Martin Out

[Ric Flair]

Still for all my issues with him before he joined here and for what i've seen so far, I hope he just starts winning some football matches for us. The rest will take care of itself. It really isn't very difficult at this level and yet he's spiralling already.

[shen]

2 hours ago, orangecity23 said:

In addition to this, you could see him try stuff tactically, it failed, then he would adjust it until it worked. That system change to wing backs was tried unsuccessfully against Hull with de laet and Konchesky, before it was adjusted into Schlupp and Albrighton as more attacking wing backs. The 5 at the back was something he had tried for a bit in the championship at various points as well.

 

Meanwhile, Martin keeps getting done over tactically, but never tries to vary anything in his approach, even things like same build up and style but with modifications to the shape, or going for slightly longer goal kicks etc.

Even Maresca, who's the most dogmatic manager we've had besides Martin, was flexible in the way he tweaked the formation and personnel. Even allowing for the fast break when it was on (that KDH winner against WBA stands out as a glorious moment).

 

5 minutes ago, CarolinaFox said:

The fact that the "Martin Out" Thread was started in June just proves my point. Some supporters were never going to be convinced by Martin, regardless of what he does. Every decision he makes, or doesn't make, becomes further confirmation of an opinion they've already formed. Winning can paper over that for a while, but the first bad result will see many of those same criticisms return almost immediately.

 

Given how loud that sentiment has been among sections of the fanbase, I don't really have a problem with Martin pushing back. He's a human being, after all. Most people would defend themselves if their work and character were being publicly questioned. The important thing is that he did so respectfully and without personal attacks.

 

And that's what I don't understand about the criticism of this exchange. What was the response people were expecting? For him to say, "You're right, I'm a terrible manager and I should resign"? There was never an answer he could give that would satisfy people who had already made up their minds. So how exactly was he supposed to win that interaction?

Martin was unpopular among fans long before he joined, which the club would (or should) have known. That already puts him at a disadvantage, absolutely.

It is only exacerbated by our catastrophic double relegation and the understandable discontent towards the board/ownership.

 

So yes, he needed to hit the ground running to quiet down the murmurs. But he hasn't. And that is partly down to himself, which he should but isn't willing to admit.

 

This is what he should've said to the fan. Admit he's got it wrong, promise to work on a solution and employ some humility instead of being bullish and ignoring the fan's concerns. That would have won him a bit of respect.

 

Instead he's currently proving that all those who dismissed him out of hand were right about him.

[Stavros81]

2 hours ago, Foxmeister said:

When he said we’ve been sh*t since Maresca left, I wish the fan had said “so have you”.

That’s a sacking in itself 

[Muzzy_no7]

I’ve never said this before, but I’d genuinely rather we lost tomorrow if it meant getting this cr*p over and done with quicker.

 

Yes, I feel ashamed for even thinking that, but at the same time, I’ve reached a point where I just don’t care anymore.

 

Is this genuinely what it’s come to? Apparently so.

[cropstonfox]

12.5% win rate.

Unacceptable needs to win 4 out of the next 5 or get the sack front our shit club.

[Collymore]

I imagine Martin in this apocalyptic like future world - it's his post season interview where he's won every game of the season by default as society has crumbled, every other surviving human is fighting for survival but he's managed to finally get his brand of football to work.

 

He turns up to the press conference and there's a single camera with a red light flashing there and he says "told you it would eventually work" 

 

It doesn't even feel like it's about Leicester anymore, if he wins (like he might every 5 games or so) it's so much now about him and his style winning. 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Collymore

[CarolinaFox]

50 minutes ago, shen said:

Even Maresca, who's the most dogmatic manager we've had besides Martin, was flexible in the way he tweaked the formation and personnel. Even allowing for the fast break when it was on (that KDH winner against WBA stands out as a glorious moment).

 

Martin was unpopular among fans long before he joined, which the club would (or should) have known. That already puts him at a disadvantage, absolutely.

It is only exacerbated by our catastrophic double relegation and the understandable discontent towards the board/ownership.

 

So yes, he needed to hit the ground running to quiet down the murmurs. But he hasn't. And that is partly down to himself, which he should but isn't willing to admit.

 

This is what he should've said to the fan. Admit he's got it wrong, promise to work on a solution and employ some humility instead of being bullish and ignoring the fan's concerns. That would have won him a bit of respect.

 

Instead he's currently proving that all those who dismissed him out of hand were right about him.

Isn't that a bit unrealistic given how his teams typically start off? Martin's bang on form for his style of football. He's never had a team that started winning immediately when he came in. Its not how his brand of football operates. Its has a higher learning curve, that requires time to embed.  So I don't think Martin sees an issue with the results right now, which is why he's pointed the fan back to what he's seeing: evidence that we are playing the way he wants and expects will turn into results. You're expecting him to have the same opinion you do of the football we're playing, and he doesn't. 

Edited 3 hours ago by CarolinaFox

[smudgerfox]

55 minutes ago, CarolinaFox said:

 

The fact that the "Martin Out" Thread was started in June just proves my point. Some supporters were never going to be convinced by Martin, regardless of what he does. Every decision he makes, or doesn't make, becomes further confirmation of an opinion they've already formed. Winning can paper over that for a while, but the first bad result will see many of those same criticisms return almost immediately.

 

 

The resistance to the appointment of RM was/is fully justified. Yes, right from the start. Unless you believe in little green elves at the bottom of the garden.

 

His actual managerial record does not justify his reputation. He was mid-table at MK Dons and Swansea, scraped the Championship play offs in Southampton, then was a disaster in the Premier League for Saints ,and similar in the SPL at Rangers. A manager with that record should be willing at least to adapt their style. He is not and has stated many times that he is not. 

 

Furthermore, the style of football he is so wedded to, is easily combatted by teams with less talent but who possess a determination to stick to a rigid gameplan. We saw this on Tuesday and we have seen it multiple times, already this season. 

 

Consequently, those of us who criticised the appointment of RM at the start, are week by week, being proved right, in real time.It says a lot that a large section of the fanbase predicted what the people who are paid handsomely to run our club, could not predict. I would love him to succeed. But in all honesty, I simply cannot see any circumstances in which that will happen. 

 

[shen]

1 hour ago, CarolinaFox said:

Isn't that a bit unrealistic given how his teams typically start off? Martin's bang on form for his style of football. He's never had a team that started winning immediately when he came in. Its not how his brand of football operates. Its has a higher learning curve, that requires time to embed.  So I don't think Martin sees an issue with the results right now, which is why he's pointed the fan back to what he's seeing: evidence that we are playing the way he wants and expects will turn into results. You're expecting him to have the same opinion you do of the football we're playing, and he doesn't. 

Why is it unrealistic? I didn't even look into how Martin starts out at clubs, but that is even more fuel to the side that argue he should've never been appointed in the first place. 

It's pretty simple - we need promotion this season. Nothing else will do. Taking a huge gamble on a flailing manager whose style takes time to be embedded is not a luxury we have.

 

incidentally, his style is often compared to that of Maresca, who wasted no time getting results with players who certainly weren't used to it. It's only natural that fans who witnessed this in very recent memory should have similar expectations in a similar situation.

I completely accept that he has a different view of how football should be played. I personally enjoy high tempo football (possession or direct, doesn't matter) more, but I can accept anything that brings results. 

 

There is plenty of evidence we're playing a brand of football that currently is very inefficient. It's not bringing results. And since it hasn't brought him results for a very, very long time, not even with a side he coached for more than a season, I don't see the evidence that points to things suddenly turning around.

Edited 2 hours ago by shen

[Bourbon Fox]

2 hours ago, CarolinaFox said:

Some supporters were never going to be convinced by Martin, regardless of what he does.

In think if we were top of the league there'd be no problem.

 

Why hasn't he tried that? Is he stupid?

[murphy]

2 hours ago, CarolinaFox said:

 

The fact that the "Martin Out" Thread was started in June just proves my point. Some supporters were never going to be convinced by Martin, regardless of what he does. Every decision he makes, or doesn't make, becomes further confirmation of an opinion they've already formed. Winning can paper over that for a while, but the first bad result will see many of those same criticisms return almost immediately.

 

Given how loud that sentiment has been among sections of the fanbase, I don't really have a problem with Martin pushing back. He's a human being, after all. Most people would defend themselves if their work and character were being publicly questioned. The important thing is that he did so respectfully and without personal attacks.

 

And that's what I don't understand about the criticism of this exchange. What was the response people were expecting? For him to say, "You're right, I'm a terrible manager and I should resign"? There was never an answer he could give that would satisfy people who had already made up their minds. So how exactly was he supposed to win that interaction?

It started before that.

 

Chants at Bournemouth when we were previously linked with him should have told the club that he is not wanted here.

 

Fans resistance to this appointment is entirely justified because:

 

A) He has been a consistent and soectacular failure.

 

B) His football is terribly dull.

 

Marins football is a leveller.  Anyone can see that.  Lesser teams can get results precisely because of the way he sets us up.

[CarolinaFox]

28 minutes ago, shen said:

Why is it unrealistic? I didn't even look into how Martin starts out at clubs, but that is even more fuel to the side that argue he should've never been appointed in the first place. 

It's pretty simple - we need promotion this season. Nothing else will do. Taking a huge gamble on a flailing manager whose style takes time to be embedded is not a luxury we have.

 

incidentally, his style is often compared to that of Maresca, who wasted no time getting results with players who certainly weren't used to it. It's only natural that fans who witnessed this in very recent memory should have similar expectations in a similar situation.

I completely accept that he has a different view of how football should be played. I personally enjoy high tempo football (possession or direct, doesn't matter) more, but I can accept anything that brings results. 

 

There is plenty of evidence we're playing a brand of football that currently is very inefficient. It's not bringing results. And since it hasn't brought him results for a very, very long time, not even with a side he coached for more than a season, I don't see the evidence that points to things suddenly turning around.

You said he would have to "hit the ground running" what would that look like in your eyes? Does that mean winning every game? 80 percent? 

[Richmondfox]

11 minutes ago, CarolinaFox said:

You said he would have to "hit the ground running" what would that look like in your eyes? Does that mean winning every game? 80 percent? 

Is there something you are seeing that most of us are missing or the stats aren’t showing? 

 

If we played like Oxford or Stockport we would batter this league. Keep the ball away from the keeper at the back and get it forwards quickly with support. Pretty simple stuff. 
 

We are happy to pass backwards no matter the danger, even worse waiting for danger to happen to try and play out.  we get to the box and the players suddenly want 10 touches too many.and turn back. 

 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

2 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Still for all my issues with him before he joined here and for what i've seen so far, I hope he just starts winning some football matches for us. The rest will take care of itself. It really isn't very difficult at this level and yet he's spiralling already.

I want him to go on a 25 game unbeaten run. Because ultimately it's good for the club. But watching his presser from earlier I just don't believe it.

[shen]

25 minutes ago, CarolinaFox said:

You said he would have to "hit the ground running" what would that look like in your eyes? Does that mean winning every game? 80 percent? 

We have 9 points from 7 games, winning 2 and losing 3 including a hammering 4-0 at home. This should never ever happen at this level. 

"Hitting the ground running" means we get around two points per game on average to have promotion form. That is the target we have to hit. 

[Rubbersoul]

That fan recording his conversation with Martin should’ve simply just asked when are we going to start winning 

[21st Century Fox]

Having him as manager is deliberately handicapping ourselves. Any normal manager would just set the team up in a tried and tested manner that would give you the best chance to get out of this league.

 

We’re instead choosing to indulge an extremely limited and delusional man with potentially the club’s future on the line for absolutely no reason other than our absentee owner still thinks the only way to play is like the team who successfully managed to play that way through financial doping on a monumental scale.

[CarolinaFox]

4 minutes ago, shen said:

We have 9 points from 7 games, winning 2 and losing 3 including a hammering 4-0 at home. This should never ever happen at this level. 

"Hitting the ground running" means we get around two points per game on average to have promotion form. That is the target we have to hit. 

Thanks for the clarification. I guess where we disagree is on what was realistic to expect this early on. 

 

Two points per game is promotion form over the course of a season. That's the end target. If the expectation was that we'd already be averaging two points per game after 10 (ish) matches, that feels a bit harsh to me because his teams have always needed time to get going because of the high learning curve of playing his style of football. You're essentially expecting a new manager, a new squad, and a completely different way of playing to all click immediately. In most sports, when a team is rebuilding and learning a new system, there's usually an adjustment period before you see the best version of that team.

 

That doesn't mean the results don't matter or that Leicester shouldn't be aiming for promotion. It just means I think the expectation of being at full speed by October is probably unrealistic given the fact that his teams need time before performances and results really take off. 

 

At the end of the day I'm not saying I wanted Martin, or that I love everything about his football. But I'm trying to stay optimistic. We all love this club and want it to succeed. I think we've sometimes got to embrace change as a process of ups and downs, accept that we aren't in control, and try to stay positive. 

[Richmondfox]

28 minutes ago, Rubbersoul said:

That fan recording his conversation with Martin should’ve simply just asked when are we going to start winning 

Or just break down why his style isn’t working. 

[winteriscoming]

Any other manager in this league and I include those who’ve been sacked would have us at least in the top 6 by now. 
This squad under anyone half decent would have us into at least double figures points wise. 
The longer he stays the less likely we’ll go up. 
4 wins in 34 games and that includes beating an under 21 team. 

[jv1]

This thread is wild - bring on the 3pts tomorrow 🦊 

[markko]

So we have had 135 shots. sadly Russell you do not get points for shots. You get them for stopping them at one end and scoring with them at the other. It really is that simple. Do we need to try and play like Spain and Man City to beat teams at this level? Again I will let you into a secret RM, we are not either!!

[CornwallFox]

3 hours ago, smudgerfox said:

 

The resistance to the appointment of RM was/is fully justified. Yes, right from the start. Unless you believe in little green elves at the bottom of the garden.

 

His actual managerial record does not justify his reputation. He was mid-table at MK Dons and Swansea, scraped the Championship play offs in Southampton, then was a disaster in the Premier League for Saints ,and similar in the SPL at Rangers. A manager with that record should be willing at least to adapt their style. He is not and has stated many times that he is not. 

 

Furthermore, the style of football he is so wedded to, is easily combatted by teams with less talent but who possess a determination to stick to a rigid gameplan. We saw this on Tuesday and we have seen it multiple times, already this season. 

 

Consequently, those of us who criticised the appointment of RM at the start, are week by week, being proved right, in real time.It says a lot that a large section of the fanbase predicted what the people who are paid handsomely to run our club, could not predict. I would love him to succeed. But in all honesty, I simply cannot see any circumstances in which that will happen. 

 

On the flip side, at Swansea he started terribly then went on a run that pushed them up towards the play offs.

At Southampton he started terribly then went on a run then ended in promotion. 

At rangers he started terribly and ended quickly.

At Leicester he's started terribly, let's see what comes next. 

Edited 3 minutes ago by CornwallFox