Cesare Casadei - Loan

[st albans fox]

1 minute ago, Paninistickers said:

Sounds extremely confusing and as an oppo manager, the first thing I'd do is launch the ball into the channels if our full backs are AWOL on midfield duty with an added bonus of pulling a centre half out of position into wide areas. 

 

I'd also go stick a big centre forward on one of our centre halves so they don't have the luxury of putting their foot on the ball. 

 

These total football tactics sound worryingly simple for opponent analysts to deconstruct so far. 

 

When the opponent has the ball we will have a back four 

if the opponent gains the ball on transition then I expect we will be happy for them to launch it forwards quickly because that makes it more likely that we will get the ball back 

 

These simple tactics proved rather complicated for Man City’s opponents to deconstruct last season. 

[Paninistickers]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

When the opponent has the ball we will have a back four 

if the opponent gains the ball on transition then I expect we will be happy for them to launch it forwards quickly because that makes it more likely that we will get the ball back 

 

These simple tactics proved rather complicated for Man City’s opponents to deconstruct last season. 

But Man City had a peerless Gundogan plus the likes of outstanding talents of De Bruyne, Silva, Walker, Rodri et al. 

 

We'll see. I still think those like Warnock will relish knocking us off our perch with a more basic approach 

 

 

[sbfox]

7 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Sounds extremely confusing and as an oppo manager, the first thing I'd do is launch the ball into the channels if our full backs are AWOL on midfield duty with an added bonus of pulling a centre half out of position into wide areas. 

 

I'd also go stick a big centre forward on one of our centre halves so they don't have the luxury of putting their foot on the ball. 

 

These total football tactics sound worryingly simple for opponent analysts to deconstruct so far. 

 

 

 

I've been off foxestalk for about a decade, but had to sign back in after reading this. You know an inverted WB is one of the more common tactics in modern football, right? Is your entire post dripping in irony? 

 

Our fanbase is unusual in that we seem to be stuck in the 90s. Maybe jot so much on here, but go down the KP and it's like stepping back in time. 

[sbfox]

2 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

But Man City had a peerless Gundogan plus the likes of outstanding talents of De Bruyne, Silva, Walker, Rodri et al. 

 

We'll see. I still think those like Warnock will relish knocking us off our perch with a more basic approach 

 

 

442, knock it up to the big lad up top, flick on to the little guy off his shoulder, 1-0. Right? 

[Paninistickers]

2 minutes ago, sbfox said:

I've been off foxestalk for about a decade, but had to sign back in after reading this. You know an inverted WB is one of the more common tactics in modern football, right? Is your entire post dripping in irony? 

 

Our fanbase is unusual in that we seem to be stuck in the 90s. Maybe jot so much on here, but go down the KP and it's like stepping back in time. 

There's a fairly high chance I've forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know.

 

My point is that good managers look for a way past big money signings and possession based football. And a good manager would relish trying to crack the code. 

 

From what I've read about Doyle uncomfortable LB and Ricky vacating RB to move into midfield, that to any half decent manager would be a huge red flag to exploit and be the very first line of analysis to see if there's a weakness there. 

 

The comparison with Man City is fanciful. They have, for example, Walker's astonishing speed to bail them out of any ball into the channel. Plus the continual tactical fouling to halt a turnover supported by lenient refs. We will have neither as a luxury 

[sbfox]

1 minute ago, Paninistickers said:

There's a fairly high chance I've forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know.

 

My point is that good managers look for a way past big money signings and possession based football. And a good manager would relish trying to crack the code. 

 

From what I've read about Doyle uncomfortable LB and Ricky vacating RB to move into midfield, that to any half decent manager would be a huge red flag to exploit and be the very first line of analysis to see if there's a weakness there. 

 

The comparison with Man City is fanciful. They have, for example, Walker's astonishing speed to bail them out of any ball into the channel. Plus the continual tactical fouling to halt a turnover supported by lenient refs. We will have neither as a luxury 

Sure you have boss, really demonstrating that knowledge here! 

[MGLCFC]

Any news on the loan deal for Casadei?

[ealingfox]

1 minute ago, MGLCFC said:

Any news on the loan deal for Casadei?

 

This is the Callum Doyle Best Position thread mate, try somewhere else.

[Bordersfox]

3 hours ago, sbfox said:

I've been off foxestalk for about a decade, but had to sign back in after reading this. You know an inverted WB is one of the more common tactics in modern football, right? Is your entire post dripping in irony? 

 

Our fanbase is unusual in that we seem to be stuck in the 90s. Maybe jot so much on here, but go down the KP and it's like stepping back in time. 

Returning to FT after ten years, old Panini really did it this time.  Kudos to you.  

 

I genuinely think Panny is one of the great parody characters of the forum.  He should be writing for Private Eye, he's totally wasting his talents on us plebians. 

 

What can I say, I enjoy his posts and imagine him rubbing his hands with glee every time he hooks someone.  

Edited 16 July 2023 by Bordersfox

[JayT - Always A Fox!]

50 minutes ago, Scotch said:

I don't think the RB will be "bombing on". By the looks of it, the RB will be stepping into the midfield alongside Winks. 

 

I reckon Doyle will be in that LB slot, coming inside to create a back three when on the ball. I think VK will be ok there but not Thomas. 

So when we loose possession and he’s stuck upfront he won’t need to run back? He’ll just ‘step back into RB’ 😂 If we’re looking at the way Cancelo and Walker played for Pep over the last two years it will be something similar with Ricardo/JJ, they’ll be expected to get backwards and forwards pretty quickly hence the terminology used.

 

If we played with another winger then yes I would agree with you. But I think they’ll be letting Ricardo run the show down that right hand side.

Edited 16 July 2023 by JayT - Always A Fox!

[Scotch]

20 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

There's a fairly high chance I've forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know.

 

My point is that good managers look for a way past big money signings and possession based football. And a good manager would relish trying to crack the code. 

 

From what I've read about Doyle uncomfortable LB and Ricky vacating RB to move into midfield, that to any half decent manager would be a huge red flag to exploit and be the very first line of analysis to see if there's a weakness there. 

 

The comparison with Man City is fanciful. They have, for example, Walker's astonishing speed to bail them out of any ball into the channel. Plus the continual tactical fouling to halt a turnover supported by lenient refs. We will have neither as a luxury 

Ofcourse there is going to be a way to beat it, and the way to beat it is going to have a way to counter it. That's what football is. 

 

As for your, launching it up into the wide areas, that's not going to have continuous success. It may work the odd time but for it to work, the opposition are going to have to do it immediately after winning the ball, before we get a chance to settle back into our four so they will have to have a man waiting in that area as they transition which leaves them a man short for winning the ball back in the first place. 

Our back three don't appear to play narrow either. The LCB and RCB are fairly wide and at points yesterday, those two CB roles were occupied by Doyle and Souttar so you would essentially be lobbing the ball into the general area of a giant. 

 

I would bet that Enzo would be absolutely delighted by the opposing manager opting for the tactic of long balls towards two of our tallest players. You're also talking like Ricardo will be the other side of the city, he was stepping into the RDM spot. He's litteraly a few backward steps from being back into position which is actually less dangerous than the traditional bombing down the wing of a traditional FB. 

[RumbleFox]

33 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

There's a fairly high chance I've forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know.

 

My point is that good managers look for a way past big money signings and possession based football. And a good manager would relish trying to crack the code. 

 

From what I've read about Doyle uncomfortable LB and Ricky vacating RB to move into midfield, that to any half decent manager would be a huge red flag to exploit and be the very first line of analysis to see if there's a weakness there. 

 

The comparison with Man City is fanciful. They have, for example, Walker's astonishing speed to bail them out of any ball into the channel. Plus the continual tactical fouling to halt a turnover supported by lenient refs. We will have neither as a luxury 

But “possession based football” is demonstrably, empirically more successful than any other type of football at this present time. If managers could counter it so easily it wouldn’t be so universally successful. Yes of course Man City have better players than us but we will have one of the better squads in the championship.
 

If it was as easy as you claim to figure out ways to play against it it wouldn’t be so successful. I’m not saying we’ll have an amazing season, we may not, but as an approach it’s clearly the most effective way of playing football just now. 

[Scotch]

5 minutes ago, JayT - Always A Fox! said:

So when we loose possession and he’s stuck upfront he won’t need to run back? He’ll just ‘step back into RB’ 😂 If we’re looking at the way Cancelo and Walker played for Pep over the last two years it will be something similar with Ricardo/JJ, they’ll be expected to get backwards and forwards pretty quickly hence the terminology used.

 

If we played with another winger then yes I would agree with you. But I think they’ll be letting Ricardo run the show down that right hand side.

I disagree. From what we've seen so far, I think the width will come from wingers. We just don't have any at the minute but yesterday, Madivadua and Castagne occupied those roles in the first half and Daka/Albrighton the second. 

Ricardo was very much stepping in alongside Winks between the defence and midfield, whether that changes with personel, we will see. 

[An Sionnach]

Northampton were decent but limited so a long debate about tactics will only gain some focus when we start to meet opposition of similar ability , and I don't mean Spurs and Liverpool. Coventry will be the test , a good Championship team and no doubt Doyle can give some inside information.

[LCFCJohn]

I don’t mind us playing possession based as long as it’s done the right way and exciting. But, trying to compare ourselves like to like to Man City concerns me a bit. I.e, yeah Ricardo will be Walker and Doyle will be Ake etc. They are different players, less talented players. 
 

Im sure I’ll get piled on of course, but I’d rather we find our own way than just try and copy them….

[RedSoxUK]

1 hour ago, MGLCFC said:

Any news on the loan deal for Casadei?

Who?

[whoareyaaa]

2 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

There's a fairly high chance I've forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know.

 

My point is that good managers look for a way past big money signings and possession based football. And a good manager would relish trying to crack the code. 

 

From what I've read about Doyle uncomfortable LB and Ricky vacating RB to move into midfield, that to any half decent manager would be a huge red flag to exploit and be the very first line of analysis to see if there's a weakness there. 

 

The comparison with Man City is fanciful. They have, for example, Walker's astonishing speed to bail them out of any ball into the channel. Plus the continual tactical fouling to halt a turnover supported by lenient refs. We will have neither as a luxury 

he already said after the game we won't be able to play like that all the time as teams will come man for man, so he knows what to expect.

[Scotch]

2 hours ago, MGLCFC said:

Any news on the loan deal for Casadei?

None here, maybe try the tactics thread? 

[foxpleasure]

2 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

There's a fairly high chance I've forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know.

 

My point is that good managers look for a way past big money signings and possession based football. And a good manager would relish trying to crack the code. 

 

From what I've read about Doyle uncomfortable LB and Ricky vacating RB to move into midfield, that to any half decent manager would be a huge red flag to exploit and be the very first line of analysis to see if there's a weakness there. 

 

The comparison with Man City is fanciful. They have, for example, Walker's astonishing speed to bail them out of any ball into the channel. Plus the continual tactical fouling to halt a turnover supported by lenient refs. We will have neither as a luxury 

For God's sake, Brendon, don't you think it's time to forget about us and concentrate on winning the quadruple quadruple with Celtic.

[ClaphamFox]

3 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

There's a fairly high chance I've forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know.

 

My point is that good managers look for a way past big money signings and possession based football. And a good manager would relish trying to crack the code. 

 

From what I've read about Doyle uncomfortable LB and Ricky vacating RB to move into midfield, that to any half decent manager would be a huge red flag to exploit and be the very first line of analysis to see if there's a weakness there. 

 

The comparison with Man City is fanciful. They have, for example, Walker's astonishing speed to bail them out of any ball into the channel. Plus the continual tactical fouling to halt a turnover supported by lenient refs. We will have neither as a luxury 

Are you suggesting that opposition managers will study us and try to exploit any weaknesses they identify - meaning we’ll then have to adapt our game? Well that, sir, is an outrage! 😡

[Jimbo]

3 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

Sounds extremely confusing and as an oppo manager, the first thing I'd do is launch the ball into the channels if our full backs are AWOL on midfield duty with an added bonus of pulling a centre half out of position into wide areas. 

 

I'd also go stick a big centre forward on one of our centre halves so they don't have the luxury of putting their foot on the ball. 

 

These total football tactics sound worryingly simple for opponent analysts to deconstruct so far. 

 

 

 

They're that worryingly simple that Man City won the treble?? 

 

Did you see Dan Burn at left back at all for Newcastle last season?

 

If the oppo manager instructs his team to launch the ball forward then they'll be met with a back 4, that's the idea of it.

 

If you stick a centre forward on one of the centre backs, that's also the idea. It pulls team out of position and frees up space in the middle of the park for a quick transition from defence to attack once the trap is sprung.

 

When in attack it's a 3241 formation, when in defence it's a 4231 formation

 

The best thing an oppo manager can do against it (and because we're most certainly not Man City) is sit and wait and not press the back 3. Leave 1 man up top with a half press and have 2 solid banks of 5 and 4. Suffocate the space, frustrate the team and pressure them to look for space that isn't there and start forcing their forward passes. Rather than play a high press, play a deep press. Assuming Ricardo will take up the "Stones" role the problem we face is that he is the true definition of failed winger. He likes to get forward and if Enzo can't coach that out of him or should I say coach him into a new way of playing, he may get caught out more often than not. A lot of what we do this season will rely on Winks and whoever is going to be the RCB. 

 

It's very early though, and Enzo might just be trying to see IF we can play that way, he may, and probably does have other ideas. We'll see in the next few weeks I guess

[Jimbo]

3 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

There's a fairly high chance I've forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know.

 

My point is that good managers look for a way past big money signings and possession based football. And a good manager would relish trying to crack the code. 

 

From what I've read about Doyle uncomfortable LB and Ricky vacating RB to move into midfield, that to any half decent manager would be a huge red flag to exploit and be the very first line of analysis to see if there's a weakness there. 

 

The comparison with Man City is fanciful. They have, for example, Walker's astonishing speed to bail them out of any ball into the channel. Plus the continual tactical fouling to halt a turnover supported by lenient refs. We will have neither as a luxury 

 

[Number 6]

Also one of the demands of a 4-4-2 type system is full-backs getting forward when in possession, so the same space exists. Ricardo as a deep midfielder may find it easier to recover his position.

[Paninistickers]

1 hour ago, Jimbo said:

They're that worryingly simple that Man City won the treble?? 

 

Did you see Dan Burn at left back at all for Newcastle last season?

 

If the oppo manager instructs his team to launch the ball forward then they'll be met with a back 4, that's the idea of it.

 

If you stick a centre forward on one of the centre backs, that's also the idea. It pulls team out of position and frees up space in the middle of the park for a quick transition from defence to attack once the trap is sprung.

 

When in attack it's a 3241 formation, when in defence it's a 4231 formation

 

The best thing an oppo manager can do against it (and because we're most certainly not Man City) is sit and wait and not press the back 3. Leave 1 man up top with a half press and have 2 solid banks of 5 and 4. Suffocate the space, frustrate the team and pressure them to look for space that isn't there and start forcing their forward passes. Rather than play a high press, play a deep press. Assuming Ricardo will take up the "Stones" role the problem we face is that he is the true definition of failed winger. He likes to get forward and if Enzo can't coach that out of him or should I say coach him into a new way of playing, he may get caught out more often than not. A lot of what we do this season will rely on Winks and whoever is going to be the RCB. 

 

It's very early though, and Enzo might just be trying to see IF we can play that way, he may, and probably does have other ideas. We'll see in the next few weeks I guess

You see, this is a great answer to my original post. Your second post having a pop is a very poor riposte along with others who refuse to question the orthodoxy..

 

I had the decency to challenge the tactical set up as an 'exercise'. Not on a negative nelly, mike Bassett sense...but a good honest peer review. Blind faith and optimism aren't always the best default positions to take. This guy is new to the game. Stress testing his ideas is healthy.

 

 

 

 

Edited 16 July 2023 by Paninistickers

[Lillehamring]

5 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Because it looks like we will set up with our right back inverting into midfield when we have the ball - then the other three defenders take up a back three formation. Doyle will be on the left side of that three.  Pep has tended to use centre backs in this formation as left back in the four 

 

I assume JJ would be ok moving across into the three but not sure VK is 

 

it means we have a CB playing left back when we are defending (not on transition) but I suspect the coach doesn’t think we are likely to be doign that much 

As it turned out - we had so much possession Ricardo very rarely played at RB, and doyle very rarely played at LB.