. Churchill was born in 1874, try having a look at some literature he and others would have been brought up with in the late 19th century, he didn't have the blessing of television or todays literature, he was a product of that period, as was everyone else, Britain didn't experience another race untill the 50's and most of Britain was racist
Guest Bert Fill Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 Just now, Blue-fox said: I was just replying to the fact that you said about the Black British population in the UK get killed by the police as what happens in the US. I couldn’t find the most up to date information so I do apologise on that but I really don’t see how you could compare the UK to the US on this. I wasn’t comparing it in the sense of saying it was similar. I’ve explicitly said that it happens way more in the US (which as far as I can see has structural and ingrained racism issues that go way beyond the situation in the UK), but just that it does happen here too sometimes.
ARM1968 Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 1 minute ago, Mark_w said: It must be nice to be in a position to shrug it off and to care so little that you can. It is and I do. I influence what I can and change what I can if I can. Do you? My brother’s father is from Antigua. I’m white. I live in Wales surrounded by Welsh speakers. I worked in India for a number of years for various charities. I did the same in Boston, USA and Africa. I have seen enough to know it’s better for us all to shrug it off. I’m not playing the game for those who wish to divide us. 1
splinterdream Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, theessexfox said: It really doesn't take that much effort to find shedloads of evidence to the contrary, does it? the government have literally just sanctioned an independent report Edited 23 May 2021 by splinterdream 3
hejammy Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 For those who say... I'm not a racist but.... A) it's run its course B) I don't like the BLM political movement C) anything else really Then educate yourself. The knee isn't about BLM, it's about kicking racism out. The fact that we still have to do a symbolic gesture in 2021 is quite frankly a disgrace. Why do you feel you need to boo because a player is against racism UNLESS you don't want them to make a point against racism. Quite frankly a zero tolerance should apply and anyone seen booing should be kicked out our club never to return. 1
Guest Bert Fill Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 2 minutes ago, splinterdream said: Britain didn't experience another race untill the 50's and most of Britain was racist I’m not an expert, but I’ve read a bit of stuff on British history, and I believe both parts of this may be wrong. The first part certainly is.
Larry_LCFC Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 Mings has taken aim at the Villa fans that booed today. Not just us. I genuniely think fans got so riled by the kneel during lockdown when it did actually support BLM, they are now being vocal about it now they finally have the chance to be. The issue is, the gesture has moved on from the BLM now but people cannot let it go, either through lack of awareness or pure pig headedness.
LCFCbwoi Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 2 minutes ago, splinterdream said: the government have literally just sanctioned an independent report By people who have already said they don’t feel Britain has a systemic racism issue. It would be like getting a Leicester fan to pick their team of the season 😂
splinterdream Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 7 minutes ago, LCFCbwoi said: Maybe go out into that city where white people are the ‘minority’ and the team you support, and see if Britain has a problem with racism. You’re incredibly naive if you don’t think their is one and it’s probably best to speak to people with more experience on the issue. i've been going into the homes of the general public, several homes a day for the past 28 years, i do talk to people, i do feel i'm qualified to have an opinon thanks, infact i went one step further, i spoke to black people online to get their opinion, i spoke to a black girl i went to school with to talk to her about it, i feel i do what i can to be as knowledgable as possible 1
Mark_w Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 2 minutes ago, splinterdream said: Churchill was born in 1874, try having a look at some literature he and others would have been brought up with in the late 19th century, he didn't have the blessing of television or todays literature, he was a product of that period, as was everyone else, Britain didn't experience another race untill the 50's and most of Britain was racist I did a history degree, I'm well aware of the context of the time. He was not a mild racist or imperialist, who went along with it because it's what he was brought up with but wasn't really bothered. He was an extremely passionate supporter of an empire that was commiting attrocities throughout his life and on his orders. You may as well excuse Hitler because he was a product of his time. He was a racist full stop, and an imperialist and we shouldn't celebrate him. We can understand why he believed what he did and did what he did, sure, but we absolutely should still condemn it and acknowledge it for what it was. 2
The People's Hero Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 (edited) This is a bit of a tangent; so apologies; but I think it needs saying. I believe virtue signalling is sometimes completely unhelpful. To use LGBTQ (sorry if acronym wrong) as an example we'll all be familiar with as its such a visible VS..The addition of the rainbow or its incorporation in to company logos very often just feels like a shameless virtue-signalling cash grab so as not to alienate part of a potential target market. When you read the marketing around it, its all completely wet and wishy washy and I'm not convinced in that particular brand (apologies for pun) of discrimination, that awareness is actually even an issue? The virtue signalling and pretty colours in that example just creates 'noise' and in my opinion probably means the better work being done, or real issues in that space that need attention, get less attention and airspace or whatever. I'm probably clumsily saying this; but we as a society need to want change and make the change; and move the needle from 'corporate opportunity for positive PR' to 'real change for real people'. In this instance; there is too much focus on the actual taking of the knee. What the solution is, I don't know. The fact we are talking about it, shows its got some profile and given a platform for real discussion and then action; but I think we all know the actual taking of the knee in and of itself can change nothing; what needs to now be challenged, is WHAT exactly and directly do we and others do about this? The simple answer is don't be racist and to call out racism where you see it. What really needs to be done though in my own very humble opinion is to challenge and stamp out institutional racism. That is requiring of an absolute huge change and arguably a global effort. Someone posted the Akala interview and I'd encourage a watch of it if you haven't already; but basically; getting football fans not to boo 22 players taking the knee, is not the win here. The win is somehow encouraging entire states and institutions, like the police as one (but far from the only) example. Change anywhere else is good, but really just treating the symptom until the systematic, institutionalised aspect is reformed and that will take serious time (I'm talking generations here). I'm not as eloquent or clear as I'd like to be - but watch the Akala video. If someone cleverer than me can re-link it, I'd be much obliged as I think we have to look at the TOP here and go from there. Edited 23 May 2021 by The People's Hero 2 1
BlueSi13 Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 1 minute ago, Larry_LCFC said: Mings has taken aim at the Villa fans that booed today. Not just us. I genuniely think fans got so riled by the kneel during lockdown when it did actually support BLM, they are now being vocal about it now they finally have the chance to be. The issue is, the gesture has moved on from the BLM now but people cannot let it go, either through lack of awareness or pure pig headedness. Probably because Sky (Comcast) continue to push it vigourously. Though many try there is no separating the knee from BLM.
LCFCbwoi Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 (edited) Mings has been vocal against the boos at Villa Park today. Rio Ferdinand was racially abused at Molineux today. If you think the booing won’t affect black players and how they perceive the fans and maybe even the club, then I think you’re wrong. Could there be discourse about another way to show an anti racism message before the game? Probably yes Do I think fans will boo even if it showed no sign towards ‘BLM’? Almost definitely Edited 23 May 2021 by LCFCbwoi 2
theessexfox Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 8 minutes ago, splinterdream said: the government have literally just sanctioned an independent report Fair, takes a brave one to be on the wind-up on this issue but I'll let you crack on
splinterdream Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 2 minutes ago, Bert Fill said: I’m not an expert, but I’ve read a bit of stuff on British history, and I believe both parts of this may be wrong. The first part certainly is. I'm talking in great numbers, was there another time this happened?
NasPb Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 3 minutes ago, Mark_w said: I did a history degree, I'm well aware of the context of the time. He was not a mild racist or imperialist, who went along with it because it's what he was brought up with but wasn't really bothered. He was an extremely passionate supporter of an empire that was commiting attrocities throughout his life and on his orders. You may as well excuse Hitler because he was a product of his time. He was a racist full stop, and an imperialist and we shouldn't celebrate him. We can understand why he believed what he did and did what he did, sure, but we absolutely should still condemn it and acknowledge it for what it was. Yes exactly. You don't starve millions if Indians and call them animals by accident. In the same sense that we can say, hey, Stalin did in fact help against nazi Germany without justifying his genocides in the Ukraine nor his murderous state, we must then say the same with Churchill and others like him. Churchill can be recognized as having done a good job against the nazis without ignoring who he truthfully was and what crimes against humanity he did.
Blue-fox Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 2 minutes ago, Mark_w said: You can surely see from your own screenshot that there's a really serious institutional problem though right? Nope but maybe I am missing something. Could you explain it? (Hope that doesn’t sound sarcastic)
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