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David Guiza

12 Angry Foxestalkers

By David Guiza, in General Chat

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted

It's an interesting one.

 

IMO the criminal justice system should prioritise acquitting the innocent over convicting the guilty, and I'm sure you could find conflicting studies as to whether or not a jury trial does that. To be honest (as Matt pointed out earlier) the idea of standing up in a courtroom as an innocent person who has been charged, with my future in the hands of my lawyer and twelve members of the public entirely open to their own views and prejudices is pretty damn terrifying.

 

And this isn't even taking into account the plea bargain system here in the US where prosecutors will happily nail innocent parties (along with guilty ones) with lighter sentences by first threatening them with a much bigger punishment should it go to court - as I said in the DP thread, if, as an innocent party, you have a choice of six months inside if you cop a plea and ten years if it goes to trial and your lawyer isn't up to it/the jury gets it wrong, what would you do? Very glad the UK doesn't have a similar system.

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The Quick Brown Fox

The Quick Brown Fox

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Channel 4 did a fake murder trial a few months back with cameras in the jury room. Fascinating insight into how jurors' minds work.

 

In the end the jury was deadlocked. It showed you what had actually happened afterwards and it turned out me and my missus, playing along at home, would have delivered the wrong verdict - but as mentioned the burden of proof is "beyond reasonable doubt" so I do sympathise when the wrong calls get made.

 

I've been in courtrooms before when defendants have definitely got away with quite serious crimes, and it's pretty sickening to see them celebrating outside afterwards though.

I watched that, I thought though that whatever way the jurors decided the result would be the opposite anyway. It could have been either way, I think it was done that way to show just how hard it is to decide the fate of someone and how easy it would be to get it wrong. 

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StanSP

StanSP

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Channel 4 did a fake murder trial a few months back with cameras in the jury room. Fascinating insight into how jurors' minds work.

 

In the end the jury was deadlocked. It showed you what had actually happened afterwards and it turned out me and my missus, playing along at home, would have delivered the wrong verdict - but as mentioned the burden of proof is "beyond reasonable doubt" so I do sympathise when the wrong calls get made.

 

I've been in courtrooms before when defendants have definitely got away with quite serious crimes, and it's pretty sickening to see them celebrating outside afterwards though.

I remember watching that. Thought it was brilliant. Gut instinct from the start was that he did it but, as expected, times where my thoughts wavered on if he actually did or not.

 

also wasn't a fan of some of the jurors if I remember correctly. Was as if they went against the grain just so that they can be heard and my impression was that they were saying things they didn't really believe in. 

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Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, pSinatra said:

 

There were 2 defendants in the dock, who had beaten a man to death at a house party in Hull.  The deceased was an alcoholic man, who had been given some money to go to the shops to buy some more alcohol.  On his way back from the shops he had met some people at the park & drank all the alcohol.  When he got back to the house, he had no money & no alcohol - so was beaten to death.  The dead guy was tiny, about 5'5" & 8 or 9 stone.  One of the defendants was huge & a bouncer in Hull.  They didn't just beat him, but kick the shit out of him, & used copper piping to kill him.  The photos of the body were horrendous & I can still picture them now.  They had beaten him to a pulp.

 

The case lasted a week & we were disappointed in the end that we never got to make our decision.  We were forever in & out of court, at the judges request, as the court discussed matters we were not privy to.  The barristers of the accused managed to negotiate a plea bargain & the defendants pleaded guilty to manslaughter & not guilty to murder.  They were given a sentence of 3 years each.  As they had already served 12 months on remand, they would be out in 6 months.  We spoke to a policeman involved in the case after the trial & he told us that the case had effectively failed as the prosecution wouldn't be able to prove which of the defendants actually killed him.

 

We were disgusted at the outcome & didn't really understand how the 2 men could be out in 6 months.  We didn't didn't care who dealt the final blow, they were as guilty as each other. 

 

 

I suppose it's cases like yours that led them to introduce the whole "joint enterprise" concept whereby anyone in a group when a group member commits a crime can be guilty of that crime.

But that seems to have caused problems in the other direction: e.g. groups of friends involved in a minor scrap when one of their mates causes a fatal injury have all ended up with murder convictions, as a "joint enterprise".

 

You'd hope that some middle ground could be found between that scenario and the scenario in your case, where at least 1 murderer gets off (maybe 2, arguably).

 

I assume that it should now be easier to use forensics to determine which of a group of people was the one who went too far. Then the others could be charged with affray, ABH or whatever.

If, as in your case, two or more people have engaged in violence liable to cause death, does it really matter which of them happened to strike the fatal blow?

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StanSP

StanSP

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, steveherbe said:

I've done jury service twice and loved it. Murder case, guilty. Other one was a sexual case, defendant was a serving police officer - guilty. I can see a pattern emerging here, hope no FT'er ever gets me again, you'll be going down irrespective of evidence!

reminds me of what I saw on 24 Hours in Police Custody (another great programme) the other week. Serving police officer found guilty of blackmail. Before he got caught and unknowingly to the other police officers on the team in charge of the case, he was put on the surveillance team for his own crime lol. 

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stripeyfox

stripeyfox

Posted
Posted

I did Jury Service in a few years back. I was really nervous about it but actually it was an amazing experience. I sat on three trials during the two weeks. A sex crime, a robbery and a burglary. In the sexual assault/rape trial it was really tough because between the "victim", the alleged offender and the main defence witness, none of their stories stacked up. It was interesting to see how when you retire to consider your verdict, the discussion can be dominated by the most vocal of the group. I was foreman of the jury (not by choice, but no one else wanted to do it) and I have to say that returning to the court to deliver a guilty verdict was the most nerve wracking experience of my life! The thing was that throughout the trial, you sit in the courtroom and there's not that many people in there - just the defendent and barristers and whoever is giving evidence. But when you go back to give the verdict, it is rammed with families of both sides, press etc. I was shitting myself and could not look the defendant in the eye as I replied to the judge's question "How do you find the defendant" with "Guilty"

 

But it was a really interesting experience and i'd love to do it again. But it really is a roll of the dice as to who you get. We had a woman on our jury who was clearly not "the full ticket" and understood little of what was going on. When asked about what her opinion was she just said "oh, I don't know. Whatever you think. He looks guilty to me"

 

Am still in contact with some of my fellow jurors. There's not many occasions in life when a group of people of all ages, both sexes and any walk of life are thrown together in a situation which most of them will never have been in before. Really great experience

 

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stripeyfox

stripeyfox

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I think it’s only a few weeks notice that you get and I only thought you could defer it under exceptional circumstances (in hospital or abroad etc). I could be wrong though.

 

I’m now self employed so the possibility of one day maybe being selected myself doesn’t appeal at all. You only get covered expenses and not loss of earnings I think.

I think I got about 8 weeks notice. I was paid by my employer, so not a problem for me, but self employed I think you get maybe £150 a week or something, so probably a big hit for most people!
 

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Izzy

Izzy

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

I thought this thread was going to be "list your top 12 angriest posters".

1. @lifted*fox

2. @lifted*fox

3. @lifted*fox

4. @lifted*fox

5. @lifted*fox

6. @lifted*fox

7. @lifted*fox

8. @lifted*fox

9. @lifted*fox

10. @lifted*fox

11. @lifted*fox

12. @lifted*fox

 

:D

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Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Manwell Pablo said:


PERSONS MATT PERSONS THE FEMINISTS WILL BE KNOCKING THE DOOR DOWN

 

There was a brilliant Ray Lowry cartoon in the NME about 35 years ago. It depicted a world annihilated and left like a bomb site. Four riders on horseback with scythes were riding furiously towards two young people who were trying to flee.

The lad was turning to the girl and saying: "OK, then, it's the four horsePERSONS of the Apocalypse!" 

 

Well, it amused me at the time...

 

 

2 hours ago, MattP said:

 

Being in court as an innocent man (or woman!) and having to experience a situation where a lawyer far cleverer than you, far sharper than you and on their home turf trying to trip you up to get a guilty verdict is one of the most horrific things you can go through.

 

Sounds like you're talking from bitter personal experience there, Matt.

 

How many socialist scumbags were you falsely accused of massacring - or were you just up on another false charge of urinating on the destitute? :whistle:

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Sounds like you're talking from bitter personal experience there, Matt.

 

How many socialist scumbags were you falsely accused of massacring - or were you just up on another false charge of urinating on the destitute? :whistle:

lol

 

No it's not me, someone who was once close to me though went through it. I've managed to avoid a court appearance so far.

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Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, MattP said:

lol

 

No it's not me, someone who was once close to me though went through it. I've managed to avoid a court appearance so far.

 

You've done better than me, then (only magistrates' court for youthful drunken idiocy, no massacres or urination involved).

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

You've done better than me, then (only magistrates' court for youthful drunken idiocy, no massacres or urination involved).

Don't worry it's only due to not being caught lol

Edited by MattP
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cambridgefox

cambridgefox

Posted
Posted (edited)

loved every series of this.Your neck of the woods too. @StanSP

 

went on jury service many years ago.

First one thrown out on a technicality,was so guilty and a traveller,part of me was relieved as you had to run the gauntlet the first day with half the site there.

 

Second one was an uncle who sexual assaulted his nieces allegedly.

The last sort of case I wanted,made me feel sick,however listening to the evidence we realised this wasn't what happened at all.

it happened in a loft conversion that hadn't been built yet!.According to the builder and receipts to back this up.

 

one thing I often think about was at the end they said the bloke was on trial for another case that they couldn't mention at the time.

Did we make the wrong decision?although evidence said otherwise or was another family member trying it on for jealousy and greed?

 

Apparently he was the only one of the siblings to look after his elderly mother helping with bills etc and a year before her death she changed her will so he got everything.

The accusations started a few months after they heard the will.

 

Edited by cambridgefox
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stripeyfox

stripeyfox

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, STEVIE B said:

A girl at work did jury service for a week ( maybe 2 ? ). She wasn’t called into court once. Don’t understand how that works. Personally, I’d love to be involved. 

This does happen. We all rocked up on the first day at court, a pool of about 40 jurors. Court time is slow, and if a trial does start they'll call 12 jurors whilst the others wait. Then another trial starts and another 12 get picked an so on. But it seems like (at Leicester anyway), there's rarely more than 2 or 3 jury trials at any one time so it is possible to not get called. One guy in our pool sat there for 2 weeks and never got called. If it got to a point in the day and they knew a trial wasn't going to start, then they'd send the unpicked jurors home.

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