Ice Hockey

[OntarioFox]

I've seen my fair share of Ice Hockey games, both here and in Canada, and I've never seen anything like it.

It's just absolutely awful. I've had the displeasure of seeing the incident back more times than I'd ever want to on Elon Musk's cesspit of a website - practically unavoidable with how the algorithm forces things on you nowadays and doesn't even bother to try applying graphic content filtering before showing you. Searched for the NHL before? Here's a man getting his throat cut. A truly horrible thing to have pushed into your feed and a really damning indictment of how badly that website has been allowed to degenerate over the past year or so. 

All I'll say is - in all my years watching, I've never seen a player's skate end up that high off the surface unless they were being up-ended by another player, which Petgrave certainly wasn't. There's an argument to be made that the other player (Nieminan?) was checking him to put him out of sight and throw him off balance, but I'm not so sure. He had his eyes on Johnson the whole time, didn't even challenge for the puck. It's not unknown for legs to end up high, but he was leading with his, which I've never seen happen in my life without the player meaning to.

I don't believe for one second there was any intent to actually do him any serious damage, but to call it reckless is an understatement, not least with the Malarchuk incident such common knowledge to those who love the sport. Rough-housing is very much a part of Ice Hockey, and perhaps the aim was to knock Johnson off his feet and start a scrap, but the moment he lifts his leg he was playing with fire. The result was a tragedy and, unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if there are criminal proceedings brought against Petgrave regardless of the true intentions.

It's a dangerous sport as it is - but I'm not sure the law is going to look on it favourably if there was even a hint of intent to kick him, which it's hard to see it as anything but from the footage. Makes me think of the worryingly common occurence of blokes throwing one punch outside a pub, killing the other person and going to jail for manslaughter.

Edited 31 October 2023 by OntarioFox

[Hollism94]

It boggles my mind that anyone who hasn’t skated to a high level, or at least has a big, big interest in hockey, dares to have an opinion on whether this was intentional or not.

 

Not just on here of course, but all over the internet you’re seeing comments like “Haven’t ever been on the ice- I’m more of an F1 guy- but I did once have a cup of mulled wine at winter wonderland. Anyway he defo meant it. Lock him up.”.

 

Fwiw I’ve never managed to get more than 5 feet away from the edge of an ice rink. I wouldn’t have a clue how to interpret any leg movements or anything like that in a collision. I’ll remain openly ignorant on how exactly this tragedy happened.

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, Hollism94 said:

It boggles my mind that anyone who hasn’t skated to a high level, or at least has a big, big interest in hockey, dares to have an opinion on whether this was intentional or not.

 

Not just on here of course, but all over the internet you’re seeing comments like “Haven’t ever been on the ice- I’m more of an F1 guy- but I did once have a cup of mulled wine at winter wonderland. Anyway he defo meant it. Lock him up.”.

 

Fwiw I’ve never managed to get more than 5 feet away from the edge of an ice rink. I wouldn’t have a clue how to interpret any leg movements or anything like that in a collision. I’ll remain openly ignorant on how exactly this tragedy happened.

That is the internet, and I'm also guilty of this. I just don't believe that a person would go out to hurt another person in that way.

[EastAnglianFox]

Not one of those skating know it all‘s that are popping up online as I’ve never been on the ice at that level but I will continue to believe that no professional player would ever consider doing anything like that on purpose against an opponent.

 

But on the flip side, having attended hundreds of games over the years at that level and having never seen a skate above chest height regardless of how hard a hit/check a player has received, then in my opinion now, Matt Petgrave will have to answer to some very serious questions.

 

 

Edited 1 November 2023 by EastAnglianFox

[Wymsey]

42 minutes ago, EastAnglianFox said:

Not one of those know it all‘s as I’ve never been on the ice at that level and certainly will continue to believe that no professional player would ever consider doing anything close to that against an opponent.

 

But on the flip side, having attended hundreds of games over the years at that level and yes I have chosen to watch the online clips of the incident, then in my opinion now, Matt Petgrave will have to answer to some very serious questions.

 

 

 

Indeed.

 

Having just watched it, the amount of force that he put on the poor guy and how high the skate was was quite shocking in all honesty.

[LCFCJohn]

Those who are plastering that he is a murderer all over social media and making it a race thing are the pond life of society let’s be right.

 

I don’t know Ice Hockey well so don’t feel entitled to a view as said above. However, as also said above, what sports player is deliberately trying to do that to an opponent?

Maybe there’s a middle ground where he was trying to foul him and it went heavily wrong but that is for investigations to determine and this ‘guilty before proven innocent’ seems to be a very frustrating trait of society now that social media dictates things….

 

Being in Sheffield, I do know people who were there and have seen lots of people who were there’s views and it seems that of people who do know the sport and were in attendance, there is not a view of it being deliberate.

[Kilworthfox]

4 hours ago, LCFCJohn said:

Those who are plastering that he is a murderer all over social media and making it a race thing are the pond life of society let’s be right.

 

I don’t know Ice Hockey well so don’t feel entitled to a view as said above. However, as also said above, what sports player is deliberately trying to do that to an opponent?

Maybe there’s a middle ground where he was trying to foul him and it went heavily wrong but that is for investigations to determine and this ‘guilty before proven innocent’ seems to be a very frustrating trait of society now that social media dictates things….

 

Being in Sheffield, I do know people who were there and have seen lots of people who were there’s views and it seems that of people who do know the sport and were in attendance, there is not a view of it being deliberate.

Any comment about something that is not hockey or sport related, like race, is clearly irrelevant to this issue / incident, so we agree that this not worth investing anytime in considering.

 

However as someone who watches a lot of Hockey, I can say I have seen players get cut by blades previously, and they are always accidents that happen as part of the game, what the difference here is that the Steelers defenseman had his foot raised at head height at centre ice, I have never seen this action before, in this manner. For a player to have their foot so high, I'd say 100% of the time is because they have had contact with another player, which has lifted or imbalanced them to be out of control. The difference here also is that there appears there is a kicking motion towards Johnson. Now it certainly cannot be considered a murder, as this is not a premeditated attack. I can however believe that a highly frustrated competitor, can commit an out of character attack on an opponent, and cause an injury, even if it caused an injury which wasn't intended, certainly after a period of time of reflection would be deemed out of character. These skates are razor sharp!!! There is no way any player would consciously have their foot so high and kick an opponent without having a negative intent.

 

It is a very sad event, that has caused harm to all involved. I cant say if it is a deliberate kicking motion, I can not see how he is in this situation in the first place, but it should be investigated due to what the injury led to.

[STEVIE B]

The video is horrible. 

To raise a foot that high, knowing what's on the end of it & where it COULD end up is reckless to say the least. In my humble opinion.

 

I'm sure the inquiry will take time, everything is there to see.

The correct judgement will be reached eventually. 

 

Edited 1 November 2023 by STEVIE B

[Kilworthfox]

 

Question is can the Sharks finish 31st?  

One of the worst starts to a season ever, and clearly the 32nd best team in the NHL right now. 

 

Will it be Celebrini or Eiserman in the draft...

 

The good news is I have Miller & Petterson in my fantasy team 

 

[SemperEadem]

The Steelers have and I’m sure the Panthers too have handled this tragedy well. A lot of support has been offered to supporters and staff.

[spacemunky]

Well, the Leafs are certainly entertaining 

[Kilworthfox]

On 07/11/2023 at 02:22, spacemunky said:

Well, the Leafs are certainly entertaining 

Their defence is atrocious but at lest they aren't the Oilers. 

 

I think Woll will give them more good games than bd so I'm sure they will make the playoffs. 

[spacemunky]

2 hours ago, Kilworthfox said:

Their defence is atrocious but at lest they aren't the Oilers. 

 

I think Woll will give them more good games than bd so I'm sure they will make the playoffs. 

They'll make the playoffs, again.

 

But we all know what happens after that.

[Kilworthfox]

On 09/11/2023 at 23:12, spacemunky said:

They'll make the playoffs, again.

 

But we all know what happens after that.

Is it me or does John Tavares have the most monotone boring voices in the history of humanity? 

 

I imagine a fun time for him is looking at carpet samples. 

[Lionator]

.

Edited 14 November 2023 by Lionator
Misjudged

[bmt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-67419951

 

Arrest made over Adam Johnson death (manslaughter).

[Super_horns]

I guess someone reported the incident to the police and  they have to investigate.

[spacemunky]

Honestly didn't think it'd come to this.

 

I still believe there was no intent and that it was just a series of unfortunate events(happening at a very high speed) that lead to Adam's death.

 

I know that the player in question has a reputation as a

...I don't want to say 'dirty' player, but he's in that category of player that takes a lot of penalties and that is not unusual in hockey. Every team has that sort of player.

 

At the end of the day, he has to live with it and I'm glad steps are being taken to make the game safer, but it's a high speed game with big lads smashing into each other and there always some element of danger involved.

[Lionator]

Apologies for my last post. 

[MPH]

He swung his leg very high for there to

be no intent to injure..

[Babylon]

3 minutes ago, MPH said:

He swung his leg very high for there to

be no intent to injure..

Push someone and they bang their head and die you are getting a few years in prison quite likely whether you meant to or not 

 

It’s different here as it’s a physical sport, so proving it was anything outside of normal physical contact is almost impossible. I can’t see him getting done for it, unless he had at some point admitted kicking out at him to stop him. 
 

He didn’t mean to injure him I’m sure, but I really do think he went to block / trip him And it went disastrously wrong. The more and more I watch it, it’s not a natural movement from contact or balance. 

 

 

[bmt]

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

Push someone and they bang their head and die you are getting a few years in prison quite likely whether you meant to or not 

 

It’s different here as it’s a physical sport, so proving it was anything outside of normal physical contact is almost impossible. I can’t see him getting done for it, unless he had at some point admitted kicking out at him to stop him. 
 

He didn’t mean to injure him I’m sure, but I really do think he went to block / trip him And it went disastrously wrong. The more and more I watch it, it’s not a natural movement from contact or balance. 

 

 

I think I have a similar view of it as you but I'd be slightly surprised if he doesn't get done for it. I think he meant to hurt him (not injure and definitely not kill). Everyone I have spoken to who knows anything about the sport says there is no reason to have your foot that high, and he has previous for being a bit of a weapon (as do a shit load of other ice hockey players).

 

I think it's a landmark case because although it's very unlucky he clearly does mean to hit him hard. I think with that being a given it'd be difficult to say he's not guilty. Maybe I don't understand the law though!

Edited 14 November 2023 by bmt

[RowlattsFox]

My immediate reaction to seeing the footage was that he clearly intended to take him out, but obviously not seriously hurt or kill Johnson. 

 

But it does seem that the ice hockey community, including Johnson teammates, appear to be willing to accept it as an unintentional accident. Most of the murder stuff comes from people who have never watched ice hockey in their lives. 

 

Absolutely tragic either way.

[Kilworthfox]

I am really disappointed in myself, as my curiosity has gotten the better of me after todays news, and I have seen the video incident online. However, I am much better informed having watched the video rather than the still images. 

 

To give you some context, I can skate... very badly! I have never played Ice Hockey, however I watch the NHL every day, I'd say for an English person I am highly informed about what is 'normal' within the physics of the game from a fans perspective.

 

To save you reading all of the below, this is not an accident! There is clear intent to injure an opponent, it is exactly the same as with Football, when you see it you know the difference, it is just very sad that the consequences in this incident have been so serious.

 

This is a standard hockey play by 3 of the 4 players. There are 2 Sheffield defenders & 2 Nottingham attackers. For all intensive purposes you can pretty much ignore the Sheffield right sided defender who is just taking up his zone and watching the play develop.  Johnson skates inside, and there is a different Nottingham player coming into his zone so he is doing his job defensively.

 

The other Nottingham attacking player without the puck, is crossing over to create space for Johnson who is skating into centre ice where space is opening up towards goal.

 

Petgrave (Left sided defender) is very close to the other Nottingham forward. He is not in a good position as he is at a poor angle facing the boards not the play, he is 90 degrees out of position at speed completely the opposite to his defensive partner, I previously assumed from the still images that there must have been contact with the other Nottingham player, This is not the case! 

 

Johnson has read the situation quicker than Petgrave (Unless Petgrave always intended to initiate contact), as he has turned inside and Petgrave is skating too fast and at a poor angle, he has no intention of making contact with the first player, as if he did the opportunity for Johnson is now a 1v1 with the Goaltender.

 

Johnson is clearly his target for contact (as it is his responsibility now that the right sided defender is in position and has his player marked). You can see this clearly because there is no contact with the first Nottingham player, there is no change of speed from Petgrave. As the other Nottingham attacker passes it is clear that Petgrave is not in a good position to adjust to be in a better defensive shape as he is travelling way too fast, and this I can only assume leads to panic, as Johnson will be past him unless he commits an intentional foul (Penalty), this could usually be a trip or hook with the stick, but Petgrave chooses to make physical contact, now this would usually be a body check which is perfectly within the game. 

 

To give anyone who doesn't watch Hockey context here, as a defender, the only reason to go towards a player with the puck at speed is to body check him. Defenders can catch puck carriers with their head down unaware at centre ice, but Johnson has his field of vision and can see the play ahead of him, as his head is up, you can see this because he is skating inside head up looking at the play developing, rather than in a linear direction head down.. Usually in this situation a defender could be relatively static with their stick ready to poke or intercept the puck, or back skating to match the attacking skater.

 

What is really crazy is that Petgrave intentionally raises his leg rather than checking. You can clearly see this as initially his full weight is on his right leg, as that leg has no knee bend and the left leg which has knee bend, is now off the ice, and is being raised towards the oncoming Johnson. As the incident continues, Petgrave actually lowers his hips now bending the right Knee and raising the left leg higher, this all happens very quickly, probably in less than half a second.  

 

I believe Petgrave intentionally puts his leg out to make contact, maybe a trip or a knee on knee collision or maybe higher, I cannot say for certain as this is so unusual. This is without any doubt an intentional foul play in terms of the rules of the game. I have no doubt that Petgrave tries to initiate contact that will injure Johnson. I also have no belief that Petgrave was aiming for his neck, this part was obviously a error, however Petgraves out of control actions, and deliberate foul intentioned actions lead to this terrible outcome.

 

I believe Petgrave was trying to take Johnson out of the game in a bad way, but sadly Petgraves actions lead to Johnsons death. 

 

 

 

 

[MPH]

3 hours ago, Babylon said:

Push someone and they bang their head and die you are getting a few years in prison quite likely whether you meant to or not 

 

It’s different here as it’s a physical sport, so proving it was anything outside of normal physical contact is almost impossible. I can’t see him getting done for it, unless he had at some point admitted kicking out at him to stop him. 
 

He didn’t mean to injure him I’m sure, but I really do think he went to block / trip him And it went disastrously wrong. The more and more I watch it, it’s not a natural movement from contact or balance. 

 

 

 

 

The reality is they will probably compromise on a lesser charge. Culpable and a reckless conduct maybe?   And I doubt he’ll do time. He definitely intended to stop him in my opinion, but I’m sure he’s absolutely distraught at the outcome.  A cheeky kick maybe? But either way, he’s got to live with this for the rest of his life..

 

Of course  Johnson’s wife has to live without him for the rest of her life and I feel like the consequence of what happened is a legitimate reason to peruse a conviction.

Edited 14 November 2023 by MPH