Ukraine

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, gerblod said:

I'm well aware of the first situation and have been since she announced her retirement.

 

Of the second issue, reliance on gas, the German government have taken difficult decisions which will present challenges to the German people and their economy and hence their standard of living.

They are still buying the gas, as is the UK.

[The Year Of The Fox]

 

[SpacedX]

10 minutes ago, The Fox Covert said:

As far as I can see Instagram and Facebook are still accessible in Russia. I have quite a few Russians on my Instagram account and one of them in particular regularly visits each time I post. Internet social media has quietly become a game-changer for Russians who are very curious about the West. I tend to keep politics on my personal Facebook account rather than Instagram, which I use to cultivate a following for my art. But common ownership makes it easy to follow from one platform to the other. I expect they rather like it that I and the rest of us are free to say whatever we like about the likes of Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Priti Patel without the fear of a bunch of uniformed thugs bursting through the front door in the middle of the night and getting bundled into the boot of a black Volga and left to rot in a grim Lubyanka god knows where.

A continual source of amusement to me are the Russian apologists in the West that take their democratic freedom of speech and liberty for granted, whilst completely ignoring the current and historical persecution, repression and human rights abuses of the regime that they defend. 

[The Year Of The Fox]

Just now, Line-X said:

A continual source of amusement to me are the Russian apologists in the West that take their democratic freedom of speech and liberty for granted, whilst completely ignoring the current and historical persecution, repression and human rights abuses of the regime that they defend. 

That was the same with the Iraq war in 2003

[casablancas]

Lithuania now to rename the street where the Moscow embassy sits. It’s now to be named ‘Ukraine Heroes Street’ hahahaaaaa

[surrifox]

2 minutes ago, casablancas said:

Lithuania now to rename the street where the Moscow embassy sits. It’s now to be named ‘Ukraine Heroes Street’ hahahaaaaa

with the implied threat that any mail incorrectly addressed will end up undelivered and in landfill 

[blabyboy]

3 hours ago, gerblod said:

Can you back up your statement with hard proof that she appeased Putin?

For me your "appeasement" is more accurately reflected as statesmanship. The US, UK and France didn't actively act to redress the annexation of the Crimea, so why pick up on her leadership in particular?

 

Various UK governments have allowed dubious Russians the freedom of London's financial markets in which to launder vast amounts of money. For me that's morally far worse than attempting to retain a working relationship with one of the most dangerous states on the globe.

 

For forty-five years West Germany lived under the threat of becoming the battlefield where NATO and the USSR would fight out the land component of WW3. Its successive governments were well aware of the carnage inflicted on the German people in their advance on Berlin in 1945. Just as Putin now is prepared to destroy the Ukraine's infrastructure, he would have cheerfully done the same to Germany (and Poland et al).

Germany is not in the same political/economic situation as the UK. It has closer trading links and a dependency on Russian fuel. I suspect Merkel was balancing the needs of the German people by not provoking Putin. That's not appeasement - it's diplomacy.

 

 

I think for me, when the previous invasion occurred in Crimea, Merkel was the only EU leader not calling for any sanctions at that time and then engaged with persuading others that that was not a path to tread. She has consistently sought to water down the EU's attempts to deal with Putin and had a strong leverage point as Germany is the most powerful member of the EU. I think you raise a good point that it could be called Statesmanship through the art of diplomacy much as one man's guerilla fighter is another man's terrorist, so it is fine that we disagree on this.

 

To the rest of your point, you will note that I said she was 'part' of the appeasement and not the whole. I would agree with you about Johnson et al and their roles in the same appeasement of Putin. 

 

I would respectfully disagree on your last point:

Quote

Germany is not in the same political/economic situation as the UK. It has closer trading links and a dependency on Russian fuel. I suspect Merkel was balancing the needs of the German people by not provoking Putin. That's not appeasement - it's diplomacy.

Germany had put itself into that position by various economic policies and as Chancellor at the time, those decisions rest with her. Germany had no leverage against Putin, and Putin can do what he wants for fear that he can 'turn the gas tap off'. I think she had followed a policy of appeasement with Putin that forgave his aggressive actions in return for ensuring that Germany maintained it's supply of gas and oil - that is appeasement to my mind. Perhaps it was the case, that she thought she was closer to him than any other EU leader and that she could 'turn' or at least keep him on side through the decisions she made and influenced elsewhere, but they only seem to have encouraged him further on his ambitions.

 

Perhaps we can agree to disagree.

[SpacedX]

I was thinking yesterday about Edward Snowden who as I briefly mentioned has been granted permanent residence of Russia and subsequently joined the board of the Freedom of the Press Foundation in 2014 and became its president in 2016. The Foundation aims to ‘protect, defend, and empower’ public-interest journalism in the 21st century' - in a metric ton of irony, he brands himself "People's Hero" sorry, "public defender". What the hell does he make of today's broadcast?

 

I am tempted to draw parallels with Kim Philby who following defection, was appointed by the KGB's Active Measures Department to manufacture fabricated documents working from genuine unclassified and public CIA or US Department of State documents, he would insert paragraphs which changed the narrative regarding US plans. The KGB would stamp the documents “top secret” and then disseminate them. For the Soviets, Philby's verisimilitude was invaluable, ensuring the correct use of nuanced and diplomatic terminology and even the addition of idiomatic English phrases was incorporated into their disinformation efforts to create the illusion of authenticity. 

 

It's hard to imagine that Snowden's knowledge hasn't similarly be weaponised. Apparently, he's very happy in Russia. His wife followed him from Hawaii after his detainment in Moscow. Like Philby, it's a myth that he has any regrets and the west perpetuated the belief that the latter had succumbed to alcoholic destitution and was derided and ostracised as a traitor amongst self-respecting Russians. He was given a hero's funeral, and posthumously decorated by the State. Apparently, one of Philby's few sources of irritation was Leonid Brezhnev. One has to wonder what Edward Snowden makes of the increasingly oppressive Putin regime and the recent silencing of independent news outlets. 

[Jon the Hat]

12 minutes ago, Line-X said:

I was thinking yesterday about Edward Snowden who as I briefly mentioned has been granted permanent residence of Russia and subsequently joined the board of the Freedom of the Press Foundation in 2014 and became its president in 2016. The Foundation aims to ‘protect, defend, and empower’ public-interest journalism in the 21st century' - in a metric ton of irony, he brands himself "People's Hero" sorry, "public defender". What the hell does he make of today's broadcast?

 

I am tempted to draw parallels with Kim Philby who following defection, was appointed by the KGB's Active Measures Department to manufacture fabricated documents working from genuine unclassified and public CIA or US Department of State documents, he would insert paragraphs which changed the narrative regarding US plans. The KGB would stamp the documents “top secret” and then disseminate them. For the Soviets, Philby's verisimilitude was invaluable, ensuring the correct use of nuanced and diplomatic terminology and even the addition of idiomatic English phrases was incorporated into their disinformation efforts to create the illusion of authenticity. 

 

It's hard to imagine that Snowden's knowledge hasn't similarly be weaponised. Apparently, he's very happy in Russia. His wife followed him from Hawaii after his detainment in Moscow. Like Philby, it's a myth that he has any regrets and the west perpetuated the belief that the latter had succumbed to alcoholic destitution and was derided and ostracised as a traitor amongst self-respecting Russians. He was given a hero's funeral, and posthumously decorated by the State. Apparently, one of Philby's few sources of irritation was Leonid Brezhnev. One has to wonder what Edward Snowden makes of the increasingly oppressive Putin regime and the recent silencing of independent news outlets. 

He made his bed, he may lie in it.  

[The Fox Covert]

42 minutes ago, casablancas said:

Lithuania now to rename the street where the Moscow embassy sits. It’s now to be named ‘Ukraine Heroes Street’ hahahaaaaa

I would love this if it is true. Live in hope.

[Leicesterpool]

15 hours ago, whoareyaaa said:

If he does get control of Ukraine then starts moving into another country it is most defiantly a replay of what Hitler done, I don't see how he gets control and is allowed to return to normal.. surely this is only heading one way? they are blowing the country to bits what is he going to do build a whole new city? unlikely .. just doesn't make sense.

Cost and time to rebuild the damage, plus no Ukraine's would want to return under the rule of Putin. I can imagine, he wants to turn Ukraine into another Belarus and build army basis around the country near the borders of possibly Moldova and Romania. Ready for his phase two, whenever that shall happen. 

[SpacedX]

40 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

He made his bed, he may lie in it.  

At the same time, he may be very comfortable. Would be nice to know whether he's losing any sleep over his past and the way that the country is going. 

[String fellow]

On Sky News today, the sight of those children getting off the trains on the Polish border reminded me of the Kindertransport from 1938-40, which involved Jewish children escaping from the tyranny of Hitler, before he closed their escape route and murdered them all. Putin should be utterly ashamed of himself. 

Edited 3 March 2022 by String fellow

[SpacedX]

12 hours ago, Joe90lcfc said:

 

[casablancas]

The humanitarian crisis and the impact this is having on the Ukrainian people is really starting to hurt me. Sigh. This is going to be horrendous see it play out. 

Edited 3 March 2022 by casablancas
Didn’t want the thread closing.

[The Horse's Mouth]

4 minutes ago, casablancas said:

This is really starting to **** me up. I’m a nurse and sitting by and watching this is actually ****ing hurting me. I have covid so can't work… all I see is this. But I want to see it, I get no enjoyment from it, pure horror and a loathing if I’m honest. I actually feel changed by it. My screen time is up 80 fuxking percent. I have asked work to release me to go over the Poland … they say no. I am smoking more weed than ever. I know we can’t go in but we have to do more. This is only going to get worse and it’s going to be broadcast, for us all to watch and not be able to (have the balls to) do **** all about. Sigh. 

Maybe cut the drugs and you won't be getting so paranoid 

[casablancas]

Just now, The Horse's Mouth said:

Maybe cut the drugs and you won't be getting so paranoid 

Lol I’m not paranoid. I’m upset mate and it hurts to just see it. But your not wrong. I’m gonna edit before i set this off and it closes. 

Edited 3 March 2022 by casablancas

[Guesty]

 

[SpacedX]

The International Criminal Court (ICC) has received and unprecedented and record series of war crime referrals from thirty nine countries. The investigation is currently underway so that evidence can be immediately gathered and preserved. @Heathrow fox - presumably the indiscriminate targeting of civilian and residential areas is entirely the fault of NATO too? 

[Joe90lcfc]

I find it so cowardly how we/the west can’t help with military back up, meaning more then just supplying weapons, Russia  shelling the city’s killing 100s of civilians is a disgrace 

[urban.spaceman]

1 minute ago, Joe90lcfc said:

I find it so cowardly how we/the west can’t help with military back up, meaning more then just supplying weapons, Russia  shelling the city’s killing 100s of civilians is a disgrace 

Any active involvement would give Putin justification to start WW3. 

[Joe90lcfc]

1 minute ago, urban.spaceman said:

Any active involvement would give Putin justification to start WW3. 

Which he will loose, I just find it staggering we’re the line is set they advance into the next country west and it does justify a ww3, but we will just leave Ukraine to get blitzed 

[MPH]

5 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Any active involvement would give Putin justification to start WW3. 

 

i still don’t think he’d do that. His whole focus is to further the Russian cause- it would be destroyed in retaliation 

[Shane]

2 minutes ago, Joe90lcfc said:

Which he will loose, I just find it staggering we’re the line is set they advance into the next country west and it does justify a ww3, but we will just leave Ukraine to get blitzed 

We all lose. WW3 will be nuclear and WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones. 

[Joe90lcfc]

1 minute ago, Shane said:

We all lose. WW3 will be nuclear and WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones. 

I honestly don’t think anyone will have the bollocks for nuclear warfare in our life time, but I know it’s still to much of a risk to take, I mean even if Putin demanded to be the first to start it I think there will be to many In his own team that wouldn’t agree