hejammy Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 Just now, BlueSi13 said: Probably because Sky (Comcast) continue to push it vigourously. Though many try there is no separating the knee from BLM. Why? Only those who chose to can't seperate it when everyone else can and understands the cause. Let's face it, honestly those booing today are not because they have an issue with BLM or the movement has "run its course". It is because they are racist. I didn't expect there to be many in our fan base but I'm more disappointed in this than the fall out of the top 4.
Blue-fox Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 10 minutes ago, Bert Fill said: I wasn’t comparing it in the sense of saying it was similar. I’ve explicitly said that it happens way more in the US (which as far as I can see has structural and ingrained racism issues that go way beyond the situation in the UK), but just that it does happen here too sometimes. Oh I thought you were implying it was on the same level.
Benguin Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 Don't agree with booing it but these kind of gestures do irritate me. I doubt even one racist has stopped being racist off the back of it. 1
NasPb Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 14 minutes ago, ARM1968 said: It is and I do. I influence what I can and change what I can if I can. Do you? My brother’s father is from Antigua. I’m white. I live in Wales surrounded by Welsh speakers. I worked in India for a number of years for various charities. I did the same in Boston, USA and Africa. I have seen enough to know it’s better for us all to shrug it off. I’m not playing the game for those who wish to divide us. What countries in Africa? Just curious because it's a big place haha.
Mark_w Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 21 minutes ago, Blue-fox said: Just now, Blue-fox said: Nope but maybe I am missing something. Could you explain it? (Hope that doesn’t sound sarcastic) Sure. So the percentage of the population is the demographic makeup of the UK. The percentage of deaths in custody is the percentage of people who have died in police custody. Black people make up 3% of the UK Population, but 8% of deaths in police custody are black people. We are talking huge numbers here so it is a statistically significant number we're looking at and it's a pattern that has been going on for a long long time. Basically a direct result of the way society and the police as an institution view black people is leading to a disproportionately large number of black people dying in police custody either because they are killed or because they aren't being taken seriously when they have a medical condition or whatever.
ARM1968 Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, NasPb said: What countries in Africa? Just curious because it's a big place haha. Tanzania, South Africa and Rwanda. India mainly in Tamil Nadu Edited 23 May 2021 by ARM1968 1
The People's Hero Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 1 minute ago, Benguin said: Don't agree with booing it but these kind of gestures do irritate me. I doubt even one racist has stopped being racist off the back of it. Its about awareness and forcing discussion. Ironically, the booing of it puts it more in the news/public 'headspace' and so the actual 'issue' gets discussed more. The fact it irritates you have evoked a 'response' from you; so you've engaged with it. Basically, its doing its job, but its just to raise profile and prompt discussion. In and of itself its quite pointless. Having remembered some of your previous posts, I do suspect you know all this and are trolling. 2
Guest Chocolate Teapot Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 Wolves fan arrested for doing a monkey chant at rio ferdinand. But oh yeah....racism doesn't exist in this country.
Blue-fox Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 3 minutes ago, Mark_w said: Sure. So the percentage of the population is the demographic makeup of the UK. The percentage of deaths in custody is the percentage of people who have died in police custody. Black people make up 3% of the UK Population, but 8% of deaths in police custody are black people. We are talking huge numbers here so it is a statistically significant number we're looking at and it's a pattern that has been going on for a long long time. Basically a direct result of the way society and the police as an institution view black people is leading to a disproportionately large number of black people dying in police custody either because they are killed or because they aren't being taken seriously when they have a medical condition or whatever. But surely 85% of a higher population is more deaths than 8% of 3%? 1
BigGibbo Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 Just now, Benguin said: Don't agree with booing it but these kind of gestures do irritate me. I doubt even one racist has stopped being racist off the back of it. It's not really about stopping racists from being racist, it's about raising awareness that there is a systemic issue that the vast majority of people who aren't racist but have no real experience of the issue need to be aware of before it can be tackled. 2 1
HighPeakFox Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 Since my initial sarcastic comment, I've kept clear of this very difficult subject. I agree with lots of what's been said, not least that racism, although abhorrent, is yet another way to divide, another way for w**kers to hate other human beings. I'll repeat a story I've told before, which I promise is absolutely true. I was in the Kop once, and if my memory serves correctly, we were playing Andy Cole-era Newcastle - it may well have been the first match of the 1994 season - and as a Newcastle attack broke down, or Cole tussled for the ball, he got monkey chanted by our fans. Cole, to his immense credit, put his hands on his hips, looked at us, as if to say 'really, guys?'. Of course the volume went up. Once it died down (and I'm still amazed I had the nerve to do this) I piped up 'Julian is black'. A few dimwits (and they must have been dimwits not to understand the point I was making) went 'eh?'. I said something like 'you cannot abuse their black guy and support ours - make up your minds'. And this is why it's more than 'just' about racism to me - the perpetrators simply didn't understand, because for them, it was pure tribalism and 'meaningless banter' or whatever we'd have called it at the time - they had no concept of hypocrisy or irony. Tossers will pick others out for anything - it is just shocking that different skin colour makes a non-white very noticeable indeed, and thus they are high on the list for the berk who will point and say 'you're not the same as me, therefore I'm going to belittle you'. I get it for speaking without an accent, some get it for being ginger, some for being fat, some for being women, and so on. So for me, it's a deeper, nastier problem than 'just' racism, hideous though racism is.
LCFCbwoi Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 I do find it weird that the players are the ones that are choosing to kneel and these same players are the ones who are saying it’s not a political message? yet we’re supposed to believe that message is being somehow lost on people and they choose to boo because they’re against the ‘political side’ of the message?
The People's Hero Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 Just now, BigGibbo said: It's not really about stopping racists from being racist, it's about raising awareness that there is a systemic issue that the vast majority of people who aren't racist but have no real experience of the issue need to be aware of before it can be tackled. Thanks BigGibbo. Nicely put. 1 1
Brizzle Fox Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 26 minutes ago, Bert Fill said: From what I’ve learned here today the booing is by people who are frustrated at the ineffectiveness of taking the knee in the battle against racism... Ah that makes a lot more sense now. Thanks for that. I thought the people booing were just a bunch of knuckle dragging, racist *****. My faith in human nature is fully restored... 1
Mark_w Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 Just now, Blue-fox said: But surely 85% of a higher population is more deaths than 8% of 3%? Yes. But white people make up 86% of the population. So the deaths of white people in custody is about what we'd expect, it's in line with the demographics of the country. Whereas as a lot more black people are dying in police custody than you would expect. It should be roughly in line with the demographic makeup of the country, and it is with white people. More white people die in police custody. But an individual black person in the UK is much more likely to die in police custody than a white person.
splinterdream Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 5 minutes ago, Mark_w said: I did a history degree, I'm well aware of the context of the time. He was not a mild racist or imperialist, who went along with it because it's what he was brought up with but wasn't really bothered. He was an extremely passionate supporter of an empire that was commiting attrocities throughout his life and on his orders. You may as well excuse Hitler because he was a product of his time. He was a racist full stop, and an imperialist and we shouldn't celebrate him. We can understand why he believed what he did and did what he did, sure, but we absolutely should still condemn it and acknowledge it for what it was. i also studied history at that level with OU, I understand if you are going to make arguments about historical figures, you need to back it up with evidence, and there are arguments for and against various actions and opinions of Churchill based on historical context, these are argued in various books offering differing opinions. If you pick out a celebrated historical figure, you can always find contextual stuff which doesn't sit well by todays standards. The Empire is a humungous subject which can be argued for a long time, but if it wasn't the British, it'd have been Spain or France or Portugal
BlueSi13 Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 2 minutes ago, Mark_w said: Sure. So the percentage of the population is the demographic makeup of the UK. The percentage of deaths in custody is the percentage of people who have died in police custody. Black people make up 3% of the UK Population, but 8% of deaths in police custody are black people. We are talking huge numbers here so it is a statistically significant number we're looking at and it's a pattern that has been going on for a long long time. Basically a direct result of the way society and the police as an institution view black people is leading to a disproportionately large number of black people dying in police custody either because they are killed or because they aren't being taken seriously when they have a medical condition or whatever. So in the last ten years, deaths in police custody: White - 141 Black - 13 Other minority groups - 10 "So, over the last 10 years, a white individual who has been arrested was about 25% more likely to die in custody than a black individual who had been arrested" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363 1
Blue-fox Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 2 minutes ago, Mark_w said: Yes. But white people make up 86% of the population. So the deaths of white people in custody is about what we'd expect, it's in line with the demographics of the country. Whereas as a lot more black people are dying in police custody than you would expect. It should be roughly in line with the demographic makeup of the country, and it is with white people. More white people die in police custody. But an individual black person in the UK is much more likely to die in police custody than a white person. So what you’re saying is it should be 1-1 not 2.5-1?
King of Gipsy Lane Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 1 minute ago, BlueSi13 said: So in the last ten years, deaths in police custody: White - 141 Black - 13 Other minority groups - 10 "So, over the last 10 years, a white individual who has been arrested was about 25% more likely to die in custody than a black individual who had been arrested" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363 But the knee isn’t about police deaths in UK 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Mark_w Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 2 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said: So in the last ten years, deaths in police custody: White - 141 Black - 13 Other minority groups - 10 "So, over the last 10 years, a white individual who has been arrested was about 25% more likely to die in custody than a black individual who had been arrested" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363 Fair enough, but that means we have a problem of black people being massively disproportionately likely to be taken into police custody in the first place. If 3% of the population are black, and 8% of deaths in police custody are black people, then we have a serious institutional racism problem somewhere.
BigGibbo Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 1 minute ago, Blue-fox said: But surely 85% of a higher population is more deaths than 8% of 3%? You're missing the point a bit there. The significant take away from those stats is that 2.5 times more black people per capita are killed in police custody than white people. That to me is statistically significant. 2
hackneyfox Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Izzy said: I think the video of the players talking before games (the one with Wes, Rashford, Henderson etc) gives total clarity on what taking the knee is all about now. Found it. Doesn't get much clearer than that. Edited 23 May 2021 by hackneyfox
splinterdream Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 13 minutes ago, theessexfox said: Fair, takes a brave one to be on the wind-up on this issue but I'll let you crack on okay well if you disagree with Tony Sewell, a black man himself, and the report that said Britain isn't institutionally racist, then thats fine. I know David Lammy and Dan Butler disagree with the report 1
theessexfox Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/jan/15/black-women-in-the-uk-four-times-more-likely-to-die-in-pregnancy-or-childbirth https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/drug-dealing-sentences-disparity-black-white-b1793124.html https://fullfact.org/economy/job-applicants-ethnic-minority-sounding-names-are-less-likely-be-called-interview/
theessexfox Posted 23 May 2021 Posted 23 May 2021 1 minute ago, splinterdream said: okay well if you disagree with Tony Sewell, a black man himself, and the report that said Britain isn't institutionally racist, then thats fine. I know David Lammy and Dan Butler disagree with the report I don't think Tony Sewell being a black man makes him the definitive voice on the presence of institutional racism - his opinion is dwarfed by those of countless other black people in the UK I've seen write or talk on the issue. 2
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