Martin Out

[jv1]

10 minutes ago, shen said:

See, this is where you show your ignorance. Every fan wants the team to be successful. Why is it that some just cannot understand that the 'negativity' is an expression of passion for the club? It's because people want success for the club, not because they wish for it all to crash and burn.

You can have an opinion about people being overcritical, but it's certainly not nonsense that is being argued on here - it's backed up with observations, stats and facts.

Regarding Martin's argument with the fan, the best you can say about him is that it's not a good look. Showing defiance is fine, but when you deflect and shirk responsibility - as the manager - then you are not a good leader, in any business.

It really reads like you're stubborn and unwilling to see or hear the criticism. You say you're not a happy clapper, but is your hope based on something tangible - if so, I'll happily hear you out - or is it just hope against better judgement? I understand if people get worn down by constant negativity, but not recognising the issues is not a way to deal with it either.

Read it again- ‘SOME of the utter negative nonsense’ 

 

not all of it - when it’s justified there is no argument - silly defensive errors , no bite in final third , to many passes in areas that don’t hurt the oppo - all valid and we could talk all day on it 

 

calling him a pr’ick continuously- all the personal

stuff and abuse which there is absolutely loads of and it’s vile 

 

that’s what I’m talking about mate - that’s not ok 

 

constructive debate on tactics and style of play if it be positive or negative is absolutely 100% fine as we all see football differently- the rest is not ok 

 

[jv1]

1 minute ago, adejo92 said:

You've had a stinker.

 

Get your nappy changed and go for a nap or something.

Keep spouting the negative tripe pal - and putting laughing emojis at the end of your own messages - have a great day 

[adejo92]

Just now, jv1 said:

Keep spouting the negative tripe pal - and putting laughing emojis at the end of your own messages - have a great day 

Thanks 'pal'

 

You have a great day too.

 

[shen]

4 minutes ago, jv1 said:

 

Read it again- ‘SOME of the utter negative nonsense’ 

 

not all of it - when it’s justified there is no argument - silly defensive errors , no bite in final third , to many passes in areas that don’t hurt the oppo - all valid and we could talk all day on it 

 

calling him a pr’ick continuously- all the personal

stuff and abuse which there is absolutely loads of and it’s vile 

 

that’s what I’m talking about mate - that’s not ok 

 

constructive debate on tactics and style of play if it be positive or negative is absolutely 100% fine as we all see football differently- the rest is not ok 

 

But that's a much more nuanced - and very different - point to what you wrote earlier.

We can agree that personal abuse is overstepping the line.
I personally believe it's because it's much simpler and more cathartic to just vent abuse - doesn't make it right - but I ignore it all the same. 
I'd much prefer civil debate both ways.

But out of interest, where do you stand on Martin? You want to be supportive, but are you supportive of the football he has us playing? And are you seeing something that I'm not that makes you believe he can turn it around?
 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

People expecting journos to ask about the video will be disappointed. Tony's briefing before the questions will make it very clear what's off limits

[AjcW]

4 hours ago, fox_favourite said:

I don't understand why this bothers you so much? I'm not a Russ fan, but he's distance himself from the crap years to before he arrived. He wasn't here for those relegations. If he referred to you in terms of since he's been here then yes, that is a worry. 

 

He's referring to the past which he wasn't apart of and separating the past with the present. I have no issue with that. It doesn't mean that I agree that we're not still utterly awful, but I just don't get the anger so much in it. He's not wrong either.

 

 

Don't think i've shown any anger in that statement? Just dissapointing. There's evidence of plenty of managers in the past taking on car crashes and saying "we have to be better, we haven't been good enough" 

 

He's just the latest in a long line coming here who don't care and have seen an easy pay day.

[jv1]

21 minutes ago, shen said:

But that's a much more nuanced - and very different - point to what you wrote earlier.

We can agree that personal abuse is overstepping the line.
I personally believe it's because it's much simpler and more cathartic to just vent abuse - doesn't make it right - but I ignore it all the same. 
I'd much prefer civil debate both ways.

But out of interest, where do you stand on Martin? You want to be supportive, but are you supportive of the football he has us playing? And are you seeing something that I'm not that makes you believe he can turn it around?
 

Yep that’s all fair enough and good to have a proper grown up chat  - I find myself trying to balance the argument some times when it gets to negative and I really don’t like the personal stuff - I actually think he comes across as a nice enough bloke - maybe a bit of an ego but he is a professional football manager - I don’t have an issue with that but obviously he has to walk the walk if he is talking the talk 

 

iv also been very close to booing a few times this season so I’m no saint on negativity just to be clear but again trying to find some balance 

 

my stance at the minute is he needs a bit of time (which I know is difficult for many to accept) - it’s not all been bad - having to deal with the crazy turnover of players this summer that isn’t normal in any way and then trying to get over to them how he wants them to play and getting plenty of the kids in the team is a positive  - I think we need to at least give him the opportunity to see if he can make it work - we play some really nice stuff at times but I also get all the arguments about the final thirds - it doesn’t feel like we really have any real penetration at one end and we are asking guys to play football at the back who aren’t comfortable with it - both of those things are on him however I do think we will see improvement- maybe I’m overly optimistic but the more the new 11 play together I believe they will get better and so will results - that’s where I stand - I know it’s a different place to you and plenty of others but cheers for the grown up chat - appreciated 

 

where are your thoughts ?

Edited 12 hours ago by jv1

[harpendenfox]

By all accounts, Martin is both charming, and arrogant. No problem him having a style of play. But you would like to think those above him, including James McCarron, the sporting director, might give him a review, acknowledge what he's done well (staff refresh, show faith in youngsters), but talk about the weaknesses (poor points return, lack of flexibility). The key, in this system, is to know when to 'invite the press' (bleurgh), and when to hoof it. Don't be predictable, or else you are far too easy to play against.

[st albans fox]

4 minutes ago, harpendenfox said:

By all accounts, Martin is both charming, and arrogant. No problem him having a style of play. But you would like to think those above him, including James McCarron, the sporting director, might give him a review, acknowledge what he's done well (staff refresh, show faith in youngsters), but talk about the weaknesses (poor points return, lack of flexibility). The key, in this system, is to know when to 'invite the press' (bleurgh), and when to hoof it. Don't be predictable, or else you are far too easy to play against.

We did go longer a few times on Tuesday 

but that doesn’t affect the number of unnecessary passes around opponents box. 

 

 

[Globalfox]

1 hour ago, Oldblueyes said:

Martin summed it up at a post match interview after the last defeat:

We keep making mistakes at the back which doesn't help.

 

We struggle to put the ball in the net with the amount of chances we make.

 

However we had ,(70%) of possession in middle of the pitch, which means we are improving every week.

 

Bullshot.

 

That’s the point he fails to accept he cannot coach the defensive limitations out of them nor can he coach in the ability to convert possession and shots into opportunities and goals. The we were shit is an incomplete statement it should be you have been shit and we still are. Then what is he going to do to fix it?

[DAS Boot]

9 minutes ago, jv1 said:

Yep that’s all fair enough and good to have a proper grown up chat  - I find myself trying to balance the argument some times when it gets to negative and I really don’t like the personal stuff - I actually think he comes across as a nice enough bloke - maybe a bit of an ego but he is a professional football manager - I don’t have an issue with that but obviously he has to walk the walk if he is talking the talk 

 

iv also been very close to booing a few times this season so I’m no saint on negativity just to be clear but again trying to find some balance 

 

my stance at the minute is he needs a bit of time (which I know is difficult for many to accept) - it’s not all been bad - having to deal with the crazy turnover of players this summer that isn’t normal in any way and then trying to get over to them how he wants them to play - I think we need to at least give him the opportunity to see if he can make it work - we play some really nice stuff at times but I also get all the arguments about the final thirds - it doesn’t feel like we really have any real penetration at one end and we are asking guys to play football at the back who aren’t comfortable with it - both of those things are on him however I do think we will see improvement- maybe I’m overly optimistic but the more the new 11 play together I believe they will get better and so will results - that’s where I stand - I know it’s a different place to you and plenty of others but cheers for the grown up chat - appreciated 

Oh get a room GAYLORDS!

[shen]

2 minutes ago, jv1 said:

Yep that’s all fair enough and good to have a proper grown up chat  - I find myself trying to balance the argument some times when it gets to negative and I really don’t like the personal stuff - I actually think he comes across as a nice enough bloke - maybe a bit of an ego but he is a professional football manager - I don’t have an issue with that but obviously he has to walk the walk if he is talking the talk 

 

iv also been very close to booing a few times this season so I’m no saint on negativity just to be clear but again trying to find some balance 

 

my stance at the minute is he needs a bit of time (which I know is difficult for many to accept) - it’s not all been bad - having to deal with the crazy turnover of players this summer that isn’t normal in any way and then trying to get over to them how he wants them to play - I think we need to at least give him the opportunity to see if he can make it work - we play some really nice stuff at times but I also get all the arguments about the final thirds - it doesn’t feel like we really have any real penetration at one end and we are asking guys to play football at the back who aren’t comfortable with it - both of those things are on him however I do think we will see improvement- maybe I’m overly optimistic but the more the new 11 play together I believe they will get better and so will results - that’s where I stand - I know it’s a different place to you and plenty of others but cheers for the grown up chat - appreciated 

Re: Martin personally, does his exchange with the fan improve or worsen your view on him - or does it leave you unmoved?

Re: Martin's tactics, I don't really mind the slow and pondrous style, if it brings results. I very much enjoyed Maresca's style and found it mostly potent. There were lapses and during the last third of the season, we struggled to find the gaps and create the chances, but on the whole I didn't mind the tactical idea.

With Martin I feel that the payoff isn't there. If it requires a 'bedding in' period and a settled XI, then I think the choice of tactic actually makes it worse. We've already seen the amount of rotation there's been either because of injury, transfer speculation or Martin not knowing his strongest squad yet. His lack of pragmatism is very costly here - it's not like we can afford wasting a season in League One - we could barely afford wasting it in the Championship. You can absolutely think of a way to adjust things to better suit the personnel and get results now and slowly introduce the more controlling style as the season progresses. 

The stats show we are very potent in the high press and we have enough pace in the team to hurt teams on the counter. Under Enzo we didn't spurn these opportunities when they presented themselves. Why would you completely negate such a potent threat by forcing us to play a certain way - especially when you need the result? I find that highly criticisable.

[harpendenfox]

8 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

We did go longer a few times on Tuesday 

but that doesn’t affect the number of unnecessary passes around opponents box. 

 

 

very true. My point is more that a Sporting Director should be able to have a grown up chat with the appointed manager, and suggest adaptations. Martin's weakness, it appears to me, is his inability to show flexibility. Yes he's the manager, but the Club should be managing him

[jv1]

10 minutes ago, shen said:

Re: Martin personally, does his exchange with the fan improve or worsen your view on him - or does it leave you unmoved?

Re: Martin's tactics, I don't really mind the slow and pondrous style, if it brings results. I very much enjoyed Maresca's style and found it mostly potent. There were lapses and during the last third of the season, we struggled to find the gaps and create the chances, but on the whole I didn't mind the tactical idea.

With Martin I feel that the payoff isn't there. If it requires a 'bedding in' period and a settled XI, then I think the choice of tactic actually makes it worse. We've already seen the amount of rotation there's been either because of injury, transfer speculation or Martin not knowing his strongest squad yet. His lack of pragmatism is very costly here - it's not like we can afford wasting a season in League One - we could barely afford wasting it in the Championship. You can absolutely think of a way to adjust things to better suit the personnel and get results now and slowly introduce the more controlling style as the season progresses. 

The stats show we are very potent in the high press and we have enough pace in the team to hurt teams on the counter. Under Enzo we didn't spurn these opportunities when they presented themselves. Why would you completely negate such a potent threat by forcing us to play a certain way - especially when you need the result? I find that highly criticisable.

Re the fan exchange - pretty unmoved- difficult situation and I didn’t think he said anything bad - if anything the fact he didn’t know he was being filmed he actually was pretty factual and came across ok 

 

re tactics - I actually think we are pretty close opinion wise 

 

bottom line it comes down to winning football matches and the jury is well and truly out on if he can make that happen - if we see an upturn in form then he will get the time he needs from fans and club - if not then he won’t - it’s that simple 

 

in the meantime we can all keep having our 2 cents on it and it looks like we have 3 buckets across the fan base - those slightly more with your opinion , those slightly more with mine and those that just hate him and aren’t having him at all full stop

[CornwallFox]

22 minutes ago, shen said:

Re: Martin personally, does his exchange with the fan improve or worsen your view on him - or does it leave you unmoved?

Re: Martin's tactics, I don't really mind the slow and pondrous style, if it brings results. I very much enjoyed Maresca's style and found it mostly potent. There were lapses and during the last third of the season, we struggled to find the gaps and create the chances, but on the whole I didn't mind the tactical idea.

With Martin I feel that the payoff isn't there. If it requires a 'bedding in' period and a settled XI, then I think the choice of tactic actually makes it worse. We've already seen the amount of rotation there's been either because of injury, transfer speculation or Martin not knowing his strongest squad yet. His lack of pragmatism is very costly here - it's not like we can afford wasting a season in League One - we could barely afford wasting it in the Championship. You can absolutely think of a way to adjust things to better suit the personnel and get results now and slowly introduce the more controlling style as the season progresses. 

The stats show we are very potent in the high press and we have enough pace in the team to hurt teams on the counter. Under Enzo we didn't spurn these opportunities when they presented themselves. Why would you completely negate such a potent threat by forcing us to play a certain way - especially when you need the result? I find that highly criticisable.

Under Enzo we had Vardy, Iheanacho, Mavididi looked like a footballer, Dewsbury-Hall hit his stride and Ndidi was too strong for opposition to handle. Our team is rather different now. 

[shen]

10 minutes ago, jv1 said:

Re the fan exchange - pretty unmoved- difficult situation and I didn’t think he said anything bad - if anything the fact he didn’t know he was being filmed he actually was pretty factual and came across ok 

 

re tactics - I actually think we are pretty close opinion wise 

 

bottom line it comes down to winning football matches and the jury is well and truly out on if he can make that happen - if we see an upturn in form then he will get the time he needs from fans and club - if not then he won’t - it’s that simple 

 

in the meantime we can all keep having our 2 cents on it and it looks like we have 3 buckets across the fan base - those slightly more with your opinion , those slightly more with mine and those that just hate him and aren’t having him at all full stop

We'll disagree on how he came across to the fan. Yes, he remained civil, as did the fan, but as pointed out, his 'facts' were wrong. I've said my views on the other things said and respect you have yours. 

I don't agree that the 'jury is out'. I personally think there is enough historical evidence now that persisting with the same method will not yield different results. IF the upturn doesn't come, then the question becomes how long until it's too late to salvage the season?

 

2 minutes ago, CornwallFox said:

Under Enzo we had Vardy, Iheanacho, Mavididi looked like a footballer, Dewsbury-Hall hit his stride and Ndidi was too strong for opposition to handle. Our team is rather different now. 

I didn't say the squads were comparable (nor is the opposition by the way). But there is an argument to be made that Enzo's squad was able to make the system work. Some think we have the strongest squad in the division - we certainly have the biggest budget. So squad-wise, we should be about as competitive as Enzo's squad in the Championship, but the player quality arguably makes the system more difficult to pull off.
On a side note, as pointed out earlier, Vardy really wasn't that good/vital for the first two thirds of that season and Ndidi was playing a very different role to what he was used to (with lots of fan scepticism).

[Foxmeister]

13 hours ago, Kp1984 said:

Your all entitled to your opinion but I’m behind Martin if you want to boo every game like clowns feel free 

Best place to be if you want him to pass you the ball.

[pmcla26]

Our best period was set up by Pearson having time to build something, yet we don’t seem to have any patience with managers these days. 
 

Look at Arteta, we might as well give him a bit of a chance to get his feet under the table instead of just keep hiring and firing repeatedly. 
 

The anger should be directed at the people above him for getting us into this mess, let’s give him half a chance to try get us out of it. He’s been here 5 minutes. 

[lcfcbluearmy]

14 hours ago, murphy said:

I expect we will win on Saturday which will only buy Martin some time and prolong the agony.

 

As matches tick by with RM in charge, a tipping point will come when we have to write off the season.

No we will lose and to make it worse we will be losing to a fairly local team managed by the mouthy idiot Robbie Savage

[shen]

1 hour ago, pmcla26 said:

Our best period was set up by Pearson having time to build something, yet we don’t seem to have any patience with managers these days. 
 

Look at Arteta, we might as well give him a bit of a chance to get his feet under the table instead of just keep hiring and firing repeatedly. 
 

The anger should be directed at the people above him for getting us into this mess, let’s give him half a chance to try get us out of it. He’s been here 5 minutes. 

The anger should absolutely be directed above Martin - but that doesn't mean he's a good fit or needs more time. The two aren't mutually exclusive. 

 

Pearson performed from the get go (were we ever below 6th at any point last time in League One?) and improved us steadily over time. Rightly or wrongly, the fans' expectations are vastly different today. We have an elite training ground and academy setup, we have a vastly bigger brand and financial muscle than we did then.

One look at Arteta's record shows you that he improved Arsenal season upon season. He reached two finals and won one in his first season too, so even he's had results that bought him the time needed to vindicate the club's patience with him.  

If performances showed Martin was getting a tune out of the squad, then by all means give him time. The results would eventually turn around. But the performances haven't shown this, either from casual observations or from underlying stats.

Edited 9 hours ago by shen

[foxfanazer]

Please can we never compare Russell Martin to Nigel Pearson on this forum ever again 

[murphy]

8 hours ago, CarolinaFox said:

Our fans criticized Enzo when he was winning so let's not pretend that RM winning football matches would change anything.

I don't remember a 140 page 'Enzo out' thread '7 games into the season.

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by murphy

[bovril]

3 hours ago, CornwallFox said:

Under Enzo we had Vardy, Iheanacho, Mavididi looked like a footballer, Dewsbury-Hall hit his stride and Ndidi was too strong for opposition to handle. Our team is rather different now. 

KDH's improvement was much down to Enzo, similarly Ndidi's form. He also managed our ageing stars Ricardo and Vardy well and generally seems to be a very good man manager whom the players loved. 

 

I realise the football wasn't always great but this constant diminishing of his abilities on this forum is a bit silly. 

 

 

[murphy]

9 hours ago, fox_favourite said:

I don't understand why this bothers you so much? I'm not a Russ fan, but he's distance himself from the crap years to before he arrived. He wasn't here for those relegations. If he referred to you in terms of since he's been here then yes, that is a worry. 

 

He's referring to the past which he wasn't apart of and separating the past with the present. I have no issue with that. It doesn't mean that I agree that we're not still utterly awful, but I just don't get the anger so much in it. He's not wrong either.

 

 

He may not be wrong, but what grates with me is that during the period that he says we were shit we won 18 league games.  During that same period Russell Martin won three times.

 

Funny how he can't turn any of that critical thinking to his own performance.  Arrogant bellend.

 

I've said this three times now but I'm going to continue to say it every time this is brought up.

[bovril]

8 minutes ago, murphy said:

He may not be wrong, but what grates with me is that during the period that he says we were shit we won 18 league games.  During that same period Russell Martin won three times.

 

Funny how he can't turn any of that critical thinking to his own performance.  Arrogant bellend.

 

I've said this three times now but I'm going to continue to say it every time this is brought up.

I've said it before but everything this guy says is projection. He has a lot of narcissistic characteristics.