Daniel Amartey

[Mease]

I understand all points of view but I think it simple we can not carry him in the squad if he is not good enough to play and positively impact a game, we have suffered this season because our squad is not of the quality needed to compete, this may be eased with no Europe next season.

 

We do not have to write him off nor anybody but whatever the scenario a Premiership squad can not carry more than a couple of 'developing' or 'journeyman' players.

 

We have too many passengers

in the squad, he is one.

[volpeazzurro]

5 hours ago, Col city fan said:

Put your cards on the table...

You said, I believe, that we would be wrong to sack Ranieri? I said we should sack him.

Is Amartey going to be a first-team player for the club for years to come, or is he going to drift off into obscurity?

Or is he going to be happy to be sitting on our bench week-in, week-out as a 'squad player'.

I'm saying he's not good enough. He'll have the odd good game, but that's not enough in the Premiership.

What's your call? Good enough, or not?

I throw the question out to everyone really. Football is a results business, there's little room or time to give players opportunity 'in case' they become good, especially when weve been hammered in as many games as we have this season.

Good enough, or not?

Too soon to say a simple yes or no for me yet for the reasons that:

1. He's just turned 22.

2. It's his first season. 

3. He's just come from a team light years away from having Premiership standard opponents every week. He needs to have settled in. 

Using your first season make or break quick decision making, I presume you would have got rid of Drogba in the first season Walsh bought him to Chelsea because he was pants that year compared to what they actually wanted. He turned out none too bad in the end though.

As affluent a club as we are now comparatively,  we're still not going to attract the ready made world class midfielder at the height of his career for a number of reasons. I doubt when Amarty was bought, it was with the intention of having him as an ever present this season. I would imagine that he's only played this much because Kante left and we had an injury crisis. I share the same doubts as the next bloke but I would imagine that Walsh and his team at the time might just have had a better eye for talent than you or I. I wouldn't write him off yet because of that but i also accept that sometimes players, for whatever reason, don't make the grade. I do know that he does extra conditioning work in the gym after training as he recognises that he needs to be stronger. He may go out on loan who knows, but at 22 it's worth waiting  at least another year I feel.

[The Doctor]

5 hours ago, fleckneymike said:

I've missed 4 games. Non of Amartey's performances have encouraged me to think that he is suited to midfield.

 

The fact Shakespeare doesn't view him as being better than King in CM or Fuchs (a left-back) at CB suggests that rather than being guilty of horrific hyperbole (I assume this was deliberately ironic)  I am just echoing the thoughts of the coaching staff. 

If the coaching staff hadn't seen a glimpse that he was cut out for this level, you think he'd be in the match day squads at all? Of course not. The ridiculous hyperbole is to say that you've not seen a single bit of play to suggest he's got the potential to play at this level, not to suggest he's not a starter level.

[Babylon]

20 hours ago, The Doctor said:

Not necessarily - you get 25 over-21s to play with, fairly sure Ndidi, Chilwell and Grey don't have to be registered next season; which immediately frees up some slots, as does only having two keepers over 21 who aren't done here (Hamer is surely out this summer). Looking at senior players (assuming we hold on to kasper and Mahrez goes as expected):

 

GK:

1: Kasper

2: Zieler

 

DF:

3: Simpson

4: Morgan

5: Huth

6: Benny

7: Fuchs

8: Amartey

 

(Chilwell from the U21s)

 

MF:

9: Albrighton

10: Mendy

11: Drinkwater

12: King

13: James

 

(Ndidi and Grey from U21s, possibly Kapustka)

 

FW:

14: Vardy

15: Shinji

16: Slimani

17: Ulloa

 

 

That leaves 8 places we could fill (7 if we don't want to cut our losses just yet with Musa) - room for 2 new CBs, A Mahrez replacement, a new CM, a proper alternative to Vardy, and still would leave 2 or 3 spots to adjust. Granted, there's then 3 players to fit in the following season, but you'd assume we'd be evaluating Ulloa (4th choice now realistically), and losing one of Mendy/King/James in that time. 

 

The squad obviously needs bolstering - even before Shakespeare went insane we were 3-1 down with 3 of our first choice 11 missing - 10 games with first team available - 22 points, Europa league at least. Last two, needing to dip into the squad, granted against strong opposition, but a genuine European contender wouldn't get so hopelessly outclassed in both - but there's ample room to do it.

I wasn't talking in terms of squad places, more in terms of what you can realistically accommodate and keep happy. You add in another player and several of those mentioned won't even make the match day squad. You'd end up shipping them out without giving them a chance.

[Thracian]

10 hours ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

@Thracian

 

The guy said match fitness - completely different from physical fitness.

 

 

So is the forum accepting excuses about the Spurs game or not? Some seem willing to, others don't.

 

Anyway, my point was that Amartey didn't show signs of not being able to cope - just of being in the same seemingly lethargic frame of mind as when he arrived.   

 

I know that hospital in Glenfield fits pacemakers but do they have anything that turns Ambling Man into Action Man or Unmoved Man into Urgency Man?

 

Somewhere in Amartey is a decent player - at the very least in a spoiling sense - but, my life he needs to impose himself.

 

It's alright being less than tight on Viccy Park  but let Dele Alli look you in the eyes and he'll mesmorise you like something out of Greek mythology.   

 

I'm not saying he needs to clatter people but I am saying he needs to make his presence felt like a speed camera. Any threat at all and the light flashes.  

[fleckneymike]

3 hours ago, The Doctor said:

If the coaching staff hadn't seen a glimpse that he was cut out for this level, you think he'd be in the match day squads at all? Of course not. The ridiculous hyperbole is to say that you've not seen a single bit of play to suggest he's got the potential to play at this level, not to suggest he's not a starter level.

How many times since Shakespeare has taken charge has Amartey kept a fit midfielder out of the match day squad?

[Mythyaar]

He isn't good enough. Never has been never will be. I don't buy into the theory that he needs time to bed in.

 

Ndidi is a similar age and if anything, is less experienced. He has had a lot less time to find his feet and was thrown into a tremendously difficult situation. It's quite obvious that he's got what it takes and Amartey hasn't.

[AmarteyAndChill]

12 minutes ago, Mythyaar said:

He isn't good enough. Never has been never will be. I don't buy into the theory that he needs time to bed in.

 

Ndidi is a similar age and if anything, is less experienced. He has had a lot less time to find his feet and was thrown into a tremendously difficult situation. It's quite obvious that he's got what it takes and Amartey hasn't.

Ndidi is 2 years younger...

[The Doctor]

10 hours ago, fleckneymike said:

How many times since Shakespeare has taken charge has Amartey kept a fit midfielder out of the match day squad?

Facts are he's been in the match day squad for all 15 games Shakespeare has taken charge of. You're quite clearly wrong, management clearly don't think they've never seen a single thing to suggest he can play at this level, just admit you were over-exaggerating.

[fleckneymike]

28 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Facts are he's been in the match day squad for all 15 games Shakespeare has taken charge of. You're quite clearly wrong, management clearly don't think they've never seen a single thing to suggest he can play at this level, just admit you were over-exaggerating.

I do not think he is good enough to play for a premiership side that wish to finish mid table or top half. I have seen nothing to indicate that he could compete in a side who aspire to finish in those positions. 

 

Amartey has made the match day squad by virtue of the fact he has a pulse. In the two games he's played (aka started under Shakespeare) he made the starting XI v Everton as we rested players ahead of Madrid, and he played against Spurs as no one else was fit. We conceded 10 goals in those matches. 

Edited 21 May 2017 by fleckneymike

[The Doctor]

18 minutes ago, fleckneymike said:

I do not think he is good enough to play for a premiership side that wish to finish mid table or top half. I have seen nothing to indicate that he could compete in a side who aspire to finish in those positions. 

 

Amartey has made the match day squad by virtue of the fact he has a pulse. In the two games he's played (aka started under Shakespeare) he made the starting XI v Everton as we rested players ahead of Madrid, and he played against Spurs as no one else was fit. We conceded 10 goals in those matches. 

Then as has been said, did you miss Swansea, Porto and man city at home? All games which he bossed. He's been inconsistent to say the least, regularly looks too shy to impose himself (the three games above he was an absolute machine - the talent is there, the selfbelief has been absent), I could sympathise with people saying they've not seen enough (I'd still persevere with him since he's young and versatile, and most poor performances have come when the rest of the side has been playing shit - I think get him playing with confidence in a team doing likewise and performances like the above could be the norm, besides he's still a kid - he's got 5 years or so before players normally hit their prime), but to claim you've seen nothing about him is laughable.

[HighPeakFox]

46 minutes ago, fleckneymike said:

Amartey has made the match day squad by virtue of the fact he has a pulse.

This sounds similar to the argument that King gets picked 'because he's there'.

 

Not only is it an insult to the players, it is an insult to the managers and coaches that work with them.

[mozartfox]

So Armatey is solely responsible for everything that has gone wrong this season?  May be people need to get off his back and give him encouragement? 

[FrankieADZ]

2 minutes ago, mozartfox said:

So Armatey is solely responsible for everything that has gone wrong this season?  May be people need to get off his back and give him encouragement? 

amazing isnt it, was being praised to the hilt earlier this season with some performances and now hes rubbish

[Babylon]

Nice ball playing again today, it really is a mentality issue with him I think.

[TheUltimateWinner]

I know it was only like 30 minutes, but he looked much more composed in the centre of defence.

[dayday]

6 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Nice ball playing again today, it really is a mentality issue with him I think.

I agree, and I also think CB could ultimately be his position.

 

Looked composed there, where as he looks all at sea in midfield.

[Col city fan]

12 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Nice ball playing again today, it really is a mentality issue with him I think.

No it isn't. It's a positional thing. He clearly looks much more comfortable facing the ball and the play and looks every bit a centre back, not a central midfielder. That's the first time I'd seen him at CB personally.

Id still loan him out (as said above) and give him a season at CB for a top championship club. Then reassess.

[MPH]

I think the problem is he was seen as having the potential to make the switch  from CB to DM and I don't think that was a wrong assumption to make... the problem is that you took a young man, gave him a ( comparatively) big money move, also got him to move country completely AND switched his position all at the same time. I think it was too much for him... I don't think it's a lost cause but it took a long time for him to make the adjustment and I think it will still come good eventually, but maybe at CB instead.

[Mease]

1 minute ago, Col city fan said:

No it isn't. It's a positional thing. He clearly looks much more comfortable facing the ball and the play and looks every bit a centre back, not a central midfielder. That's the first time I'd seen him at CB personally.

Id still loan him out (as said above) and give him a season at CB for a top championship club. Then reassess.

I agree seems to be very tentative on the ball no confidence to take the ball whilst assessing his next pass but certainly seems to has something more at CB and needs regular football to aid his development. Championship loan spell makes sense. A bench warmer with occasional minutes will not help him.

[Babylon]

19 minutes ago, Mease said:

I agree seems to be very tentative on the ball no confidence to take the ball whilst assessing his next pass but certainly seems to has something more at CB and needs regular football to aid his development. Championship loan spell makes sense. A bench warmer with occasional minutes will not help him.

You don't think being tentative and bit being confident isn't a menatlity issue?

[Mease]

15 minutes ago, Babylon said:

You don't think being tentative and bit being confident isn't a menatlity issue?

 

I am not sure it is a mentality issue, I think he applies himself but just is not up to speed, in more than one way, he needs games, we have certainly not seen the best of him. The question for me is how do we see the best of him so a judgement can be made?

[AmarteyAndChill]

I thought he looked more comfortable at CB

[foxinsocks]

53 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

No it isn't. It's a positional thing. He clearly looks much more comfortable facing the ball and the play and looks every bit a centre back, not a central midfielder. That's the first time I'd seen him at CB personally.

Id still loan him out (as said above) and give him a season at CB for a top championship club. Then reassess.

I  can see what your are saying yet I think we need help right now - so they are ready for august.  I  think we have to keep him .... and play him.  (he responded well to his run of games before afcon.)  I don't suggest we shouldn't try and bring in others... (if we have ambition to be top 5 then we should only hire players who can bring us that quality)... but Amarty offers us a reasonable bet that he will continue to improve - he hasn't shown us his best yet... 

Edited 21 May 2017 by foxinsocks

[fleckneymike]

12 hours ago, The Doctor said:

Then as has been said, did you miss Swansea, Porto and man city at home? All games which he bossed. He's been inconsistent to say the least, regularly looks too shy to impose himself (the three games above he was an absolute machine - the talent is there, the selfbelief has been absent), I could sympathise with people saying they've not seen enough (I'd still persevere with him since he's young and versatile, and most poor performances have come when the rest of the side has been playing shit - I think get him playing with confidence in a team doing likewise and performances like the above could be the norm, besides he's still a kid - he's got 5 years or so before players normally hit their prime), but to claim you've seen nothing about him is laughable.

At the risk of repeating myself I am yet to see anything from him that makes me think he is suited to a side aiming for the mid to top half of the Premiership. I watched all the games you claim he 'bossed' and don't share your opinion. In an effort to be balanced I looked back on 'who scored' and sqwaka to try and gain some objectivity and see how he rated from a statistical standpoint

 

Swansea (H) - 6.9/10 (Albrighton 7.2, Drinkwater 7.6, Mahrez 6.5) I'd interpret that as not 'bossing' a game (only 2 outfield players, Mahrez and Huth, rated lower).

Porto (H) - 7.4/10 (Albrighton 6.7, Drinkwater 7.1, Mahrez 7.9) You could 'possibly' claim that he bossed that game (if you ignore the 4 other outfield players who scored the same or higher)

Man City (H) - 6.6/10 (Albrighton 7.4, King 8.0, Mahrez 7.8) I'd interpret that as not 'bossing' a game (only 2 outfield players, Morgan and Simpson, rated lower).

 

I don't think any reasonable person would describe him as a machine or as having 'bossed' those games.

 

Looking at Sqwaka he again doesn't appear to have bossed Swansea (he scored less than two stars and gained a minus rating), though Porto he scored well (3.5 stars and grew into the game) though against Man City he was not rated well (1.5 stars and another minus rating). Overall I don't think it unreasonable to claim that he didn't really catch my eye in those matches.

 

 

I do not think that he is currently any better (or in fact close to) Huth or Morgan as a CB and I do not believe that he ever will be. Similarly I do not think he is currently any better than N'didi or Drinkwater and again I don't think he ever will be.

 

Would I ever start Amartey if our first XI were fit? No.

Do I forsee a time when Amartey will match the ability of the players I have listed above? No.

Do I want to wait 5 years to see if he will get to that level? No.

Do I blame him for this seasons ills? No

Am I being laughable to claim I've seen nothing? The statistics appear to say no.