England’s World Cup Success Is In Spite Of The Premier League, Not Because Of It

[davieG]

By Graham Ruthven
Thursday 5th July 2018
Most of the players got their chance through the lower leagues
Most of the players got their chance through the lower leagues
As you’ll have no doubt heard by now, Harry Kane had to go on loan down the leagues to get his start before he was given a chance at first team football by Spurs. Stints at Leyton Orient, Millwall, Norwich City and Leicester City prepared the striker for a top level career which would culminate him in leading England to the quarter finals of the World Cup as captain and the tournament top scorer.

Then there’s Jesse Lingard, another who had seek opportunities on loan at lower league clubs before being given a chance at Manchester United. Dele Alli came through the ranks at MK Dons before signing for Spurs in the summer of 2015, while Eric Dier was plucked from the Sporting Lisbon youth academy.

Kyle Walker started out at Sheffield United, went on loan to Northampton Town and was eventually signed by Spurs in 2009, where he was loaned back to Sheffield United before stints at QPR and Aston Villa. Harry Maguire is another who has his roots at Bramall Lane, taking in Hull City and Wigan Athletic before pitching up at Leicester City.

John Stones came through at Barnsley, Raheem Sterling rejected Arsenal to sign for QPR as a teenager, Jordan Pickford took in loan spells at Darlington, Alfreton Town, Burton Albion, Carlisle United, Bradford City and Preston North End, Kieran Trippier was chewed up and spat out by Manchester City’s youth academy before getting a chance at then Championship club Burnley, while Jamie Vardy’s route to the Premier League through non-league football is well-documented. 
 
? Jamie Vardy...

- 2010: Plays for Stocksbridge 

- 2015: Plays for England

- 2016: Ballon d'Or nominated 

- 2017: Scores 50th Premier League Goal

Gareth Southgate’s England team have taken all sorts of weird and wonderful roads to where they are now, the quarter finals of the World Cup. They’ve been forced to. This is the lay of the land for young players coming through the system in England. The Premier League might be the best league in world football, certainly the most lucrative, but it does nothing for the English game as a whole.

Should England go all the way in Russia this summer it might well be argued that this can be taken as proof that the Premier League can help cultivate a successful national team while simultaneously provided the best of footballing entertainment. This argument would be a disingenuous one, though.

England are succeeding at this World Cup in spite of the Premier League, not because of it. Young players in the country now recognise the need to go out on loan, to drop down the leagues, to get their start and Southgate’s side in Russia are a manifestation of this. England could lift the famous old trophy on July 15 and it still wouldn’t excuse the damage the Premier League has done.

https://www.thesportsman.com/articles/england-s-world-cup-success-is-in-spite-of-the-premier-league-not-because-of-it

 

[davieG]

Thoughts?

 

I'm not sure the number of loanees is proof as for example Kane presumable came through Spurs Academy but there does seem an absence of PL Academy players in the main team considering how much has been spent there. I assume that the current U21s and below have more Academy players involved.

 

Having said that I'm not convinced by the Academy system for reason which I've spouted many times on here.

[boots60]

It's heart warming to know that we prepared Kane & Lingard for a top level career.

Makes me proud to support a "lower level"club ?

[AyewJoking]

17 minutes ago, boots60 said:

It's heart warming to know that we prepared Kane & Lingard for a top level career.

Makes me proud to support a "lower level"club ?

They needed to experience the shít side of football before leaving to win the premier league with their own clubs.

[Izzy]

Reads to me a bit like the article is trying to find an angle similar to our title winning 'misfits'. 

[spacemunky]

I don't recall a single one playing for Notts!

 

3rd string Polish keeper did though. Look how that worked out!

[Guest Sharpe's Fox]

don't think it really matters. We've had debates around home grown quotas and winter breaks ect but it's not really rocket science. Lo and behold if you have a group of good players with a good team spirit and a manager with a plan you do well.

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

Would these players be as good if they weren't playing alongside talented foreigners though?

 

There's definitely a case both ways. Domestic talent will never realise its potential unless it's tested, likewise you could argue the best will find a way to the top and playing alongside overseas talent helps.

 

Again, that can be countered by arguing there are a lot of dross foreigners in the Premier League that don't really contribute anything to our national game. The loan system is definitely beneficial to kids, I don't necessarily feel it's the amount of foreigners that are blocking the pathway to gametime in the Premier League but the fact that some big clubs, Spurs (maybe Liverpool, at a push) aside have absolutely gargantuan squads that need capping. 

 

How many youngsters have Chelsea hoovered up as soon as they've shown potential and how many have actually gone on to make it?

[Dan]

I completely agree with the article really. The Premier League is structured in such a way that hinders the national team rather than enhances it.

[Webbo]

59 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

don't think it really matters. We've had debates around home grown quotas and winter breaks ect but it's not really rocket science. Lo and behold if you have a group of good players with a good team spirit and a manager with a plan you do well.

The players aren't that great though, probably one of the most average squads we've had for years.

[coolhandfox]

The problem with the PL is the bang average imports, quality players help improve the standard. But for every Hazard, this are 20 or 30 bang average players! 

 

Looks at our squad, Benny for example, is he any better than the home grown Liam Moore who we moved on? 

 

Harvey Barnes would have given as much output as Musa over the last 18 months?

 

How is someone like Phil Foden going to get a game at Man City, with Sterling, Same, B.Silva and possibly Mahrez Infront of him! 

 

We need to rule which stipulates a number of home grown players need to be in the match day squads.

 

How can players develop without playing, same with managers, when is the last time a English manager, got a top 6 job!

 

Chris Houghton, Sean Dyche and Eddie Howe have all done good jobs at lesser faniced club's, but will never get a chance at an Arsenal or a Chelsea.

Edited 5 July 2018 by coolhandfox

[davieG]

3 hours ago, Miquel The Work Geordie said:

Would these players be as good if they weren't playing alongside talented foreigners though?

 

There's definitely a case both ways. Domestic talent will never realise its potential unless it's tested, likewise you could argue the best will find a way to the top and playing alongside overseas talent helps.

 

Again, that can be countered by arguing there are a lot of dross foreigners in the Premier League that don't really contribute anything to our national game. The loan system is definitely beneficial to kids, I don't necessarily feel it's the amount of foreigners that are blocking the pathway to gametime in the Premier League but the fact that some big clubs, Spurs (maybe Liverpool, at a push) aside have absolutely gargantuan squads that need capping. 

 

How many youngsters have Chelsea hoovered up as soon as they've shown potential and how many have actually gone on to make it?

Maybe not but I don't see us developing players to eventually replace the better imports which seem to be dominated by the creative players. We still seem to focus on build, strength and speed,

 

I don't see the next Hazard, Silva etc coming though and if they are there they're not getting the chance in PL 1st teams to on develop those skills because clubs are so awash with money they're prepared fork out 10s of millions of £££s as that is seen as less risky and immediate.

 

Is there a future Mahrez in the LCFC academy at any level?

[Innovindil]

Surprised no one has brought up the Russian team yet. While they have overperformed this world cup as hosts, there was plenty of complaints in the build up that their players have become lazy since they introduced a home grown quota, they don't need to try that hard to get into teams anymore. 

 

I think we've seen enough English players have decent careers at the top level to prove that if you are good enough, you'll get the minutes. 

 

Imo, no one should get a free pass into the richest league in the world, just because of their nationality. 

[yorkie1999]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

The players aren't that great though, probably one of the most average squads we've had for years.

You don’t need great players, you need a squad that works for hard for each other, be strong enough to stay fit and luck.  

[Webbo]

Just now, yorkie1999 said:

You don’t need great players, you need a squad that works for hard for each other, be strong enough to stay fit and luck.  

I don't disagree with that.

[CosbehFox]

In the main, the article is spot on. Young players need to play at competitive levels. 

[simFox]

 

[fuchsntf]

2 hours ago, simFox said:

 

great honest opinions....Though it would be interesting if those poinst,were felt through,all the individuals in the squads...

honest where all 3 mentioned.." maybe we should of took more responsibility within the  games themselves"

 

Germans/Spanish..etc do that,it should not depend on the manager at Int.level.

[Dan]

German and Spanish clubs aren't rewarded with mega money for very little achievement. Likewise the French. They're effectively backed into giving their own a chance and they've made it work.

 

There is literally no incentive to do it in England. If anything it's the opposite. What incentive do Bournemouth have to bring through a youngster when they can sign a ready made player from Serie A, that is likely to keep Howe in a job rather than be fighting to stay up?

 

The best hope for England is more of our players go abroad. Take a leaf out of Sancho's book.

[Stadt]

6 hours ago, simFox said:

 

I think it’s too simplistic to say that’s the reason we failed at international tournaments. This tournament aside, Pique and Ramos have been of the best centreback pairings in international football history yet they hate each other. We failed at international tournaments through a mixture of more pertinent reasons like terrible managers, naivety, the players ability, type of player we’ve produced and others. 

 

[gurru991]

There is so much money at stake in the premier league that clubs are hesitant to give starts to young kids when they can play a proven commodity from another league. Rather than sign for Chelsea or Man U a youngster is way better off signing for Luton or Doncaster where he will get to play every week.

[ozleicester]

May be ive mis understood, but i think the article equally proves the system is working.

 

Young player get loaned out, if they prove to be good enough, they make their way into the tops clubs and international side.

 

Job Done!

[Finnegan]

5 hours ago, Wookie said:

I think it’s too simplistic to say that’s the reason we failed at international tournaments. This tournament aside, Pique and Ramos have been of the best centreback pairings in international football history yet they hate each other. We failed at international tournaments through a mixture of more pertinent reasons like terrible managers, naivety, the players ability, type of player we’ve produced and others. 

 

 

Think you'll find its a bit of a myth that Ramos and Pique hate each other. 

 

They absolutely love winding each other up, that's for sure, but when actually asked about it both of them have said basically "that's just Real/Barca stuff" and Diego Costa laughed it off and outed them as pretty good mates. 

 

 

[Voll Blau]

There's probably some merit in the argument, and in turn the way they've developed only works because our lower leagues are better supported than basically any others in the world, hence the infrastructure is generally better. I think the way people feel about this squad, and the way Germany and Spain have performed, puts to bed the absolute myth that B teams and winter breaks are going to have any bearing on how the national team does.

[Izzy]

12 hours ago, simFox said:

 

Fascinating insights. Thanks for sharing that mate