Tunisia vs England - Monday 18th June 19:00

[Max Wall]

Just now, Izzy Muzzett said:

Interesting perspective there mate.

 

My view is that the RoI and Holland teams were no mugs so a draw against both wasn't a disaster. From memory Bobby Robson went to 3 at the back I think for the Egypt game (bought in Mark Wright?) but yeah, that was a scrappy win.

 

That Belgium team were pretty handy too and Scifo was a quality player. It was pretty even but I think we deserved it and Platt's goal deserved to win any match.

 

Cameroon were a bit of an unknown quantity and put up a good fight. I remember Lineker saying he lost 10lbs during that game as it was hot as fvck. We should have beaten Germany and as Bobby Robson said, we'd have given Argentina a good game in the final.

 

I just thought we had all the momentum in 1990 and our name was on the cup. I've never been so upset as an England fan losing that semi - it was heartbreaking.

 

 

Totally agree Izzy, that's the point I was making about it being the only time I truly believed we may/should have won it.

 

[Tuna]

Come on lets get in the mood:

 

 

...and just because.

 

 

[SouthStandUpperTier]

3 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

Precisely. That's why it was such a huge opportunity in 1990. If you go back to my original post, I didn't say we were an amazing team, I said we were as good as any team in it. Argentina shithoused their way to the final and Germany made a meal of beating them. There really was no stand out team that year. That, I believe, was our best opportunity. That's the only point I was making. Not sure what point of mine you are disagreeing with.

Over the whole tournament West Germany were by far the standout team in Italia '90. Their performances against Yugoslavia and Holland proved that. England raised their game and were a match for them in the semi, and Argentina spoiled enough in the final to make WG look clumsy. But on the whole the best team won.

[Max Wall]

Just now, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Over the whole tournament West Germany were by far the standout team in Italia '90. Their performances against Yugoslavia and Holland proved that. England raised their game and were a match for them in the semi, and Argentina spoiled enough in the final to make WG look clumsy. But on the whole the best team won.

Ok, so in your opinion, Germany was the standout team? Then surely, having more than matched your standout team of the tournament for 120 minutes in a semi final, it was a missed opportunity then? No?

Edited 11 June 2018 by Max Wall

[SouthStandUpperTier]

Just now, Max Wall said:

Ok, so in your opinion, Germany was the standout team? Then surely, having more than matched your standout team of the tournament for 120 minutes, it was a missed opportunity then?

Yes, I'm not denying that.

[Max Wall]

Just now, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Yes, I'm not denying that.

Well that was the point I made in my post.

[SouthStandUpperTier]

1 minute ago, Max Wall said:

Well that was the point I made in my post.

I was simply disagreeing with your assertion that there wasn't a standout team.

[Max Wall]

Just now, SouthStandUpperTier said:

I was simply disagreeing with your assertion that there wasn't a standout team.

We'll agree to disagree then. I don't think West Germany stood out particularly. A draw with Colombia, sneaked past the Czechs 1-0 in the quarters courtesy of a penalty, sneaked past England in the semi with a deflected shot when England were the better team in my opinion and finally scraped past a poor Argentina in the final with an 85th minute penalty. The game you mention against Yugoslavia was their only impressive outing. You mention Holland too but I'm not sure they even played them did they?

 

Edit - Having checked, they did play Holland and won 2-1, not sure how I forget that. Even so, that makes it two impressive performances out of 7 for me. Clearly we just disagree on this one

Edited 11 June 2018 by Max Wall

[SouthStandUpperTier]

Just now, Max Wall said:

We'll agree to disagree then. I don't think West Germany stood out particularly. A draw with Colombia, sneaked past the Czechs 1-0 in the quarters, sneaked past England in the semi when England were the better team in my opinion and finally scraped past a poor Argentina in the final. The game you mention against Yugoslavia was their only impressive outing. You mention Holland too but I'm not sure they even played them did they?

Yes, beat them in the second round (the famous Rijkaard spitting in Voller's perm incident). I'm not looking to argue. I respect your opinion. I would however recommend Cris Freddi's Complete Book of The World Cup. It's a brilliant and comprehensive review of every World Cup.

[Max Wall]

Just now, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Yes, beat them in the second round (the famous Rijkaard spitting in Voller's perm incident). I'm not looking to argue. I respect your opinion. I would however recommend Cris Freddi's Complete Book of The World Cup. It's a brilliant and comprehensive review of every World Cup.

Fair enough fella, not looking for an argument either. Whilst I enjoyed Italia 90, no doubt bolstered by England's run, I remember it being one of the poorest in quality epitomised by a very poor Argentina team making the final.

I'll always think that should have been our time. I had to watch that exit in a pub in Aberdeen which only added to the general feeling of heartbreak. Never seen so many jocks so happy, it was horrible. Suffice to say, I hope S**tland never qualify for another tournament ever again. 

We had better squads in other World Cups but there were always better teams than us 86, 98, 02 and 06. I don't think there was in 90.

Anyway, let's just hope our latest lot of delicate wall flowers can give us something to cheer about this time. 

[SouthStandUpperTier]

27 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

Fair enough fella, not looking for an argument either. Whilst I enjoyed Italia 90, no doubt bolstered by England's run, I remember it being one of the poorest in quality epitomised by a very poor Argentina team making the final.

I'll always think that should have been our time. I had to watch that exit in a pub in Aberdeen which only added to the general feeling of heartbreak. Never seen so many jocks so happy, it was horrible. Suffice to say, I hope S**tland never qualify for another tournament ever again. 

We had better squads in other World Cups but there were always better teams than us 86, 98, 02 and 06. I don't think there was in 90.

Anyway, let's just hope our latest lot of delicate wall flowers can give us something to cheer about this time. 

Yes, Italia '90 is slightly over-romanticised because of England's run and Gazza's tears. I think the average goals per match for the tournament of 2.21 is still a record low. For me, Mexico '86 just felt more colourful, exciting and exotic.

Edited 12 June 2018 by SouthStandUpperTier

[Bert]

Had great intentions of an early night last night but spent a good hour or two in bed watching England videos on YouTube. Come on!!! 

[CosbehFox]

7 hours ago, Max Wall said:

 Whilst I enjoyed Italia 90, no doubt bolstered by England's run, I remember it being one of the poorest in quality epitomised by a very poor Argentina team making the final.

 

Yet oddly the most iconic World Cup. Benjamin Massing is also a hero. 

[Ric Flair]

11 hours ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

I respectfully disagree. I think England were very ordinary in Italia '90 except for the semifinal against West Germany, where they played their best game and should have won. In the group stage they struggled to draws against RoI and Holland, then just sneaked past Egypt 1-0 thanks to a set piece goal. Second round they beat Belgium in an even game only thanks to an individual piece of brilliance from Platt in the last minute of ET. Then they were completely played off the park by Cameroon in the QF, only winning due to Cameroon's lack of discipline in conceding 2 late penalties. I've been watching the World Cups since Mexico '86, and in that time you can count England's good performances on one hand (vs Poland and Paraguay in 86, West Germany in 90, Argentina in 98 and Denmark in 02).

 

England were magnificent against the Dutch, Robson finally swallowed his pride and played 3 at the back and it let the likes of Gazza off the leash. He then reverted back to 4-4-2 vs Egypt where we once again struggled. But you're right that for the majority England didn't actually play that well, but what we did do was have game management which is the overriding factor to any team getting to the latter parts of tournaments. The best teams will bow out if they haven't got it and fairly average teams will hang in there if they do have it, this is why you often see teams like Portugal 2 years ago in the Euros getting the job done when better teams around them tripped themselves up. It's often ugly to watch but international football for the majority is a fairly painful watch, it's always important to drink heavily and surround yourself with your pals to create the party.

[Max Wall]

Just now, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Yes, Italia '90 is slightly over-romanticised because of England's run and Gazza's tears. I think the average goals per match for the tournament of 2.21 is still a record low. For me, Mexico '86 just felt more colourful, exciting and exotic.

 

I'd agree with that. Mexico seemed better to me too.

I was 10 in 1978 and the whole spectacle in Argentina, the ticker tape, what seemed like exotic names to me, Kempes, Resenbrink and the like was like nothing I'd ever seen before. Loved that World cup, even without England being there.

Edited 12 June 2018 by Max Wall

[SouthStandUpperTier]

7 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

England were magnificent against the Dutch, Robson finally swallowed his pride and played 3 at the back and it let the likes of Gazza off the leash. He then reverted back to 4-4-2 vs Egypt where we once again struggled. But you're right that for the majority England didn't actually play that well, but what we did do was have game management which is the overriding factor to any team getting to the latter parts of tournaments. The best teams will bow out if they haven't got it and fairly average teams will hang in there if they do have it, this is why you often see teams like Portugal 2 years ago in the Euros getting the job done when better teams around them tripped themselves up. It's often ugly to watch but international football for the majority is a fairly painful watch, it's always important to drink heavily and surround yourself with your pals to create the party.

I hate to put the boot in on a Leicester boy and a former player (but he did request a transfer and went on to play for Forest so here goes), but I often think the England teams in 86 and 90 lacked a top class keeper in his prime. In 86 Shilton should've knocked seven shades of snot out of Maradona instead of letting him handle the ball into the net. Then in 90 watching a geriatric Shilton backpeddling in slow motion trying to get to Brehme's deflected free kick was painful viewing. And the less said about his penalty shootout tactic, of diving after the ball had been struck, the better.

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

I hate to put the boot in on a Leicester boy and a former player (but he did request a transfer and went on to play for Forest so here goes), but I often think the England teams in 86 and 90 lacked a top class keeper in his prime. In 86 Shilton should've knocked seven shades of snot out of Maradona instead of letting him handle the ball into the net. Then in 90 watching a geriatric Shilton backpeddling in slow motion trying to get to Brehme's deflected free kick was painful viewing. And the less said about his penalty shootout tactic, of diving after the ball had been struck, the better.

That’s a fair point mate. I always felt guilty blaming Shilton (for 90 definitely) because he’d been such a great servant to his country. 

 

I know keepers can play until their 40’s be he always looked like an old 40 to me and not very mobile as you say. But what was the alternative? Chris Woods I suppose but he never inspired much confidence in me either.

 

One thing this current England team is definitely lacking is a keeper in their prime but maybe Pickford/Butland might play with no fear and no previous failures I guess..

[SouthStandUpperTier]

56 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

That’s a fair point mate. I always felt guilty blaming Shilton (for 90 definitely) because he’d been such a great servant to his country. 

 

I know keepers can play until their 40’s be he always looked like an old 40 to me and not very mobile as you say. But what was the alternative? Chris Woods I suppose but he never inspired much confidence in me either.

 

One thing this current England team is definitely lacking is a keeper in their prime but maybe Pickford/Butland might play with no fear and no previous failures I guess..

Shilton was one of the great keepers in his prime. He was very good in 82 by all accounts. But he did seem to age quickly. He looked very hunched over in 90, and not particulary mobile because of it. 

 

It's been a long time since I've had confidence in England's goalkeeping situation going into a major tournament (probably not since Seaman in 98). Hopefully one of the current crop steps up.

Edited 12 June 2018 by SouthStandUpperTier

[Ric Flair]

3 hours ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

I hate to put the boot in on a Leicester boy and a former player (but he did request a transfer and went on to play for Forest so here goes), but I often think the England teams in 86 and 90 lacked a top class keeper in his prime. In 86 Shilton should've knocked seven shades of snot out of Maradona instead of letting him handle the ball into the net. Then in 90 watching a geriatric Shilton backpeddling in slow motion trying to get to Brehme's deflected free kick was painful viewing. And the less said about his penalty shootout tactic, of diving after the ball had been struck, the better.

He was very sluggish for all the penalties as well, barely got near any of them even though some of them weren't that good. It was probably a tournament too long for Shilton, even though some of his saves vs Egypt, Belgium and Cameroon were vintage.

[Leeds Fox]

6 hours ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

I hate to put the boot in on a Leicester boy and a former player (but he did request a transfer and went on to play for Forest so here goes), but I often think the England teams in 86 and 90 lacked a top class keeper in his prime. In 86 Shilton should've knocked seven shades of snot out of Maradona instead of letting him handle the ball into the net. Then in 90 watching a geriatric Shilton backpeddling in slow motion trying to get to Brehme's deflected free kick was painful viewing. And the less said about his penalty shootout tactic, of diving after the ball had been struck, the better.

 

In hindsight that’s a fair point. In the moment, had Maradona not handled it, Stilton was getting that ball. How was he to know that he was going to add a foot onto his height in a split second. Had Shilton taken his head off, the game might have had a different outcome, but a keeper can’t play the situation in that way. 

 

If he’d fouled him it would’ve looked unnecessary, given away a penalty and England could’ve been a man down and a goal down. Sure he could’ve taken everything fairly but after Hodge’s miskick the situation was over in a split second. Shilton had every right to go for the ball how he did. 

 

Anyway back on topic...

 

I hope Alli can provide a bit of creative spark in midfield and link up with Kane like he had has done for Spurs. All in all I think it’ll be a drab affair with us trying (and struggling) to outplay even the poorer sides. Ultimately ending up with us using the flanks and feeding Kanes huge ugly head. It’ll win us the easier group games but the better teams won’t struggle with it. 

Edited 12 June 2018 by Leeds Fox

[Devonfox1884]

I’d go:

 

Butland

 

Walker

Stones

Cahill

Maguire

Rose

 

Henderson

Delph

 

Sterling

Kane

Rashford

 

I just think Walker is wasted as a CB, and I can’t stand Young doing his best Albrighton impression and cutting inside EVERY TIME.

[whoareyaaa]

I think Rose is pretty shit tbf don't know how he makes the first team

[AKCJ]

28 minutes ago, whoareyaaa said:

I think Rose is pretty shit tbf don't know how he makes the first team

He's our best left wing back by a distance.

[ealingfox]

15 hours ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

I hate to put the boot in on a Leicester boy and a former player (but he did request a transfer and went on to play for Forest so here goes), but I often think the England teams in 86 and 90 lacked a top class keeper in his prime. In 86 Shilton should've knocked seven shades of snot out of Maradona instead of letting him handle the ball into the net. Then in 90 watching a geriatric Shilton backpeddling in slow motion trying to get to Brehme's deflected free kick was painful viewing. And the less said about his penalty shootout tactic, of diving after the ball had been struck, the better.

 

Why would deliberately giving away a penalty and probably being sent off have been a better option than going for the ball fairly not knowing that Maradona would cheat?

[purpleronnie]

Anyone worried about the first game.

 

We lose we're out.  This is a very good Tunisia who really play as a team, and recently have given Spain a real game, drew with Portugal, beat Costa rica.