Leicester 'could face points deduction next season'

[FOXSE]

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/JdZQBahvQ2fwzits/

[Jack1993]

They should do it like WWE, 

 

We lift the trophy, players are having a beer and dancing on the pitch, stadium full of joyous fans, grinning from ear to ear, pure happiness that can't be taken away from them UNTIL...

 

Music stops, lights go out, eyes appear on the big screens but it's not the fox,

 

Motorhead starts playing... 

 

"It's time to play the game" 

 

it's... SEAN DYCHE, OUT OF NOWHERE

 

"It's all about the game and how you play it.
All about control and if you can take it.
All about your debt and if you can pay it.
It's all about pain and who's gonna make it."

 

Sean walks directly to Maresca and hands him an envelope and inside that envelope is a number... 

 

Angry Maresca is dragged away by Rudkin, Vardy slaps Dyche, lights out again and everyone disappears, how many points will be deducted?

 

To be continued, in August on SKY SPORTS, THE HOME OF THE PREMIER LEAGUE 

Edited 3 May 2024 by Jack1993

[filbertway]

Can't be many businesses where the majority of people are frothing at the prospect of risking the existence of companies for the chance at achieving a few fleeting years of glory.

[Spudulike]

51 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

There are supposed be checks and balances to make sure that clubs are not being overpaid for sponsorship deals.  There will be a ‘market value’ for our stadium sponsorship.  you make a reasonable point but we’d need to actually find companies who actually want to pay to sponsor stands in our stadium. 

Upton Steel? Air Asia East Stand (wasn't it?). Must be some out there wanting to see their logo's in prominent positions especially in the Premier League with the world watching.

 

The new East stand (if it ever happens) will command the most especially as the cameras will be moved over to the West Stand.

[ClaphamFox]

There continues to be a lot of chatter online about Leeds (and possibly other clubs) suing us because we've been promoted after being charged with a PSR breach. However, I'm completely ignorant on the law in this area and have found nothing online that provides clear guidance. Does anybody know how much of a case they'd have? Specifically, could they sue us for a 2020-23 breach given that we were relegated at the end of it and did not deprive them of a place in the PL? Their fans seem convinced they've got a case because they think we should have been given a points deduction this season and have gained an advantage by avoiding that - but given that PL/EFL rules did not enable a points deduction this season, would that hold any water, legally speaking?

 

Just curious really. A lot of very angry people online are frothing at the mouth at the prospect of us being sued out of existence, but none of them seem to know anything about the law - they're just confusing what they want to happen with what is likely to happen. Can anybody provide a cool, objective legal perspective on the issue?

[Ricey]

20 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

There continues to be a lot of chatter online about Leeds (and possibly other clubs) suing us because we've been promoted after being charged with a PSR breach. However, I'm completely ignorant on the law in this area and have found nothing online that provides clear guidance. Does anybody know how much of a case they'd have? Specifically, could they sue us for a 2020-23 breach given that we were relegated at the end of it and did not deprive them of a place in the PL? Their fans seem convinced they've got a case because they think we should have been given a points deduction this season and have gained an advantage by avoiding that - but given that PL/EFL rules did not enable a points deduction this season, would that hold any water, legally speaking?

 

Just curious really. A lot of very angry people online are frothing at the mouth at the prospect of us being sued out of existence, but none of them seem to know anything about the law - they're just confusing what they want to happen with what is likely to happen. Can anybody provide a cool, objective legal perspective on the issue?

If we are liable because we should have had the points deduction this season, then we could sue Everton for not getting their deduction last season.

[Dahnsouff]

23 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

There continues to be a lot of chatter online about Leeds (and possibly other clubs) suing us because we've been promoted after being charged with a PSR breach. However, I'm completely ignorant on the law in this area and have found nothing online that provides clear guidance. Does anybody know how much of a case they'd have? Specifically, could they sue us for a 2020-23 breach given that we were relegated at the end of it and did not deprive them of a place in the PL? Their fans seem convinced they've got a case because they think we should have been given a points deduction this season and have gained an advantage by avoiding that - but given that PL/EFL rules did not enable a points deduction this season, would that hold any water, legally speaking?

 

Just curious really. A lot of very angry people online are frothing at the mouth at the prospect of us being sued out of existence, but none of them seem to know anything about the law - they're just confusing what they want to happen with what is likely to happen. Can anybody provide a cool, objective legal perspective on the issue?

No chance this happens, as breaching and related punishments are under the remit of the competition organiser. The fact the EFL  cannot place their punishment on us this season is a consequence of their rules. We have nothing to do with this ironically. Even using the EPL charge for next season or even previous seasons, they are not relevant as nothing in the their rules allow punitive measures to be delivered at will, they have to be applied in line with their rules, the following year , at least until the recent rule change, which cannot apply retrospectively or in year.

 

I think.

[Babylon]

39 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

There continues to be a lot of chatter online about Leeds (and possibly other clubs) suing us because we've been promoted after being charged with a PSR breach. However, I'm completely ignorant on the law in this area and have found nothing online that provides clear guidance. Does anybody know how much of a case they'd have? Specifically, could they sue us for a 2020-23 breach given that we were relegated at the end of it and did not deprive them of a place in the PL? Their fans seem convinced they've got a case because they think we should have been given a points deduction this season and have gained an advantage by avoiding that - but given that PL/EFL rules did not enable a points deduction this season, would that hold any water, legally speaking?

 

Just curious really. A lot of very angry people online are frothing at the mouth at the prospect of us being sued out of existence, but none of them seem to know anything about the law - they're just confusing what they want to happen with what is likely to happen. Can anybody provide a cool, objective legal perspective on the issue?

We've followed the league's rule as they were written; what case do they think they have exactly? Take it up with the league.

[st albans fox]

33 minutes ago, Ricey said:

If we are liable because we should have had the points deduction this season, then we could sue Everton for not getting their deduction last season.

Everton’s point deduction was applied correctly this season 

the rules were changed last summer 

 

leeds would only have a case if we failed psr this season and even then, it’s a case that they’d have to prove on the basis that we made no efforts to meet our psr obligations. Given that we’ve sold Barnes and only made a couple of signings (and made no signings in Jan) then if we sell players in June to try and reduce our breach then I suspect they would have a very weak case that they wouldn’t bother perusing.  Even if we did cock a snook to the regs then the rules as written would lead to a points sanction next season In the efl - so Leeds would need the hearing to rule that they were entitled to seek compensation (similar to the Everton judgement ). 
 

Given the risks involved I would expect us to sell kdh to mitigate that potential exposure. We can easily argue that we had been unable to sell other players that would help our psr situation because there is evidence that we’d tried and failed to move players on in previous windows. 
 

A final thought is that if we do finish more than six points ahead of Leeds then we can argue that the expectation of a six point deduction applied in the same season would not have materially affected Leeds’ position. That can be viewed retrospectively because we have till June 30 to meet our obligations and we signed no one in Jan (had the efl seen out books last autumn we would have had a transfer ban in Jan). I could see us thinking about using that argument in a court case if Leeds brought one - I’d be surprised if they did because they will probably end up in a similar place to us next season if they fail to be promoted and won’t want any precedence set.

Edited 3 May 2024 by st albans fox

[Hamilton Fox]

45 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

There continues to be a lot of chatter online about Leeds (and possibly other clubs) suing us because we've been promoted after being charged with a PSR breach. However, I'm completely ignorant on the law in this area and have found nothing online that provides clear guidance. Does anybody know how much of a case they'd have? Specifically, could they sue us for a 2020-23 breach given that we were relegated at the end of it and did not deprive them of a place in the PL? Their fans seem convinced they've got a case because they think we should have been given a points deduction this season and have gained an advantage by avoiding that - but given that PL/EFL rules did not enable a points deduction this season, would that hold any water, legally speaking?

 

Just curious really. A lot of very angry people online are frothing at the mouth at the prospect of us being sued out of existence, but none of them seem to know anything about the law - they're just confusing what they want to happen with what is likely to happen. Can anybody provide a cool, objective legal perspective on the issue?

The irony that our balance sheet is in a better position than Leeds is lost on everyone which makes these rules even more annoying

[Spudulike]

3 hours ago, ClaphamFox said:

There continues to be a lot of chatter online about Leeds (and possibly other clubs) suing us because we've been promoted after being charged with a PSR breach. However, I'm completely ignorant on the law in this area and have found nothing online that provides clear guidance. Does anybody know how much of a case they'd have? Specifically, could they sue us for a 2020-23 breach given that we were relegated at the end of it and did not deprive them of a place in the PL? Their fans seem convinced they've got a case because they think we should have been given a points deduction this season and have gained an advantage by avoiding that - but given that PL/EFL rules did not enable a points deduction this season, would that hold any water, legally speaking?

 

Just curious really. A lot of very angry people online are frothing at the mouth at the prospect of us being sued out of existence, but none of them seem to know anything about the law - they're just confusing what they want to happen with what is likely to happen. Can anybody provide a cool, objective legal perspective on the issue?

Where are you seeing this chatter? 

[MalletFox]

1 hour ago, Spudulike said:

Where are you seeing this chatter? 

I’m seeing it mainly on FB in response to me continuously posting “🎶I PREDICT THE PLAYOFFS, I PREDICT THE PLAYOFFS 🎶”, it’s really winding them up a treat!

 

Do you think the Club will go troll overload and actually play that at full-time tomorrow? I would absolutely love that!!

[moore_94]

 

[daddylonglegs]

Are we more likely to get 4 or 6 points deduction from the start of next year, is anyone clued up?

[ClaphamFox]

4 minutes ago, daddylonglegs said:

Are we more likely to get 4 or 6 points deduction from the start of next year, is anyone clued up?

I don't think anybody really knows. Even the football finance experts seem to disagree - Kieran Maguire has estimated our breach to be slightly less than Forest's; Stefan Borson seems to think ours is much worse. And while Forest and Everton gained from their breaches, we were relegated. Will that be taken as mitigation? Opinions seem to vary.

However, apparently the panel that deals with these cases only handles one at a time, so now that Forest's case has been dealt with we'll probably soon know when ours will be heard. 

[UniFox21]

37 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

I don't think anybody really knows. Even the football finance experts seem to disagree - Kieran Maguire has estimated our breach to be slightly less than Forest's; Stefan Borson seems to think ours is much worse. And while Forest and Everton gained from their breaches, we were relegated. Will that be taken as mitigation? Opinions seem to vary.

However, apparently the panel that deals with these cases only handles one at a time, so now that Forest's case has been dealt with we'll probably soon know when ours will be heard. 

From what we've seen so far, Everton have 8 points deducted (with 2 under appeal) and Forest have had 4 deducted.

You'd imagine we'd be within that range, likely higher than Forest as we've been seen to argue back and fight the illegal actions of the EFL.

You'd imagine 6 points, but as you've said, we have no idea. The experts are disagreeing over what could happen so who knows.

[Mike Oxlong]

41 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

I don't think anybody really knows. Even the football finance experts seem to disagree - Kieran Maguire has estimated our breach to be slightly less than Forest's; Stefan Borson seems to think ours is much worse. And while Forest and Everton gained from their breaches, we were relegated. Will that be taken as mitigation? Opinions seem to vary.

However, apparently the panel that deals with these cases only handles one at a time, so now that Forest's case has been dealt with we'll probably soon know when ours will be heard. 

It really shouldn’t be a mitigating factor that we couldn’t even successfully cheat our way to survival 

[ClaphamFox]

4 minutes ago, UniFox21 said:

From what we've seen so far, Everton have 8 points deducted (with 2 under appeal) and Forest have had 4 deducted.

You'd imagine we'd be within that range, likely higher than Forest as we've been seen to argue back and fight the illegal actions of the EFL.

You'd imagine 6 points, but as you've said, we have no idea. The experts are disagreeing over what could happen so who knows.

Everton's eight points are for two separate seasons, not one. I'm expecting 4-6 for us, with 6 slightly more probable.

 

3 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

It really shouldn’t be a mitigating factor that we couldn’t even successfully cheat our way to survival 

You make a good point, but if you read the full statements of the panels that reviewed Everton's and Forest's cases, they do mention 'sporting advantage' quite a lot. So the extent to which clubs have gained from cheating would appear to be a factor in determining the punishment. But who knows? Certainly not me...

[Nick]

I reckon they’ll try and hog us with a double figure points deduction that’ll get reduced to 8 or 9.

[moore_94]

Just now, Nick said:

I reckon they’ll try and hog us with a double figure points deduction that’ll get reduced to 8 or 9.

It’s 9 points for administration so I can’t see how they can justify it being that or more

[Mike Oxlong]

Just now, ClaphamFox said:

Everton's eight points are for two separate seasons, not one. I'm expecting 4-6 for us, with 6 slightly more probable.

 

You make a good point, but if you read the full statements of the panels that reviewed Everton's and Forest's cases, they do mention 'sporting advantage' quite a lot. So the extent to which clubs have gained from cheating would appear to be a factor in determining the punishment. But who knows? Certainly not me...

We must have gained an advantage through the overspend. We gained by improving our prospects of remaining in the division. The fact that we were so inept at utilising the advantage can’t be mitigation on any logical analysis. Maybe some legal eagle will prove otherwise ? 

[ClaphamFox]

5 minutes ago, Nick said:

I reckon they’ll try and hog us with a double figure points deduction that’ll get reduced to 8 or 9.

Why do you think it will be 8 or 9? The most given for one season (after appeals) is six, so our case would have to be demonstrably worse than Everton's or Forest's for us to get 8 or 9.

[Nick]

Just now, moore_94 said:

It’s 9 points for administration so I can’t see how they can justify it being that or more

Are the two things related or separated by a figure or scale? I think they’ll go punitive and then we’ll just have to see. If our breaches are more £’s than say Everton and they got 8 then there’s nowhere to go between what they got and administration? 
 

Plus administration is not always financial mismanagement or cheating etc - it can be down to other factors out of club control. 
 

is there a written scale or limit as to what sanctions the panel can hand out in terms of points deductions and fines etc?

[UniFox21]

Just now, Nick said:

Are the two things related or separated by a figure or scale? I think they’ll go punitive and then we’ll just have to see. If our breaches are more £’s than say Everton and they got 8 then there’s nowhere to go between what they got and administration? 
 

Plus administration is not always financial mismanagement or cheating etc - it can be down to other factors out of club control. 
 

is there a written scale or limit as to what sanctions the panel can hand out in terms of points deductions and fines etc?

Forests were technically higher than Everton and they received a 4 point deduction. 

 

Remember the league can give whatever punishment they fancy, but the independent panel will be the decider of what's acceptable or not. 

Administration is the biggest issue in terms of financial consequences. The club can no longer pay it's bills etc. There's no logical way spending above PSR limits, but not being at financial risk should receive the same or more severe punishment than administration

[lcfcbluearmy]

8 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

We must have gained an advantage through the overspend. We gained by improving our prospects of remaining in the division. The fact that we were so inept at utilising the advantage can’t be mitigation on any logical analysis. Maybe some legal eagle will prove otherwise ? 

You could also say that 2 clubs that also cheated one that has been charged for two years in a row stayed up at our expense so we didn't gain a sporting advantage over teams that also broke the rules