Rodger’s vs the board (chicken vs egg)

[The Year Of The Fox]

1 hour ago, Lambert09 said:

Time is definitely a bit of a healer and my full on venom towards Brendan has diluted.  But im curious on people’s thoughts on this.

 

At the time, many (myself included) believed that the reason for our downfall was Brendan. it was the boards because they didn’t get rid of him quick enough but by and large I think we all believed he caused this downfall with project ego.

 

In hindsight, it’s clear that the problems he raised all those years ago, particularly after forest, were valid.

 

Theres no hiding that to get that squad relegated is nothing short of a disgrace. But the real short coming,  was the club not supporting him. 
 

He created something special for 2 seasons and at the crunch time in January, when we were laboured with injuries (both times) he didn’t get the support he needed.

 

The injured players never returned at the same levels. (Wilf, Ricardo, Justin, even Maddison for large periods) 

 

And this failure to evolve led us to forest, when Brendan said it how it is. The  club needed a complete rebuild. He was exactly right… the summer comes and we did…. Absolutely nothing. 
 

Now, you can be mad with how he handled it. But this had been coming. Look at man city from this season, things go stale even with the best managers in football. the fresh players change what you can do and reenergize the club, it stops people getting too comfy.  When he realised how far gone we were, he simply stopped trying and wanted to be sacked… the club were too inept to do that and had put themselves in that position with severe mismanagement of funds. 
 

All I need to know, to work out who is to blame….we replaced fofana with faes. 
 

Curious how peoples opinions might have switched looking back with hindsight 

Valid?

 

He wanted to replace players that had got him 5th and 8th place finishes AND an FA Cup win 9 months before losing to Forest because all of a sudden they’d become crap? Because a manager on more money than Ancelotti at the time couldn’t reinvigorate them? 

 

He lost not a single player the summer after the Cup win, and also added to the squad.

He was basically telling you the signings made in that summer weren’t good enough. He bloody requested them! 
 

Take that poisonous dwarfs attitude of throwing the players under the bus and compare it to Pearsons where he’d take a proverbial bullet for them in the media.

 

I wouldn’t want Rodgers in the trenches with me, I know that much.
 

As for saying he wasn’t backed- £220m spent on players during Rodgers’ tenure- the most we’ve ever spent. It’s not the boards fault he signed shite, who played even worse, thus not putting themselves in the shop window for a resale.

 

And when he was ‘backed’ he signed Tete, Kristisnsen and Souttar. 
 

Little wonder the board were reluctant to invest in him further. It’s probably the one thing they’ve got right in a number of years.

 

 

Would’ve still been much cheaper sacking the guy after Warsaw away, compensating him, and getting in literally any other half decent manager who could get a tune out of Justin, Ricardo, Maddison, Youri, Barnes and Vardy

 

Dont let the passage of time fool you.

 

 

 

Edited 3 March by The Year Of The Fox

[Foxin_Mad]

Thing is the club doesn’t have an identity or forward planning for charges, it’s not proactive. Other clubs know who they are bringing in, we act late and have no clue where we are heading so don’t know what to do the fix problems. Just generally poor football operations. 

[john ridley]

Don't forget  we dodged the jack Harrison bullet  as well 

[sdb]

He cared more about himself than the club. To the point he gave up trying for what he saw as his own benefit. Hindsight would suggest he won that one. Great coach and some great memories but he was paid crazy money and sadly that juicy payout was on his mind the day that new contract was signed. 

[PAULCFC]

I will never forgive him for first game of the season v Brentford.....cruising at 2.0 at half time,Frank makes 5 subs and we all know what happened next.....then he has the nerve to blame the heat!

[The Horse's Mouth]

Christ people saying he wasn’t back while going around giving Ryan betrand 70 bags a week and all the other dross he infested into the club is wild.

 

i don’t hate him as much as other people though, it was on the board for not sacking him earlier not that he was justified in his management towards the end.

 

had we pulled the trigger earlier, us getting Emery would’ve genuinely been possible 

[when_you're_smiling]

27 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

while the club ****ed up those January windows (oh let's get Ryan Bennett to secure champions league football), I still don't think that Rodgers was entirely right saying the squad needed a rebuild, like at that point look at the squad we had and who signed them (or debut for the academy products)

 

Schmeichel - Sven

Albrighton, Vardy - Pearson

Amartey, Ndidi, Mendy - Ranieri

Iheanacho - Shakey

Soyuncu, Evans, Ricardo, Barnes, Tielemans, Maddison, Choudhury, Ward - Puel

Justin, Fofana, Bertrand, Vestergaard, Castagne, Thomas, KDH, Lookman, Soumare, Daka, Perez - Rodgers 

 

He signed a good 40% of the squad, if we needed a rebuild then that's on the poor recruitment between him and Congerton, particularly since if you look at the best line up from that (excepting Fofana as he was injured at the time) in the system we played it's arguably: Schmeichel, Ricardo, Evans, Soyuncu, Castagne, Ndidi, Barnes, Tielemans, Maddison, Lookman, Vardy, or 1 x Sven, 1 x Pearson, 1 x Ranieri, 6 x Puel, 2 x Rodgers

 

he signed a huge chunk of the squad, and importantly a huge chunk of the bloat, any claim of a need for a rebuild is ultimately a confession that him and Congerton ****ed it big time

 

 

Came on this thread to see if anyone had mentioned Congerton yet. Took years for Hanover and Sunderland to recover from his periods in charge of recruitment. You might argue they never have.

 

Why Rodgers trusted him so much, I’ve no idea. We’ll see where Atalanta are in a few years, though hopefully he wasn’t there long enough to inflict lasting damage. He’s now (probably) earning shitloads in Saudi.

[LVFox]

Rodgers was right, but it was his own making. He had spent plenty of money on dross that year and then came out saying we needed a refresh, when in essence, we had attempted that in the summer.

 

The board should have noticed it wasn't going to end well at all from that point and got rid not long after.

 

However, that team was more than good enough to stay up when you look at the names in it. Rodgers is mainly culpable as it was his team and they weren't fit enough or organised enough.

 

The board royally ****ed it by not sacking him sooner and by being arrogant enough to think Dean Smith would do the job

[Gravel]

My retro glasses are not rose tinted.

 

The squad may not have been strong enough to battle near the top in his last season but should easily have been able to finish mid table.

 

It felt like Rodgers at times played the likes of Ward just to make a point like a dirty protest.

 

Board very culpable too though by being much too slow to act on binning the mardy scheming goblin.

[BenTheFox]

He was right about the squad needing a refresh and not being supported in the summer of 2022, the issue is he'd played a large part in why that was the case. That squad still had enough to do better than getting relegated but he had checked out and was wanting his payoff. 

 

It really bothers me that if he had resigned in 2022, everyone would have benefitted, including Rodgers, and we would look back at his time here far more fondly. 

[Mickyblueeyes]

Top and Rudkin are despicable individuals who have destroyed this club and my hate is beyond anything I feel for anyone else. Top most of all. A complete *****, useless son, owner, business man etc etc. I don’t think there’s anything worthwhile about him. No doubt like others he let Rodgers down big time. 
 

However, Rodgers and that team should never have gone down. Yeah, like others he was lied to etc. but he gave up and lacked professionalism. Goes for a lot of that team too. So probably not as bad as is was back then in terms of feeling.
 

a lot of that team have rebuilt their careers. Away from the Top love in at this club and we are unfortunately stuck with the bastard who continues to destroy everything good about the club. The environment created by him is horrendous. 

[CL Fox]

Should have just given him what he wanted and taken a 6 point deduction.

[Levi Port]

Squad became stagnant, to many players here for to long and achieved all they could with us. (Post Forest interview) We needed to move them, get fresh faces in to help him maintain respect and hunger in that dressing room. All good managers have to overhaul the squad every three years. We didn’t, player became entitled and lazy and we plumited. We’re still suffering from this.

 

His record of signings for us though was horrific so who is to say those we could have brought it would have been good.
 

Although Lookman would have stayed and Charles de Ketelaere would have signed, the best two players in Seria A… So I blaim the board. 
 

We just simply cannot move players on, it’s pathetic. 

[dmayne7]

Absolutely hasn't softened at all. Probably got worse if anything. Everything about him, his decisions and the way he acted (blaming fans for being making the players nervous at Brighton a particular favourite, when we were actually yelling at the players to boot it clear instead of pissing around at the back).

 

I think you need to split his tenure in 2 as his first 18-24 months would put him up there as one of the very best managers we've had but the second half was failure beyond anything else, including the likes of Taylor. We all know the board are crap and it probably would have ended up like this eventually, but if Rodgers hadn't dismantled everything good we did, absolutely bottled CL football again (though I let him off the first time because it wasn't unexpected and injuries to certain players) and wasted all that money on players he didn't use, then our medium term future could have been completely different. We really did have a chance to completely separate ourselves from the other clubs outside the big 6 for at least a 10 year period or so, but look at us now. On the way back to being a yo-yo club at best.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Daniel Ward

Daniel Amartey 

Too hot

Not backed 

 

 

The bloke was a (I got banned for an entire year on here for expressing my thoughts on him) 

[dmayne7]

1 minute ago, CL Fox said:

Should have just given him what he wanted and taken a 6 point deduction.

Yeah and still got relegated. He had his own way so often which was the problem. Well done for being a total narcissist and it shows in his performances when things go wrong.

 

The only sensible outcome was sacking him at the start of the season after that awful run or to be honest, probably when we went out of the Conference League (pathetic that we didn't win that given we were the joint favourites for the Europa League and crashed out at the group stage). Sure we were 17th or 18th in the expected points table that season but somehow finished 8th. That tells you all you need to know; dreadful management being outweighed by excellent individuals.

[Ashley]

Some of his comments were bang on but to play Ward over and over? First thing that changed when he was sacked was Iversen coming in. We could see it so how couldn't he unless he was doing it to prove a point - if so then he's a bigger cvnt than we first thought. 

 

Realistically there's a lot of failings over the past few years. One of the main ones was failing to getting Adomola Lookman - look at him now we spent money on VK, Souttar and the loan fee for Tete so money was there. 

 

Even Forest and Everton overspent, then took the punishments a season later i believe we could have done similar. What's worse a few points deducted a season later and staying up or the relegation? 

 

On the latter I'm surprised that more clubs haven't gone down the over spending route especially someone like Newcastle who are the ricest club ever but they cant spend big. They have an XI that competes very well. Chuck 100/200m at it take the points deduction for that season they'll easily stay up anyway and likely still hit Europe(Conference League) with said deduction then go again?

[RowlattsFox]

Rodgers should have been sacked sooner and replacement been earmarked ahead of it. We'd have stayed up comfortably then. 

However I can see why they tried to give Rodgers as long as he could to turn it around, can't work out if it's laziness to replace or blind loyalty. 

 

It's a shame we finished 5th by ****ing up top 4 as it does diminish that achievement. Finishing 5th seems decades off now. 

[Freeman's Wharfer]

He started the fire and then purposely started to fan the flames to get it going quicker.

 

Top and co then didn’t put it out. Maresca poured a bit of water on it until it was smouldering (and warning it could reignite any moment).

 

Top and co then failed to keep pouring water on it and it’s really taken hold now to the extent it’s a bigger fire than before.

 

But Brendan Rodgers started the fire. Don’t ever forget that.

[Lambert09]

21 minutes ago, CL Fox said:

Should have just given him what he wanted and taken a 6 point deduction.

In that scenario, Everton finally would have dropped and they likely got a point deduction when they returned. Our future would have been secured.

 

Especially when you consider it would have been lookman coming in 

Edited 3 March by Lambert09

[Corky]

If we had been properly coached we could have put this team out:

 

Iversen

 

Castagne

Soyuncu

Evans

Justin

 

Tielemans 

Ndidi 

 

Barnes

Maddison 

Dewsbury-Hall

 

Vardy 

 

Chuck in a few decent squad players and there is more than enough to finish comfortably. That relegation came exactly at the wrong time with our overspending and the tightening of the financial rules. We were so far ahead of Fulham, Bournemouth, Brentford etc that survival and not getting into PSR difficulty would have seen us ok.

 

We have lost it in three years and are very unlikely to get back to that level. 

 

 

[CL Fox]

23 minutes ago, Lambert09 said:

In that scenario, Everton finally would have dropped and they likely got a point deduction when they returned. Our future would have been secured.

 

Especially when you consider it would have been lookman coming in 

I think it was a real sliding doors moment for us. The approach in that summer was the mistake of all mistakes.

 

Either back him or sack him - they did neither.

[inckley fox]

19 minutes ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

He started the fire and then purposely started to fan the flames to get it going quicker.

 

Top and co then didn’t put it out. Maresca poured a bit of water on it until it was smouldering (and warning it could reignite any moment).

 

Top and co then failed to keep pouring water on it and it’s really taken hold now to the extent it’s a bigger fire than before.

 

But Brendan Rodgers started the fire. Don’t ever forget that.

As many have said, it's a complex picture without a great deal of black and white.

 

Rodgers didn't start the fire, at least not in straightforward terms. In your analogy, the kerosene was first spilled years ago but nobody had got round to dropping the match! Strategies which served us very well for a long while - the financial gambles that depended on us not going down, even the insistence that the only 'sustainable' football was that represented by possession-obsessives like Puel and Rodgers (or even Sven, and later Maresca) - were all there to see long before Vichai's passing.

 

As regards that fixation, it increasingly led to us seeking ready-to-roll PL players who actually had the composure and pedigree to manage possession, rather than the sorts of quick or direct or physical player we'd initially succeeded with. They're expensive, they're often a wee bit older, and when you're a club like us you're unlikely to get access to the best of the brand. Add to that a succession of scouts with questionable track records, and you can see how that might become a problem (maybe I'm wrong, but it's probably easier to sharpen up physical attributes than it is to teach intelligence and vision, so we ended up bringing in guys who were not quite as good, and never would be, at possession football than the sort of player we'd previously been bringing in to play a more direct game.)

 

And, of course, the game is changing. The luminaries of 2010, when KP came in, were almost all positional managers. That's no longer as clear-cut.

 

So the financial gambles which paid off when we recruited under, say, Puel, and the sorts of players we successfully signed for the game he and his successors preferred, quickly became a problem when the recruitment went awry. Perhaps we'd never have won an FA Cup without that approach, and perhaps a different approach would have brought a different set of problems, but like I said, none of it's black and white. As an example, in your analogy Maresca briefly quells the flames, but to others he's a manager who largely misspent his funds (especially with a view to bringing in young players that a good coach might be able to craft into PL players), who played a style which we'd never be able to replicate in the top flight, and who jumped ship after a promotion which the whole world and his dog had down as a shoo-in. To me he lit a ten foot long fuse and rolled around gaily in the kerosene until the moment it got anywhere near.

 

Okay, I do agree that Rodgers' poor recruitment and sheer negligence in the relegation season really lit that touchpaper of yours. He'd argue that the board did that themselves by getting their figures wrong, but I for one didn't expect to see us splashing out after a season in which we'd spent big for zero reward. So I'll grant you that one! 

 

Even so, I think you can find the roots of the downturn in all kinds of places - in strategies which initially worked out wonderfully, both footballing and financial, as well as in those warning signs, like a minor financial breach in 2014, or the god-awful recruitment of 2016. I recognise there's a strong anti-Rodgers argument, perhaps strong enough to cancel out the 'pro' argument all together, and yet I can't accept that we'd have cruised along merrily if he'd just had the decency to evaporate back in 2021.

[jayfox26]

1 hour ago, CL Fox said:

Should have just given him what he wanted and taken a 6 point deduction.

You think if we'd have given Rodgers and his mate Congerton a penny more to spend, all we'd have ended up with is a 6 point deduction? We'd have ended up with even more shite in our squad on long contracts that we can't shift. The only player we should have signed was Lookman. Anything else Rodgers and Congerton would have cocked up would have been more heinous then Bertrand and Vestergaard 

[jim5000]

Rodgers signed Soumare. For that I will never forgive him.