Who is at fault here? Manager or The Owners

[sacreblueits442]

16 minutes ago, Guy said:

Yep, then they'll probably try for stadium expansion before investment in the team! That's all well and good when the team is in a good place, playing well and riding high but not so great if we do indeed end up back in the Championship next season!

...the owners can't drop £100m into the club to acquire players, it goes against FFP!!!

  We needed to have raised that money through commercial enterprises in order to introduce that money to bring in players. Dipping their hands into their pockets solves nothing. They are not allowed to buy players with cash introduced from out side of the club.

[Dan]

Rodgers is the first that needs to go 100% and him going might be enough of a silver bullet to keep us up this year - but the longer he doesn't the more it becomes the fault of those above him.

Edited 12 January 2023 by Dan LCFC

[Aus Fox]

Haven’t read the thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned but for me Whelan and Rudkin need to should a fair amount of responsibility.

Im not sure of having a CEO who is not a football person is the right idea. I would say too many people who are not football people in big roles would be the reason for extra security and not understanding the match day experience. This appears to be common in the regular match goers who are not happy with the full enjoyment of going to a game.

Whelan and Rudkin, between them would also be responsible for contracts offered. I would imagine Brendan goes in and says I want X player, then these two make it happen if they can.

So someone like Bertrand, BR goes in and says I want him. They need to be asking is he a key first team player, a squad player or a player for the future. I think it’s clear a player like Bertrand was supposed to be a replacement for Fuchs, playing 5-10 games a season and adding a bit of experience that was lost without Fuchs, Morgan etc.

Those negotiating contracts should have then said for a player who is not a key first team player we’re not paying over £x per week. 
The wage bill should never have been allowed to get up to 90% of turnover or whatever it is and this is both a failure of those who are negotiating contracts and those who are responsible for generating additional income, whether this is more money for sponsorship- as Premier League winners and FA Cup winners and regular participants in Europe, an additional investor, or making use of the KP when games aren’t being played.

They also should know that no matter how good a squad of players is, it will go stale if it’s not continuing to improve with no ideas and competition for places - this again goes back to a CEO not being a football person.

Then we have the manager himself, who is responsible for the tactics we employ, keeping the squad fit, motivated and performing at a high level.
In short there is no one individual at fault for where we find ourselves, but there is a lot of easy fixes that can be done to set us straight again. With so many contracts up at the end of the season it gives us a great chance to learn from these mistakes and bring in new players with better negotiating on the contracts whilst hopefully keeping the squad competitive.

[Guy]

6 hours ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...the owners can't drop £100m into the club to acquire players, it goes against FFP!!!

  We needed to have raised that money through commercial enterprises in order to introduce that money to bring in players. Dipping their hands into their pockets solves nothing. They are not allowed to buy players with cash introduced from out side of the club.

Even with what little we've spent over the past 15 months?!?! Wow!! 

[elvisfmcfly]

15 hours ago, dannythefox said:

It’s not really either of there fault because a lot of it boils down to injuries 

It’s amazing how unlucky Rodgers has been throughout his managerial career injuring and ruining his players, must have crossed a black cat whilst walking under a ladder whilst smashing a mirror whilst seeing one magpie. 

[fox_favourite]

5 minutes ago, elvisfmcfly said:

It’s amazing how unlucky Rodgers has been throughout his managerial career injuring and ruining his players, must have crossed a black cat whilst walking under a ladder whilst smashing a mirror whilst seeing one magpie. 

And that is no coincidence…

[Dan]

11 hours ago, Lambert09 said:

I think the issue is there is a culture of no accountability at the club. 

 

Too nice on the pitch, too nice off it.   If you really look at it, on all aspects we are like this:

• Not enough made of horrific decisions against us, where most big clubs put huge pressure on the officials and make sure they are heard to try and help avoid similar bad officiating go against them again.
• Football is known to be cut throat, yet we let everyone have massive luxurious contracts... are you injured, dont worry weve got you ( I love this and hate it in equal measures) Matty james being one example and even my personal fave ricardo shouldnt have been getting good terms at this point.  
• Very little made of horrific tackles by fer nino, tyler moron etc  
• We barely sniffled at 2 meteoric collapses from the top 4
• Nobody lost their job for one of the worst transfer windows in the history of the club and we are well and truly sat with our heads in the sand right now
• Let the set piece situation go unresolved for 2 seasons (even then the coach had visa issues
• A new head of recruitment that we let finish his term at a rival club 
• A brand new state of the art training facility  but no shake up of the coaches of the youth teams 
• Holding onto youth prospects that have no chance of making it, into their 20s. Leshabala the latest example of someone who should have been gone long ago 
• Going along with the entitled 6 - voting with them for things that only help them, rather than against them! sub rule etc
• Quite happy to let a player running down his contract run out as captain (talking about youri not evans)
• The party gate before the west ham game was not disciplined at all. They got their hangover game off and the only person to pay for it was poor dennis praet because he had a bad game after being rushed back from injury, before being exiled
• We dont push the unwanted players out the door. A lot of clubs may not get the money in for them, but they push them out on loan to get the stank out the building.
• Letting international teams play injured or recently recovered players. in the last few seasons weve had both evans and soyuncu go and represent their clubs after being out for months, before they are even back in contention for us
• we are terrified to poach teams youth players. How we havent taken all of the talent derby have is mind blowing
• One more, and im sorry this ones controversial.... we arent using leuven enough for our gain ... no other owner with multiple clubs just lets them be..They make them play youth, the send whoever they want their and they control it... we just let them be 

 

I'll put one positive example in, just to show balance. I felt we did handle the fofana transfer situation as well as we could, but you could still argue he and chelsea, did get what they wanted. 

When you put it all like this it's true - this is the inevitable outcome what we're seeing now. We're a soft club and I think a lot of the anger on here is to fulfil the lack of it from anybody involved at the club.

 

We as a club just don't fight. That to me is more hurtful than being shit.

[Claudio Fannieri]

I voted both as to blame and Brendan as the one who needs to leave and here is why - 

 

in the 2nd half of 2018-19 and first half of 19/20 Rodgers had us playing the best football I had ever seen from an LCFC side in my lifetime. It was scintillating stuff, we were playing a brand of football that was high intensity, exciting and entertaining, not withstanding the fact we were winning a very high percentage of games and there looked a real togetherness on the pitch. He had inherited the best playing squad we had ever assembled with the opportunity to build on the fantastic foundations in place. 
 

also at the this time we were being lauded of the pitch as well, we were an excellently run club with a 1st class recruitment and business model, backed up with innovative scouting and also a first rate medical and sports science team who had an excellent track record in managing player workloads and injury prevention. 
 

By November 2019 the hype surrounding Rodgers and the team led to Arsenal targeting him as manager and the club at the time rightly gave their Man a new contract to ward off interest, however for me this was the beginning of the end as this then started the rot as Rodgers slowly but surely wrestled more and more control away from the successful business model and taking a more active lead on recruitment and medical teams with individuals being hired either directly by Rodgers or by recommendation/influence. 
 

Our playing style started to change as well, we became more pragmatic in our approach, slower in our build up play and slowly but surely over the last 2 or so seasons we look over coached and we are a shadow of the team from his first 12 months in charge. The players who were playing with such intensity freedom and creativity now look devoid of any individual skill with the exception of Madders and Youri, the rest literally play football by numbers. 
 

Our recruitment model has been dismantled, and we have ended up with players who have not passed their prime selling point. Our players are constantly breaking down with injury due to the workload they are being placed under. 
 

All of this lies at the door of Rodgers, however the board are equally culpable as they have allowed Rodgers to come in and take control of key aspects of the club and destroy the good work and foundations in place. 
 

however for me get rid of Rodgers and the board then need to ensure no manager is ever allowed to exert the control that Rodgers has been afforded ever again. 

[dannythefox]

3 hours ago, elvisfmcfly said:

It’s amazing how unlucky Rodgers has been throughout his managerial career injuring and ruining his players, must have crossed a black cat whilst walking under a ladder whilst smashing a mirror whilst seeing one magpie. 

The question isn’t very clear is it, we’re in a mess in different ways. Rodger’s isn’t to blame for players being out of contract or injury’s, yes his training methods might need looking at but his team around him as well not just him. When it comes to money that’s the owners issue, rudkin or Whealen. There’s so many issues at the minute it’s not just the owners and Rodger’s fault. But like I said in another post with a fully fit squad we wouldn’t be in this mess sitting just above relegation. In Aussie rules they’d be an investigation as to why our players are injured all the time something that needs to be looked at over here in my opinion. I’m really not arsed about Rodger’s and his stubbornness not to change his tactics will cost him his job at some point.

[elvisfmcfly]

15 minutes ago, dannythefox said:

The question isn’t very clear is it, we’re in a mess in different ways. Rodger’s isn’t to blame for players being out of contract or injury’s, yes his training methods might need looking at but his team around him as well not just him. When it comes to money that’s the owners issue, rudkin or Whealen. There’s so many issues at the minute it’s not just the owners and Rodger’s fault. But like I said in another post with a fully fit squad we wouldn’t be in this mess sitting just above relegation. In Aussie rules they’d be an investigation as to why our players are injured all the time something that needs to be looked at over here in my opinion. I’m really not arsed about Rodger’s and his stubbornness not to change his tactics will cost him his job at some point.

The injuries are 100% on Rodgers and his choice of medical team when he booted out our old one. He’s done this at all his clubs. He reckless and just expects them to be replaced, our club will be in a much better position no matter what when we get rid of the poisonous little shit. 

[Hitesh]

Ridiculous the owners are getting any votes here. 

[dannythefox]

6 minutes ago, elvisfmcfly said:

The injuries are 100% on Rodgers and his choice of medical team when he booted out our old one. He’s done this at all his clubs. He reckless and just expects them to be replaced, our club will be in a much better position no matter what when we get rid of the poisonous little shit. 

Dave Rennie was the man but didn’t want to full time job as the club doctor. I wish he was still here but he hardly kicked him out.

[Daggers]

Both, and both.

[SemperEadem]

35 minutes ago, Hitesh said:

Ridiculous the owners are getting any votes here. 

How come?

[Nalis]

For me its roughly Rodgers 60%, owners 30% and players 10%.

[MattFox]

Business model where you have to sell a player to balance the books every year was always going to fall apart at some point

[CyprusFox]

7 minutes ago, Nalis said:

For me its roughly Rodgers 60%, owners 30% and players 10%.

The total disarray on the pitch is obviously down to Rodgers. The fact that he's still here is obviously down to the hierarchy. Who's mostly to blame for our situation?🤔

[Bptiger]

Things have gone down hill ever since TOP took over , so I think it’s the owners fault, but in saying that RODGERS has spat the dummy out when he was refused money to buy new players , 

[sacreblueits442]

3 hours ago, Claudio Fannieri said:

All of this lies at the door of Rodgers, however the board are equally culpable as they have allowed Rodgers to come in and take control of key aspects of the club and destroy the good work and foundations in place. 

...when your knowledge within the game is limited and there is a manager, who is to a point, revered and is breaking all records in Scotland, you try to get him into the club if you can!!!

  Having now acquired this manager, who had previously been within a whisker of giving Liverpool the Premier League title, and the success he had at the start of his tenure with us, you would have sought to make sure he stayed for a period of time, with the remit to reshape the club from top to bottom. 

  Having now extended his contract and gave him control and backed him in which ever direction he chose to take the club, our performances started to drop.

  For the owners of the club, it was an avenue they chose to pursue and at the time it was a logical and pragmatic business that they had done. This was a chance to revamp this club, into a club capable of holding its own with the big boys on the pitch.

 In hindsight, it was an error and they had misjudged Rogers ability to fall at the last hurdle in whatever he does. 

  If you have little knowledge within football, that is the chance you take.

Edited 12 January 2023 by sacreblueits442
Spelling error.

[StriderHiryu]

It's clearly both.

 

If / when Rodgers gets sacked, there will be a temporary uplift, but we will return to where we are now. The whole club needs a major rebuild. Look at Arsenal, post Wenger (and I would say post Emery too), the club was in the doldrums and a laughing stock. It took several years and multiple transfer windows to restore their fortunes.

 

I can't see us challenging for top 4 for a very long time. I think we are far away from even being to challenge for top 7. The reason is so many players will leave / have left and we'll have to build a new team. To do that we probably cash in on our best players like Maddison too. Rodgers will go at some point because a new era needs new leadership.

 

Uncertain times...

[sacreblueits442]

1 hour ago, MattFox said:

Business model where you have to sell a player to balance the books every year was always going to fall apart at some point

...two things, we needed to build a better training facility and expand the stadium!!!

 At the time the interest rate was so low, it was the best time to build the training ground.

  We brought in Daka and Soumare, without letting anyone go in order to finance it. Now you may not believe the acquisitions have been value for money but we have invested.

[Les-TA-Jon]

10 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

It's clearly both.

 

If / when Rodgers gets sacked, there will be a temporary uplift, but we will return to where we are now. The whole club needs a major rebuild. Look at Arsenal, post Wenger (and I would say post Emery too), the club was in the doldrums and a laughing stock. It took several years and multiple transfer windows to restore their fortunes.

 

I can't see us challenging for top 4 for a very long time. I think we are far away from even being to challenge for top 7. The reason is so many players will leave / have left and we'll have to build a new team. To do that we probably cash in on our best players like Maddison too. Rodgers will go at some point because a new era needs new leadership.

 

Uncertain times...

Relegation and 5-10 years out of the premier league is looking more likely right now!

[StriderHiryu]

2 minutes ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

Relegation and 5-10 years out of the premier league is looking more likely right now!

I'm not sure it would take 5-10 years. Parachute payments are a big thing, which is why more and more often teams that go down come back up again quickly. See Watford, Norwich and Burnley this year. 

 

Relegation is a real possibility. When literally every other team strengthens and we go the over way you are asking for trouble. 

[sacreblueits442]

6 minutes ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

Relegation and 5-10 years out of the premier league is looking more likely right now!

.. the parachute payment will always be a buffer between clubs fighting to get out of the Championship and the relegated clubs from the Premier league!!!

[LCFCCHRIS]

Might be a silly question.

Does anyone think having this top of the range training ground might have even hurt us more?

Possibly some mentality of not having to work as hard because they're in some fancy new facilities that do the work for you?

 

Probably not correlated but I'd be interested to know since they started there if our results also dropped off compared to before.