Who do you want Jan 2022?

[FoxyLeon]

Soyuncu, Maddison and Ricardo have all shown their quality at the club over the years.....

 

So tell me, why are we replacing those, and not the manager, who has been unable to get the best out of them?

 

We have a very good squad, which will only get better as long as we stick to the 'only 1 sale per summer maximum' policy.

 

The more Rodgers has got his grips on the club, and the more trust Top has put into him, the worse we have become.

From him wanting to sign players that have 'lost their way', to wanting to turn a very good holding midfielder in Soumare into an 'attacking midfielder', it's only heading in one way, and that's into decline if we're not careful.

[Dahnsouff]

2 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

Yep he's been in hot water ever since.

Its no wonder he has been a bit off the boil, poor fella broke up with partner not long ago I think, his head must be scrambled

[Ric Flair]

8 minutes ago, FoxyLeon said:

Soyuncu, Maddison and Ricardo have all shown their quality at the club over the years.....

 

So tell me, why are we replacing those, and not the manager, who has been unable to get the best out of them?

 

We have a very good squad, which will only get better as long as we stick to the 'only 1 sale per summer maximum' policy.

 

The more Rodgers has got his grips on the club, and the more trust Top has put into him, the worse we have become.

From him wanting to sign players that have 'lost their way', to wanting to turn a very good holding midfielder in Soumare into an 'attacking midfielder', it's only heading in one way, and that's into decline if we're not careful.

Rodgers has also shown his quality over the years has he not? He got the best out of Soyuncu and Maddison, Ricardo was already very good here prior to Rodgers arrival but since his injury he is a shadow of his former self. There is a debate about at what point its the manager mainly at fault here and only a change in manager will rectify this rather than appreciating that the manager may need to implement an overhaul in order to regain his effectiveness in getting the best out of a team.

 

It's a fine line, we've seen plenty of successful managers at clubs then decline, is it due to the players tailing off through a lack of motivation/boredom/wanting a new challenge or is it the manager operating differently and causing an adverse reaction? Well past history has proven that managers can turn it around but they likely need to overhaul the squad and also that changing manager can give a new lease of life to a tired and laboured squad. It's about ascertaining where we currently are. I think we do need an overhaul but I'm not simply saying Rodgers isn't the cause of some of this or shouldn't potentially come under the spotlight as to whether get ran his course here but either way there are several players I think we will move on to freshen things up and that ought to help.

 

Regarding Soumare, he's not a holding midfielder, not in the same manner as Ndidi or Kante. He's a deep lying central midfielder who's prowess is getting on the ball and progressing it forward. Rodgers may see the potential for him to be the powerful box to box type midfielder we don't really have, rather than moving him from being combative and part of a double pivot in to some sort of attacking midfielder, so I think you're exaggerating there.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

35 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Its no wonder he has been a bit off the boil, poor fella broke up with partner not long ago I think, his head must be scrambled

Understandable to see why he's not putting all of his eggs in one basket and signing the contract.

[foxinsocks]

42 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Think you are dead wrong, as I think Ricardo would have been sold last season if were not still unfit. He has been here almost 3 1/2 years, so hardly soon.

When Ricardo arrive I thought he was the best player to come into the EPL that season (maybe i was biased). He needs coaching (to avoid leaving too much space at the back ... though amarty always covers) and to refind the attacking edge.  I hope he stays a lot longer.

[Dahnsouff]

35 minutes ago, foxinsocks said:

When Ricardo arrive I thought he was the best player to come into the EPL that season (maybe i was biased). He needs coaching (to avoid leaving too much space at the back ... though amarty always covers) and to refind the attacking edge.  I hope he stays a lot longer.

He is great, yet to recapture his best form, but great. I was not implying he should have been sold because he was poor, just that as his stock was high pre-inury, he would of been a natural sale in our way of operating, especially after bringing in Castagne who is also great  

[Genesis1]

5 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

This is probably more a rant about what's likely to need to happen in the summer, but some of it may start to occur in January.

 

I think it's fair to say we are on the verge of a significant transition, it's needs to be proactive rather than reactive as we've seen many a club in our situation with a largely successful core squad who've been together for several years but seem to be on the downturn either in ability or because they want a new challenge. We have to get it right, keeping players in either category and their value declining even further will be difficult to recover from for a club like ours.

 

We've also been in the position where its felt very difficult to bring new players in that are earmarked as immediate starters and essentially demote our successful XI to the bench, we've not really done that under Rodgers and although on paper we have a bigger depth to our squad it's no surprise we might be regressing as opposed to improving the longer he's been here.

 

So where do we start. If we accept that there's going to be several players departing and the majority of those players who are first choice then it feels like we'll still have the issue of replacing those but still not having a better overall starting XI unless the replacements are of a better calibre than those departing which won't be easy. 

 

My answer to this is that we also need to move on a few other players and take a bit of a chance that bringing in 5-6 new players to go straight in to the first team will work quite quickly and not require more changes to playing staff and potentially the managerial regime.

 

I think Tielemans, Ricardo and Soyuncu are off. The only one I'm really devastated about given the performance levels of 2 of them in the last year is Tielemans. He will be a massive loss and its a head scratcher to work out how we replace him, let alone be of the mindset that we try and improve in the process. Soyuncu I think is under performing due to a bit of a dip in confidence but him not having signed or possibly even offered a new deal since he joined us in 2018 must be a factor. I think he's likely to be toying with moving on but the longer he under performs the less likely he is of that move being a step up. I'd still like us to keep him but I'm not so sure he will be here next season. Ricardo I think is done here, wouldn't be surprised to see him go in January if any of our main players were to depart mid season, I also don't think he'd be a huge loss any longer which is crazy to say but we've had to cope without him for the best part of a season and a half.

 

Given their contract situation I think we'll be fortunate to get more than £50m for Tielemans, £25m for Soyuncu and £15m for Ricardo. I'd put it more like a combined fee of £75-80m. Is that enough, with possibly another £20-30m transfer budget in the summer to do the surgery to our first team and squad to give Rodgers the platform to transform this side and see him regain his effectiveness?

 

I don't think so, not necessarily purely because of finances but because there will be a couple of players that will still be very important players in our side but whom I believe are hindering us. I can't believe I'm saying this as I've been one of his biggest fans but it's time we moved Maddison on in the summer and Perez if we could tempt someone to pay us a modest fee. 

 

With £150-160m and the best part of 400k a week in wages saved I think we could rebuild a young and dynamic squad but our recruitment model would need to be rebooted to what it was in the Puel regime rather than the Rodgers one. I'm being a bit unfair there as both periods has seen some fantastic signings and a few pieces of dross but there's been a shift as we try and cement ourselves as a European chasing club each year from young and unproven players at this level but whom are hugely promising, to youngish players who have already perhaps had that stepping stone and got good experience. I don't think it's made us any better, the sorts of signings I'm talking about are Perez, Praet, Vestergaard, maybe even Castagne.

 

As its unlikely we'll be in Europe next season the squad size won't need to be quite as large. We possibly need 2 new CB's if Soyuncu does go and Vestergaard continues to prove he's not good enough but for now I'd be content with one. Should that be another young defender or someone like Tarkowski, in the long run we need both but we could get Tarkowski on a free in the summer with a huge signing on fee but still way less than we'd pay for someone as good.

 

We need a left footed left back as Justin will move across to right back when Ricardo departs and that lad should be Owen Wijndal from AZ. How he is still there when all their other stars have been picked off I don't know as he's been arguably their best player and the one most recognised by the senior Dutch team, he tends to start most games for Holland. He's class, and although the same age as Luke Thomas he's a beast of a player and we've got to be serious about not just replenishing but improving. Only negative is who his agent is, its Raiola and his contract is up in 2023 so we'll be lining pickets but do it already. Overall cost £20m I reckon.

 

How do we replace Youri Tielemans? It's so difficult, I thought Jean Pyrre at Gremio was the closest player to Tielemans in style that I could find but I doubt he's as good. The player I'm convinced will get back to his best and would be a success in England is Donny Van de Beek, Man Utd have a history of young players flopping and going on to not only regain their promise but improve significantly. He'd not be cheap but we could get him for £35m and add ons I reckon, they won't get that for him from abroad when they sell him in the summer. 

 

That would leave around £100m to go out and get a next level ACM to replace Maddison and a left footed right winger, possibly even add 1 other ACM / utility player in there if possible as we've been so light in creativity.

 

ACM - Sofiane Diop at Monaco or Florian Wirtz from Leverkusen. Let's not fcuk about, with serious money at our disposal we should take the opportunity to snap up one of Europe's best young ACM's. Without European football it would seem unlikely but we've built up a great reputation as the club to go to as the platform to the PL and the perfect environment to work towards a mega move. Either would cost north of £40m but we'd have the money.

 

Ludovic Blas or Fabio Carvalho would be the low cost options I'd love us to sign, but in addition to one of the above.

 

Finally, a left footed right winger. Blas does play that role too, but he's more of an ACM and there's room for 2 anyway. Madueke was the dream in the summer, he's going to be leaving PSV for sure and the only thing that's making me consider others as well is he's hit a poor patch as well as get injured. If he doesn't return to form by the end of the season then I'd perhaps be looking elsewhere with £40-50m at our disposal. The one standout player this season in that position is Anthony at Ajax. He's a devastating player, so strong and relentless. He'd be the one for me if Madueke isn't in fine fettle, I can't see Ajax rejecting £50m either.

 

So there you go, international break nonsense.

 

Tarkowski on a free

Owen Wijndal £20m

Donny Van de Beek £35m

Sofiane Diop / Florian Wirtz £45m

Ludovic Blas / Fabio Carvalho £10m

Madueke £30m / Anthony £45m

 

Max total outlay £155m

 

Tielemans/Soyuncu/Ricardo - £75m

Maddison - £40m

Perez - £5m

Praet - £10m

22/23 funds - £25m

 

Projected total income £155m

 

RIC YER TEAS FCUKIN READY

 

 

 

 

I was reading this and all I could think off was when I played fifa and sold Messi and Neymar to rebuild the squad. Sadly it didn't work out 

 

I don't think Ricardo would go as he seems happy and doesn't seem to be linked elsewhere but Soyuncu yes, what happens when Evans leaves. Back four of Justin, Forfana, Tarkowski and Castange for a few years works for me.

 

Additionally, I think we'll have a much easier time finding a like for like replacement for Tielemans that we did Mahrez.

[An Away Move]

When we get Fofana and Justin back on all cylinders that will be the point to judge whether Rodgers is getting the best out of the squad because losing those two stops us operating at 100% of our potential and strengthens how defence interfaces into midfield and attack.

[sacreblueits442]

2 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

He is great, yet to recapture his best form, but great. I was not implying he should have been sold because he was poor, just that as his stock was high pre-inury, he would of been a natural sale in our way of operating, especially after bringing in Castagne who is also great  

...bringing in Castagne was a call that was made that has complicated instead of clarified a part of our defense!!!

  If he was acquired to be the replacement of Ricardo then the injury picked up by Ricardo could not have come at a worse time.

  Castagne for the left side always seemed as a stop gap measure and he was earmarked for the right. Castagne came to play in a team in one position and not to be moved around to accommodate our short comings. 

 We now have two quality players who are ready made for the right and neither player has it nailed down and that does not help with the balance and any continuity.

[An Sionnach]

9 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...bringing in Castagne was a call that was made that has complicated instead of clarified a part of our defense!!!

  If he was acquired to be the replacement of Ricardo then the injury picked up by Ricardo could not have come at a worse time.

  Castagne for the left side always seemed as a stop gap measure and he was earmarked for the right. Castagne came to play in a team in one position and not to be moved around to accommodate our short comings. 

 We now have two quality players who are ready made for the right and neither player has it nailed down and that does not help with the balance and any continuity.

We have arguably five right backs in Pereira, Castagne, Justin , Daley-Campbell and even Amartey and two left backs in Thomas and Bertrand. When Justin returns we have to use two of them in the same positions in every PL match if we are going to solidify our defence. Our defensive chopping and changing is a major problem.

[MPH]

To be honest, I don’t know who , that would be within our financial reach, we could get who’d improve our squad. I don’t think lack of talent / skill is our problem atm.

Edited 10 November 2021 by MPH

[Stadt]

Hlozek

https://fbref.com/en/players/5521f419/Adam-Hlozek

 

 

Plays anywhere across a front 3. Tall, quick, great striker of the ball, nice control.

 

Get in before West Ham do.

[frany104]

32 minutes ago, Stadt said:

Hlozek

https://fbref.com/en/players/5521f419/Adam-Hlozek

 

 

Plays anywhere across a front 3. Tall, quick, great striker of the ball, nice control.

 

Get in before West Ham do.

He looks class in that video. Strikes the ball cleanly and always making a yard for himself to shoot. Looks two footed too. Any rumoured price tags?

[moore_94]

33 minutes ago, Stadt said:

Hlozek

https://fbref.com/en/players/5521f419/Adam-Hlozek

 

 

Plays anywhere across a front 3. Tall, quick, great striker of the ball, nice control.

 

Get in before West Ham do.

The guy who just bought a stake in West Ham owns Sparta Prague doesn't he?

 

With the rest of the Czech connection it is so obvious he will end up there which is a shame

[Stadt]

1 hour ago, frany104 said:

He looks class in that video. Strikes the ball cleanly and always making a yard for himself to shoot. Looks two footed too. Any rumoured price tags?

Sling £10m(ish) at them and an 18 month loan? 
 

They’d be hoping for more but Slavia sold Sima for < 10m iirc

[gerrytaggart]

20 hours ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

No he lost it with Ricardo after he was found stealing boiled eggs from the training ground ground. There's been cracks in their relationship ever since.

Why are they keeping eggs on the ground?

[NasPb]

Dani alves available, he's never played in the prem.... 😂😂

[NasPb]

We should have went in for john egan instead of Vestergaard, solid and much better than lanky jan

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, NasPb said:

We should have went in for john egan instead of Vestergaard, solid and much better than lanky jan

We should have gone for Mattias Ginter at Borussia Monchengladbach. Contract up in 2022 as well. Hope we go for him, he's always been no nonsense and very reliable, like a Jonny Evans type.

[Foxes96]

21 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

We should have gone for Mattias Ginter at Borussia Monchengladbach. Contract up in 2022 as well. Hope we go for him, he's always been no nonsense and very reliable, like a Jonny Evans type.

Would be a quality signing, regular German international as well. Looks like Barca might be interested but would be a real coup

[volpeazzurro]

On 10/11/2021 at 14:08, Dahnsouff said:

Poaching, no wonder he is in trouble.

Unfortunately, coming back too soon after injury left him a little undercooked. 

[volpeazzurro]

On 10/11/2021 at 14:28, Ric Flair said:

Rodgers has also shown his quality over the years has he not? He got the best out of Soyuncu and Maddison, Ricardo was already very good here prior to Rodgers arrival but since his injury he is a shadow of his former self. There is a debate about at what point its the manager mainly at fault here and only a change in manager will rectify this rather than appreciating that the manager may need to implement an overhaul in order to regain his effectiveness in getting the best out of a team.

 

It's a fine line, we've seen plenty of successful managers at clubs then decline, is it due to the players tailing off through a lack of motivation/boredom/wanting a new challenge or is it the manager operating differently and causing an adverse reaction? Well past history has proven that managers can turn it around but they likely need to overhaul the squad and also that changing manager can give a new lease of life to a tired and laboured squad. It's about ascertaining where we currently are. I think we do need an overhaul but I'm not simply saying Rodgers isn't the cause of some of this or shouldn't potentially come under the spotlight as to whether get ran his course here but either way there are several players I think we will move on to freshen things up and that ought to help.

 

Regarding Soumare, he's not a holding midfielder, not in the same manner as Ndidi or Kante. He's a deep lying central midfielder who's prowess is getting on the ball and progressing it forward. Rodgers may see the potential for him to be the powerful box to box type midfielder we don't really have, rather than moving him from being combative and part of a double pivot in to some sort of attacking midfielder, so I think you're exaggerating there.

Why do some managers get a player that can be seen to do something very well, hence they buy them, only to try and get them to perform other duties?

 

Occasionally like Wenger with Henry it works well, more often than not though I just suspect that it's a vanity project for the manager.

 

Rodgers has tried unsuccessfully to turn Ricardo and Castagne from fullbacks into wingbacks, Castagne and Ndidi as cover centre halves when there were alternatives, Perez into a winger and now Soumare? Why not just play them all in their preferred positions, whatever the formation and just see if the performance of the team as a whole improves. If you have at least 3 players on the pitch at the same time not operating to their full capabilities at Premiership level, it might just be part of the reason for poor performances. 

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, volpeazzurro said:

Why do some managers get a player that can be seen to do something very well, hence they buy them, only to try and get them to perform other duties?

 

Occasionally like Wenger with Henry it works well, more often than not though I just suspect that it's a vanity project for the manager.

 

Rodgers has tried unsuccessfully to turn Ricardo and Castagne from fullbacks into wingbacks, Castagne and Ndidi as cover centre halves when there were alternatives, Perez into a winger and now Soumare? Why not just play them all in their preferred positions, whatever the formation and just see if the performance of the team as a whole improves. If you have at least 3 players on the pitch at the same time not operating to their full capabilities at Premiership level, it might just be part of the reason for poor performances. 

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of doing it for the sake of it but can see the temptation as coaches to try and stroke their ego.

[st albans fox]

2 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

Why do some managers get a player that can be seen to do something very well, hence they buy them, only to try and get them to perform other duties?

 

Occasionally like Wenger with Henry it works well, more often than not though I just suspect that it's a vanity project for the manager.

 

Rodgers has tried unsuccessfully to turn Ricardo and Castagne from fullbacks into wingbacks, Castagne and Ndidi as cover centre halves when there were alternatives, Perez into a winger and now Soumare? Why not just play them all in their preferred positions, whatever the formation and just see if the performance of the team as a whole improves. If you have at least 3 players on the pitch at the same time not operating to their full capabilities at Premiership level, it might just be part of the reason for poor performances. 

Castagne who plays wing back for the no 1 international team in world football and also for his previous club side in Italy ?  
 

needs must sometimes. I’m sure the manager would like to have his first choice players available to play his preferred formation at all times.  We aren’t privy to the ins and outs etc etc in the club - I’m sure there are good reasons for the coaches making the calls that they do 

[volpeazzurro]

14 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Castagne who plays wing back for the no 1 international team in world football and also for his previous club side in Italy ?  
 

needs must sometimes. I’m sure the manager would like to have his first choice players available to play his preferred formation at all times.  We aren’t privy to the ins and outs etc etc in the club - I’m sure there are good reasons for the coaches making the calls that they do 

Firstly, I think someone put on here that out of 17 appearances he'd made at that time for Belgium, only 3 were on the left, but I haven't checked that. Also it was reported that part of the problem he had at his last club was that he really didn't like playing on the left. 

 

Whilst I agree with your 'needs must' comment, particularly when you're down to the bones with injuries, there's a big difference between playing left fullback and left wingback. If you're a right fullback by nature, to have to play left wing back must be that much harder. My submission would be that it's been very rare we've had a 'needs must' situation here for him to play wing back at all.

 

Unlike you, I'm not sure coaches have 'good reason's' for making these judgement, more that we just give them the benefit of the doubt. I would suggest in Rodger's case, some of these 'good reasons' have backfired on him terribly. 

Edited 13 November 2021 by volpeazzurro