Pearson philosophy vs Ranieri philosophy

[EnglishOxide]

Before anyone starts I'm not trying to compare managers. They've both achieved great things for our club.

 

I merely fancy a discussion on their footballing philosophy and which in the long term is more profitable.

 

From what I understand Pearson wanted to achieve effective, scientific and stats based football, with the intention of building each player physically, and drilling the team to win their 50/50 battles and to work hard to win the second and third balls (not necessarily high up the pitch) and letting the results take care of themselves by allowing our creative players freedom on the ball once they got the basics right - along with recruiting very specific characters for the dressing room.

 

Ranieri on the other hand has gradually implemented his style on this team, this worked for us as we closed last season out. It involves inverted wingers, full backs who do not support the midfield and a sole focus on trying to achieve defensive solidarity rather than attacking prowess, relying on a very basic long ball counter attack whilst sitting deep. The recruitment under his leadership has been confusing, although no worse than Pearson's given that it's a short period and we may yet see improvement. However, there appears to be no clear long term idea of the personnel he wants to recruit to implement whatever his philosophy is and make it work.

 

Any thoughts? I'm genuinely intrigued as to what style of football Claudio expects us to be successful with in the long term (next season and beyond). Can he make posession surrendering and counter attacking work again without European fixtures next season, or are their deeper problems with going down this road?

 

Would Pearson's style, whilst not necessarily bringing last seasons heroics, make a much more successful philosophy in terms of maintaining a competitive nature in matches and overall throughout a season?

[Countryfox]

 

I think between them (plus other factors) we arrived at the perfect storm and achieved the impossible.  Rather than look at the pros and cons of each manager perhaps we should we thinking about new blood and new Ideas ......

[EnglishOxide]

So you think a different manager could be getting more out of our current batch of players?

 

I'm quietly hoping that Ranieri uses his knowledge and experience rather than being set in his ways, and will adjust his approach to games as this season closes out to get the best out of our players.

 

Is the recent tinkering with formation a sign that he is trying to adjust our philosophy or is it simply him making temporary reactive adjustments to match up to the opposition?

[desertfox2]

3 hours ago, EnglishOxide said:

So you think a different manager could be getting more out of our current batch of players?

 

I'm quietly hoping that Ranieri uses his knowledge and experience rather than being set in his ways, and will adjust his approach to games as this season closes out to get the best out of our players.

 

Is the recent tinkering with formation a sign that he is trying to adjust our philosophy or is it simply him making temporary reactive adjustments to match up to the opposition?

 

Probably a bit of both. I think he sees we need a plan b and is trying systems out for that reason. Spurs did well against Chelsea playing 3-4-3 which is why we set up how we did probably. Difference, is they are pretty much set up with their players to play that formation. I'm not sure we are.

[smudger63]

Pearsons approach to life in the premier league, by his own admission,was that we had to set up to stay in games, which is why we never took any real tonkings from anyone in his one season in the premier league.

This negative philosophy also seen us bottom of the league for three quaters of the season.

It was only when it was shit or bust time, and we had to win games, to have any chance of staying up, that he let the team off the leash, and really have a go at teams, which ultimately saved us. 

This approach wasn't changed through a tactical masterstroke from Pearson, it was changed through desperation!

 

[Babylon]

5 hours ago, smudger63 said:

Pearsons approach to life in the premier league, by his own admission,was that we had to set up to stay in games, which is why we never took any real tonkings from anyone in his one season in the premier league.

This negative philosophy also seen us bottom of the league for three quaters of the season.

It was only when it was shit or bust time, and we had to win games, to have any chance of staying up, that he let the team off the leash, and really have a go at teams, which ultimately saved us. 

This approach wasn't changed through a tactical masterstroke from Pearson, it was changed through desperation!

 

Perhaps exactly why we're struggling again then as I see nothing different in what we're trying now.

 

Difference is back then, we actually put in good performances and were let down by lots of individual errors and a few poor players. You could look at games and see we weren't far off being ok... now we look awful. How many times have we looked like a good team this season, 3 or 4? That Pearson team looked a far better long term prospect than we currently do.

 

We've not even had any hard luck stories where you walk away saying we should have got or deserved more. We're getting everything we deserve, we've been absolutely woeful.

 

We're only 4 points better off than we were in our first season after 21 games. We've conceded 1 more and scored 4 less. Despite the first team containing the likes of De Laet, Nugent, Konch, Moore, Hammond, GTF, Wood etc and the new one containing god knows how many millions of extra players.

 

It's frightening.

[volpeazzurro]

Just fed up with hearing bloody Pearsons name yet again which usually comes after we've lost a match. It's boring. We could talk about the tactics of O'Neil or Bloomfield for a change if a discussion regarding historical playing styles/philosophies were required but we don't,  why?  Because despite the assurances that it's not, it's just an implicit dig against Ranieri. If he doesn't change things he's stuck in his ways. If he changes tactics or personnel then he's either tinkering too much or doing it wrong. Yet...you get two dozen suggestions on here, all different,  of what is really right or the solution to all our problems, clearly not everyone can be right.

I,  not having had 20 plus years as a football manager or, not currently knowing the current fitness levels, personal issues or perceived adaptiveness to Premiership football from some of our new signings due to age or ability, would put my faith in a wise head of a manager like Ranieri. Not knowing the facts of the above, I could at least see why he tried what he did against a buoyant, experienced Chelsea side with a plethora of international stars in midfield pitted against our kids that have just arrived and who are adapting as quick as they can.  If we had the option of Drinkwater,  Kante and Cambiasso to pick from perhaps it might have been different  but you have to go with what you've got. No one knows who we tried to sign in the transfer market and who we're currently trying to sign at the moment. Neither do we know who isn't giving of their best because they don't want to be here, though Schlupps performance against Porto may have been an indication about his feelings.

We have to trust Ranieri  (I happily do so) because there are no better alternatives available out there that would be interested in the likes of us in our current position any way. We have a great basis for an excellent side once we get all our players back and our young signings find their feet and adapt if they can. The future's bright, people like Chelsea et al have been building with bigger budgets for years, just look at Man Utd, bet some of their fans have despaired greatly  over the last couple of years whilst we won the title by 10 clear points! 

 

[Rob1742]

Football management is very difficult, and even if you are good at it, you can fail at times if you don't have the right squad and are unable to change it.

 

Pearson was brilliant for us, created a team ethic, where you had to fit in and work as a group, and if you didn't, you were history. The group needed to be strong, and he doesn't have time for individualism. Hence Gradel didn't last long and Knockaert took a while to manipulate and bring around to his way of thinking.

Also, yes he was big on the sports science, and would have a very good idea who would be substituted based on the training the players had during the week. As an example, the sports science people would inform him of who was likely to tire and need replacing.

 

Tactically I don't think he was great, but creating a strong group is extremely difficult, and he did that very successfully.

 

Ranieri tactically is a much better manager, he is also liked by the players and so these attributes created that perfect situation for us to win the league with the help of the group that Pearson created.

 

The issue with Ranieri I think is the group may now not be as strong. Many new faces with the group mentality not being as important.

 

Tactically excellent, but not sure he is the man for a relegation battle and not sure what the future holds for us.

 

Don't know why people tell us to forget Pearson. He was instrumental in us winning the league. He created the group. It was a massive story and it happened recently and so its worth talking about.

 

 

[m4DD0gg]

Both have their pro's and con's.

 

Glad we have CR though.

 

I wonder if the owners have a plan B just in case CR does not work out come the end of the season.

[Barky]

Pearson might have successfully demanded a bit more out of players who's effort levels have fallen this season, but equally he could have fallen out with several players.

 

Tactically it's incomparable. Ranieri knows what he is doing at this level, Pearson didn't. 

 

Neither effort nor tactics alone are enough for a really good season though. 

 

Recruitment is on the scouts. Steve Walsh had a poor summer for us. Hopefully the new guy will step up, he has made an excellent start with Ndidi. 

[Blue ROI]

I still have great time for Pearson for lifting the club from the nadir of 2008 and the progression that culminated in 2016 even when he was gone. Some of us can remember the bad days as clear as the good ones. I'm not defending all of his antics from his time with us but overall it was a job well done.

 

Given the bad run of form now I wouldn't be as forgiving with Claudio as I would be with Nigel in February 2015. It was a bit risky but given what Pearson did for us I would have given him until the end of that season. Leicester at least should have granted him that and luckily it worked out.

 

Claudio in spite of last year hasnt the years with Leicester that have warranted an extension if it came down to say 'the dreaded vote of confidence' from the owners.

 

I do hope that he can turn it around because it would slightly be a sour note to leave after the remarkable 2015/16 season.

 

One thing I would say for Ranieri in his defence is that the life cycle of the team may be coming to an end if it hasn't already.The Forest Win in may 2013 was the moment where it began for us with 6 or 7 of the 2016 squad who were part of that day. Every team has a window of say 4-5 years and then for one reason or another things start to go downhill. This is something a minted club like Ferguson's Man Utd or Saachi/Cappellos's Milan can overcome but a club not used to success can fade a lot sooner (Cloughs Forest or maybe even Simeone's Atletico Madrid)

 

The summer could have us waving goodbye to stalwarts like Drinkwater or Mahrez. Whether or not Ranieri's still around or if we're still in the Premier League or not, we may be past the golden age unfortunately.

 

 

[gw_leics772]

11 minutes ago, Blue ROI said:

I still have great time for Pearson for lifting the club from the nadir of 2008 and the progression that culminated in 2016 even when he was gone. Some of us can remember the bad days as clear as the good ones. I'm not defending all of his antics from his time with us but overall it was a job well done.

 

Given the bad run of form now I wouldn't be as forgiving with Claudio as I would be with Nigel in February 2015. It was a bit risky but given what Pearson did for us I would have given him until the end of that season. Leicester at least should have granted him that and luckily it worked out.

 

Claudio in spite of last year hasnt the years with Leicester that have warranted an extension if it came down to say 'the dreaded vote of confidence' from the owners.

 

I do hope that he can turn it around because it would slightly be a sour note to leave after the remarkable 2015/16 season.

 

One thing I would say for Ranieri in his defence is that the life cycle of the team may be coming to an end if it hasn't already.The Forest Win in may 2013 was the moment where it began for us with 6 or 7 of the 2016 squad who were part of that day. Every team has a window of say 4-5 years and then for one reason or another things start to go downhill. This is something a minted club like Ferguson's Man Utd or Saachi/Cappellos's Milan can overcome but a club not used to success can fade a lot sooner (Cloughs Forest or maybe even Simeone's Atletico Madrid)

 

The summer could have us waving goodbye to stalwarts like Drinkwater or Mahrez. Whether or not Ranieri's still around or if we're still in the Premier League or not, we may have be past the golden age unfortunately.

 

 

Overall, I agree with most of what you say, but there is one point I just can't ignore.

 

Do you not think winning the league is enough to warrant at least as much time as the man who got us promoted?

 

 

[5waller5]

2 hours ago, Babylon said:

Perhaps exactly why we're struggling again then as I see nothing different in what we're trying now.

 

Difference is back then, we actually put in good performances and were let down by lots of individual errors and a few poor players. You could look at games and see we weren't far off being ok... now we look awful. How many times have we looked like a good team this season, 3 or 4? That Pearson team looked a far better long term prospect than we currently do.

 

We've not even had any hard luck stories where you walk away saying we should have got or deserved more. We're getting everything we deserve, we've been absolutely woeful.

 

We're only 4 points better off than we were in our first season after 21 games. We've conceded 1 more and scored 4 less. Despite the first team containing the likes of De Laet, Nugent, Konch, Moore, Hammond, GTF, Wood etc and the new one containing god knows how many millions of extra players.

 

It's frightening.

 

I wondered what Ranieri would have to do to make him a better manager than Pearson for you ..... Winning the Premier League i thought might just have done it!!

[Blue ROI]

7 minutes ago, gw_leics772 said:

Overall, I agree with most of what you say, but there is one point I just can't ignore.

 

Do you not think winning the league is enough to warrant at least as much time as the man who got us promoted?

 

 

When you put it like that I would have agreed and would seem like an easy decision....

 

....Logic goes out the window with Leicester City and this story I believe!

 

After years of uncertainty and Taylor,Levein, Worthington, Megson, Holloway etc leading to that day in stoke 2008 only for Pearson (and the babkroom staff too may I add) to start bringing the club back to respectabilty. My mood was as bad after Shefffield Wednesday in April 2008 as it was good for Everton in May 2016.

 

If Nigel had left for good in 2010 I wouldn't look back at him fondly as I do now. But Yeah I would still have given him the chance to put it right in 2015 all things considered.

 

We do have some good performances this year that people forget but Ranieri hasn't been here long enough to earn a chance to save it that Pearson did.If this was 2020 and we hit a slump after 4-5 good seasons I would give Ranieri the benefit of the doubt and a chance to turn it around. Right now for a shorter time in charge than Pearson I wouldn't believe we're as secure under Ranieri.

 

 

[Bayfox]

I hadn't really given this much thought until the OP asked the question, but here's a few things I would now ask questions off. Would be interested in people's reactions, do they have any baring on our current problems.

 

We have sat and questioned the players, attitude, hunger etc after last season, But what about the manager, he also achieved something he had never managed before, even with bigger clubs than Leicester, would he have been better walking away, did he only hang around for the CL? He isn't a young man anymore and last season however great, there must have been a huge pressure, maybe put on himself, but did that take a lot out of him emotionally.

 

Also, he seems to have little by little, marginalised the input of others, and started listening to those he brought in, has he been a bit short term? After all he only has a limited time left in the game, does he have any long term interest in the whole of the club.

 

Like it or not, Nigel put a lot of things in place of the pitch, many aspects of the club away from the 1st team needed modernising and people putting in place that had not just today and tomorrow at heart but meant that things were in place that should benefit the club in the longer term.

 

I'm not saying the above are the reasons, I'm just starting to wonder, something has changed, now is that the players, or does it stem from a change higher up, Claudio in this case.

 

As for the performances, I don't want to get into an argument about who's way was better, but last season we rode the crest of a wave, and it never really broke.

But this season the hammerings away from home have been shocking to watch, yet as we have noted, under NP we never got a tonking, we never looked like getting one, yes we lost games, but never by big margins and with a bit more luck or skill at the time, we could have taken a few more results, and the players never really let their heads drop or looked at each other as if to say what are we doing or meant to be doing, at the minute they look lost at times, does that come from a lack of leadership of the field as well?

 

What i'd give right now to have maybe picked up a few more draws on the road compared to the results we've had.

[Babylon]

18 minutes ago, 5waller5 said:

 

I wondered what Ranieri would have to do to make him a better manager than Pearson for you ..... Winning the Premier League i thought might just have done it!!

Where have I said one is better than the other? I've just laid out what are facts and what we're all seeing now.... can you really say otherwise?

 

I've said a number of times, without Pearson Ranieri would never have won the league, but conversely I don't think we'd have got close just with Pearson. The two following each other were a perfect combination.

 

But the reality is that we're currently looking a worse team. Our football is woeful, we've spent god knows how much and aren't much better than we were with Gary Taylor Flethcher kicking a ball about.

[gw_leics772]

1 minute ago, Blue ROI said:

When you put it like that I would have agreed and would seem like an easy decision....

 

....Logic goes out the window with Leicester City and this story I believe!

 

After years of uncertainty and Taylor,Levein, Worthington, Megson, Holloway etc leading to that day in stoke 2008 only for Pearson (and the babkroom staff too may I add) to start bringing the club back to respectabilty. My mood was as bad after Shefffield Wednesday in April 2008 as it was good for Everton in May 2016.

 

If Nigel had left for good in 2010 I wouldn't look back at him fondly as I do now. But Yeah I would still have given him the chance to put it right in 2015 all things considered.

 

We do have some good performances this year that people forget but Ranieri hasn't been here long enough to earn a chance to save it that Pearson did.If this was 2020 and we hit a slump after 4-5 good seasons I would give Ranieri the benefit of the doubt and a chance to turn it around. Right now for a shorter time in charge than Pearson I wouldn't believe we're as secure under Ranieri.

 

 

So nice to have somebody change their comment after reading somebody else's input. Doesnt happen often on here. You must learn to defend whatever you have said and never back down ;o)

 

As I say, I don't disagree with the rest of your post, and genuinely believe if we had not got 4 points from Middlesbrough and West Ham the questions would have (rightfully?) been asked.

 

To put a different spin on it, if Ranieri hadn't have won the league last year, (and I dont mean a close second, more like a normal season of flirting with relegation that we would have expected) then I dont think he would have got the time.

 

I didn't want to give Nigel any more time just before the great escape so I've learned to accept that I am a fickle football fan, led by my heart, and "try" to leave it to the professionals.

 

If I'd have given my views from before the great escape it would still be coming back to bite me to this day, which I am sure Col can back up with the Cattermole comments ;o)

 

[Countryfox]

4 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Where have I said one is better than the other? I've just laid out what are facts and what we're all seeing now.... can you really say otherwise?

 

I've said a number of times, without Pearson Ranieri would never have won the league, but conversely I don't think we'd have got close just with Pearson. The two following each other were a perfect combination.

 

But the reality is that we're currently looking a worse team. Our football is woeful, we've spent god knows how much and aren't much better than we were with Gary Taylor Flethcher kicking a ball about.

 

I think we are going through a transition and as worrying as some of these performances are we have to give CR to the end of the season to sort it out.  The components are there (with some important additions in defence!) and  motivation/balance is key ....    I can't say I'm not worried ...   If we don't at least start to get some good performances under our belt by the end of the season some may look to leave ...   DD for one is someone who must be getting some doubts at the back of his mind.   Forget contracts ...    As we know they seem to count for nothing and the Don always maintains if they don't want to be here they can go ....     And he only asked for ONE more season ! 

 

For me the underlying steadying rock are the owners ...   I have every confidence in them and will be eternally grateful to what they have done so far.

[EnglishOxide]

40 minutes ago, 5waller5 said:

 

I wondered what Ranieri would have to do to make him a better manager than Pearson for you ..... Winning the Premier League i thought might just have done it!!

By your logic, if Ranieri finishes 15th or lower this season he's had a worse season than Pearson and is a worse manager.

 

Obviously not the case.

 

We are talking about both managers approach to football and where its leading us in the long term.

[Babylon]

15 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 

I think we are going through a transition and as worrying as some of these performances are we have to give CR to the end of the season to sort it out.  The components are there (with some important additions in defence!) and  motivation/balance is key ....    I can't say I'm not worried ...   If we don't at least start to get some good performances under our belt by the end of the season some may look to leave ...   DD for one is someone who must be getting some doubts at the back of his mind.   Forget contracts ...    As we know they seem to count for nothing and the Don always maintains if they don't want to be here they can go ....     And he only asked for ONE more season ! 

 

For me the underlying steadying rock are the owners ...   I have every confidence in them and will be eternally grateful to what they have done so far.

I've lost a lot of confidence in Ranieri, mainly because I thought these struggles were telegraphed last season. It seemed obvious to me we had to look at sowing the seeds of a change in how we play football. We became reliant on counter attacking, when I always thought that was just one weapon in the armory, not the only way we could play. He tailored us into that team and who can say it was wrong, we won the bloody league. But it looked like we'd need to tweak it again as people were setting up differently and we were finding it harder to create in attack the final third of last year (a couple of dead rubber games aside).

 

To not see that coming and to seemingly just bring in like for like players for me was one of the biggest errors. I can see he's looking at changing things now and fair enough, but the process is happening 8 months later than it probably should have. There have been some odd decisions this year.

 

I'll give him time, I'm not sure he's the person to take us on long term, but I will always give managers time. It's a very trying set of circumstances this season, almost unknown. So you take that all into account, I just want to see an attempt to play football. I'm getting tired and bored of what's currently being shown.

[filbertway]

Haha I keep going to add to this but @Babylon is basically just saying exactly what I want to say, but much more diplomatically.

[volpeazzurro]

Some great points made, too numerous to mention. When we speak of our work in the transfer market though I think we all have to agree that due to the amount of TV money swashing around in the market,  Premiership teams are having to pay obscene, almost double the amount of money a player's actually worth to get their man which creates a false market. Nearly  £90 million for Pogba for example is a joke, he clearly is nowhere near worth that,  but the market dictates it. We are not competing in the same market, we simply can't afford to pay for a really proven player.  Any of our signings therefore contain an element of risk on either age or obscure club/playing background.

 

Slimani for example is the nearest we could probably get as a player with proven history, but is he worth 30 million? Nowhere near, but just like Pogba, the market dictates. Are  Musa , Mendy and Ndidi worth the amount we paid? Same rules apply.

 

What I would say is this though. Add to those last 3 young players to Chilwell, Gray, Kaputska and possibly Uche, then you can potentially see some method in the madness when mixing them in with some older players.  We can't suddenly buy a new team like Man Utd but we have bought terrific potential. It didn't take a rocket scientist to see that there would have to be changes in our Premiership winning side to move forward for years to come and not just for a second year. I for one can see through the disappointing blips of this season and see a bright future. 

 

Whether Ranieri, Pearson or Sir Alex himself, due to the current composition of our squad, whatever tactics are employed,  we are where we are and I think Ranieri, for as long as his wise head is here, is at one with our owners in building a secure longer term future as opposed to second season short termism.  This bodes for some frustration in the short term perhaps. We may be flirting with relegation at this precise moment but there are a lot worse teams in there. Not many teams could have lived with the movement of Chelsea 's front 3 this weekend. 

 

Reasons to be cheerful,  a European night to come whatever the result and an away cup game at Pride Park against the sheep, life can't get much better than that!  Glass half full folks, we can extend the dream albeit in short steps! 

[AmarteyAndChill]

Raneiri has used the style of play to best suit his players. Nothing to do with his philosophy.

[whoareyaaa]

3 hours ago, Babylon said:

Perhaps exactly why we're struggling again then as I see nothing different in what we're trying now.

 

Difference is back then, we actually put in good performances and were let down by lots of individual errors and a few poor players. You could look at games and see we weren't far off being ok... now we look awful. How many times have we looked like a good team this season, 3 or 4? That Pearson team looked a far better long term prospect than we currently do.

 

We've not even had any hard luck stories where you walk away saying we should have got or deserved more. We're getting everything we deserve, we've been absolutely woeful.

 

We're only 4 points better off than we were in our first season after 21 games. We've conceded 1 more and scored 4 less. Despite the first team containing the likes of De Laet, Nugent, Konch, Moore, Hammond, GTF, Wood etc and the new one containing god knows how many millions of extra players.

 

It's frightening.

 

Have to agree with that, almost every game we looked just as good as the opposition but 1 or 2 errors cost us (Morgan in particular), probably just down to lack of experience. I don't think we lost any games by more than 1 goal, you could see something was brewing... then the following season we did the remarkable off the back off the previous campaign, with players playing at the peak of their game and the team playing together as one unit.

 

this season has just been a complete shambles from both the management and the players, the players must take some of the stick for not turning up throughout the season probably having lost some of that hunger they had previously, which isn't really surprising having just destroyed the best the league in the world by 10 points, not having much of a break in the summer and then being asked to commit the same level of performance week in week out.

 

then you have to look at the management and there  are plenty of negatives after playing the same way all season 4-4-2 looking for the miracle ball to Vardy but simply isn't working but he should have realized this a lot sooner now we have under half the season left trying to find a formation that fits. Are the players still fighting for the manager? can he get them up and keep them in line like Pearson managed to do? questions need to be asked.

 

not only that but we haven't exactly had it easy from the refs this season but we can't blame them.

 

You feel you have to give Claudio till the end of the season but he needs to get the players motivated again!

[Bazly]

Ranieri is head and shoulders a much better manager than Pearson. Pearson would never win the EPL even if you gave him Man City with £1bn to spend. He is a good coach, good motivator but that's only part of being a good manager. The manager has to perform both on and off the field of play and Ranieri is a class act at both.

 

Now I have my I love Ranieri over I'll hammer him for being unable to motivate the players. Last Summers champagne circuit tour put them in slumber land. the players have clearly concluded last season is as good as its ever going to get and the result is a complete lack of motivation. There is no pressing, no directed effort, no hunger, no desire and precious little skill on display. The manager and his team are the one that have to instil the belief and motivation into the team and Ranieri has singularly failed in that regard. that's why he should go at the end of the season, stay up or relegated. We need a no nonsense Pearson type character back to give the players serious love and a serious kick up their collective overpaid arses. the players have lost their work ethic and that's no good.

 

The team is one of 5 fighting over 3 relegation spaces. Usually one of the bottom three escapes which will likely mean a battle between ourselves and Palace for that coveted 17th position.