What's in the news?

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I thought it was Spurs' crest.

No that’s this one.

[Toddybad]

3 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

It hasn’t though, the E.U. is a restricted customs union when you think about it, and the global opportunity is much more positive and outward looking.  Allowing a level playing field for immigration rather than open borders to white Europe and hugely restricted access to talent from around the globe.

Sorry, but this is such a disingenuous argument about immigration and brexit.

[Toddybad]

2 hours ago, Countryfox said:

 

No I didn’t vote for this mess ..   not at all ...   that’s all happened since cus some people just don’t want brexit to happen.   

 

And lets just just see if they withdraw shall we.   Still looks to me like pressure being exerted to get a scenario they want. 

Yeah. The failure of brexit is down to remainers. That old chestnut. 

 

Despite having David David and Raab as brexit secretary's, Liam fox failing to get any trade deals off the ground, leavers unable to give us any unified vision of brexit. 

 

But its all because of the other side. 

 

Yep. 

Edited 25 January 2019 by Toddybad

[Toddybad]

Tell you what, let's all just agree with this and stop talking about brexit. 

 

 

 

[Strokes]

6 hours ago, Toddybad said:

Sorry, but this is such a disingenuous argument about immigration and brexit.

How so? 

[SpacedX]

9 hours ago, Countryfox said:

 

No I didn’t vote for this mess ..   not at all ...   that’s all happened since cus some people just don’t want brexit to happen.   

 

Please accept my apologies, I genuinely thought that you had. I was wrong to assume that.

 

9 hours ago, Countryfox said:

And lets just just see if they withdraw shall we.   Still looks to me like pressure being exerted to get a scenario they want. 

The increasingly strident voices coming from business are expressing concern over the prospect of a No Deal Brexit. As I said, Airbus, or any multi-national operation are by design well placed and imminently capable of branch closure or swift UK withdrawal. 

[Alf Bentley]

11 hours ago, Countryfox said:

 

No I didn’t vote for this mess ..   not at all ...   that’s all happened since cus some people just don’t want brexit to happen.   

 

And lets just just see if they withdraw shall we.   Still looks to me like pressure being exerted to get a scenario they want. 

 

Could you clarify?

1) Did you vote for Brexit?

2) Do you think we should now accept May's Deal, Rees-Mogg's "no backstop" proposal or something else?

 

@Line-X seems to assume you didn't vote for Brexit, but @Toddybad interprets you as meaning that you did, but didn't vote for the current mess, for which you blame Remainers trying to stop Brexit.

I interpreted your comment the same way as Toddy.

 

I'd say:

1) The vote was only for Leave, not for any particular form of Brexit, Hard, Soft, No Deal, Red, White & Blue....

2) There are multiple stances on Brexit, not just those in favour of some unique form of Brexit and those against it: 

- Some (both Leavers & Remainers) support May's Deal;

- Some (e.g. Rees-Mogg, Boris, DUP) oppose it as they want a Harder Brexit / no backstop;

- Some (e.g. Labour front bench) oppose it as they want a Softer Brexit/Customs Union/better protection of workers' rights etc.

- Some (e.g. Lib Dems, Soubry, Umunna) oppose it as they want a second referendum;

- Some from different groups just want the risk of No Deal excluded, and would prefer a referendum to No Deal, even if they really support May's Deal or a Soft Brexit

- Nobody that I'm aware of is seeking to cancel Brexit without a second referendum

 

As the ballot paper only said "Leave/Remain", surely all those different groups are entitled to argue for their different forms of Brexit? Though, parliament needs to decide ASAP (or seek to extend A50 if more time is needed).

 

Having voted Remain but lost, I'd now support a Soft Brexit, but would support a referendum if we continue to head for No Deal.

 

[deep blue]

8 hours ago, Toddybad said:

Tell you what, let's all just agree with this and stop talking about brexit. 

 

 

 

Remain voters didn't necessarily know any more than leave voters about the finer ramifications of exiting the EU, but they didn't need to. They were voting for something they were perfectly happy with. The difficulty with voting "leave" is that it was presented on the ballot form as a simple black-and-white vote but the choices about the actuality of leaving  (i.e. the various shades of Brexit) turned out to be far more complex.

 

This should have been better explored and explained by the government in the lead-up to the vote, and the format of the referendum should have better reflected this. Any shortcomings are not in those voting, but in the whole way in which the referendum was set up and conducted with very little forethought by the government.

[bovril]

Non Brexit news:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/25/london-pride-maker-fullers-sells-beer-business-to-asahi-for-250m?fbclid=IwAR1cpbH95-0cibRC6EdPgW9sJrczApf-ing577Ikc5xo89yM9BtRW_VrfAc

 

London Pride isn't the greatest beer ever but a well-kept pint of it is still better than most microbrewery-produced beers in London.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, deep blue said:

Remain voters didn't necessarily know any more than leave voters about the finer ramifications of exiting the EU, but they didn't need to. They were voting for something they were perfectly happy with. The difficulty with voting "leave" is that it was presented on the ballot form as a simple black-and-white vote but the choices about the actuality of leaving  (i.e. the various shades of Brexit) turned out to be far more complex.

 

This should have been better explored and explained by the government in the lead-up to the vote, and the format of the referendum should have better reflected this. Any shortcomings are not in those voting, but in the whole way in which the referendum was set up and conducted with very little forethought by the government.

It's wishful thinking I know, but voters themselves also need to take some responsibility. Anyone who did even some basic research on the cases for both leaving and remaining, rather than just relying on what they were told by both campaigns, would have realised that what's ended up happening was definitely a very real potential consequence of a vote to leave.

[Nick]

14 hours ago, Strokes said:

A button mushroom.

Light bulb with broken element?

[Alf Bentley]

13 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

Light bulb with broken element?

 

Nah! It's still a dog's arse, but with a fat tail - and @Strokes has developed enough decorum to ensure that its anus is properly covered this time.

 

Mind you, given the defined tail tip, maybe its the arse of a slightly chubby fox?

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Nah! It's still a dog's arse, but with a fat tail - and @Strokes has developed enough decorum to ensure that its anus is properly covered this time.

 

Mind you, given the defined tail tip, maybe its the arse of a slightly chubby fox?

I refute all allegations of showing decorum, any good taste was completely unintentional. 

Btw the dog pic was deleted without my knowledge 

[Carl the Llama]

33 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I refute all allegations of showing decorum, any good taste was completely unintentional. 

Btw the dog pic was deleted without my knowledge 

It's political correctness gone mad.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said:

It's political correctness gone mad.

Tell me about it, I was so upset I boycotted the forum for 2 hours. They won’t mess with me again pal.

[Countryfox]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Nah! It's still a dog's arse, but with a fat tail - and @Strokes has developed enough decorum to ensure that its anus is properly covered this time.

 

Mind you, given the defined tail tip, maybe its the arse of a slightly chubby fox?

 

Its not a dogs arse, or a foxes arse, cus you can’t see its legs ...   nope ..   my moneys on a dangling kn0b ...   

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 

Its not a dogs arse, or a foxes arse, cus you can’t see its legs ...   nope ..   my moneys on a dangling kn0b ...   

Nobody has a knob the size of an elephants head though, so you're just being silly CF.

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 

Its not a dogs arse, or a foxes arse, cus you can’t see its legs ...   nope ..   my moneys on a dangling kn0b ...   

 

Said dog/fox has burrowed a cavern into a snowdrift and tucked its legs up to keep warm. It's a bit cold out there, CF. Though you can see a bit of grass (top left) where the snow hasn't settled.

[Countryfox]

4 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Could you clarify?

1) Did you vote for Brexit?

2) Do you think we should now accept May's Deal, Rees-Mogg's "no backstop" proposal or something else?

 

@Line-X seems to assume you didn't vote for Brexit, but @Toddybad interprets you as meaning that you did, but didn't vote for the current mess, for which you blame Remainers trying to stop Brexit.

I interpreted your comment the same way as Toddy.

 

I'd say:

1) The vote was only for Leave, not for any particular form of Brexit, Hard, Soft, No Deal, Red, White & Blue....

2) There are multiple stances on Brexit, not just those in favour of some unique form of Brexit and those against it: 

- Some (both Leavers & Remainers) support May's Deal;

- Some (e.g. Rees-Mogg, Boris, DUP) oppose it as they want a Harder Brexit / no backstop;

- Some (e.g. Labour front bench) oppose it as they want a Softer Brexit/Customs Union/better protection of workers' rights etc.

- Some (e.g. Lib Dems, Soubry, Umunna) oppose it as they want a second referendum;

- Some from different groups just want the risk of No Deal excluded, and would prefer a referendum to No Deal, even if they really support May's Deal or a Soft Brexit

- Nobody that I'm aware of is seeking to cancel Brexit without a second referendum

 

As the ballot paper only said "Leave/Remain", surely all those different groups are entitled to argue for their different forms of Brexit? Though, parliament needs to decide ASAP (or seek to extend A50 if more time is needed).

 

Having voted Remain but lost, I'd now support a Soft Brexit, but would support a referendum if we continue to head for No Deal.

 

1. Yes

2. Something else.

 

Fairly obvious I prefer to leave Alf ...   deliberated at the time and thought it was best for us now and in the future...  still think the EU is going down the pan and it would be better to leave now and get a jump on the others.  Like Toddy I don’t want to post on this too much ( but it’s hard not to isn’t it Toddy ! ..  ) but occasionally get drawn in.  Toddy mentioned Airbus but I saw it differently and funnily enough spotted this heading (see below) in today’s Telegraph.  It’s also fairly obvious that we are in a right mess and the furore over removing No Deal will weaken our bargaining power ...   of course we don’t want that !! ...   but by saying it will never happen the EU negotiatiors can walk all over us.  I have spoken recently to a European friend who’s opinion I respect  ...  he is quite influential and has appeared on a European version of Dragons Den ...  reading between the lines he doesn’t want us to leave also admits it will be a massive blow for those on the other side of the channel too ...  they want us in as we are a ‘nice soft ally’ and add more than we take out (no sh1t !) ..  but if we do go then they will go all out to make us suffer to try and save the sinking ship ...   behind the scenes businesses will carry on as before ...  profit always comes first. Who knows he might be completely wrong but that’s a simplified version of his thoughts.     I hope we do get it sorted soon as it’s really costing me personally ...   but I still think if it had been handled properly it would have been a long term benefit for us.  What next ? ..  honestly, no idea ..  slow things down or temporarily stay in until we get our own political ship in order ...  advise the people what we are doing to avoid civil unrest ...  doubt if that will happen so probably we’ll settle for a big fudge soft brexit like you have mentioned and be worse off than before the vote ..  

 

 

[Countryfox]

26 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Nobody has a knob the size of an elephants head though, so you're just being silly CF.

 

22 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Said dog/fox has burrowed a cavern into a snowdrift and tucked its legs up to keep warm. It's a bit cold out there, CF. Though you can see a bit of grass (top left) where the snow hasn't settled.

 

Sorry I stand corrected...    

 

Grass indeed ! ...    

[Countryfox]

 Sorry Alf my reply above re brexit is a bit of a hurried mish mash ...   this bloody topic is just too big !!    @Alf Bentley

 

Leave it to the rest f you ...   

Edited 25 January 2019 by Countryfox

[Jon the Hat]

3 hours ago, deep blue said:

Remain voters didn't necessarily know any more than leave voters about the finer ramifications of exiting the EU, but they didn't need to. They were voting for something they were perfectly happy with. The difficulty with voting "leave" is that it was presented on the ballot form as a simple black-and-white vote but the choices about the actuality of leaving  (i.e. the various shades of Brexit) turned out to be far more complex.

 

This should have been better explored and explained by the government in the lead-up to the vote, and the format of the referendum should have better reflected this. Any shortcomings are not in those voting, but in the whole way in which the referendum was set up and conducted with very little forethought by the government.

Hold on a minute.  perfectly happy with?  I recall the whole remain spiel was "yes the EU is not perfect but we can reform it from within"  On this basis remain is also not a binary choice - what if we are not able to reform it?  What if (as has been shown since) the EU are planning on further integration and an EU Army (****ing over NATO?  Risky as hell).  This is not a steady state vs leave chaos, and it never was.

 

Honestly I think most leave voters want to leave regardless of what exactly that looks like.

[Alf Bentley]

54 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

1. Yes

2. Something else.

 

Fairly obvious I prefer to leave Alf ...   deliberated at the time and thought it was best for us now and in the future...  still think the EU is going down the pan and it would be better to leave now and get a jump on the others.  Like Toddy I don’t want to post on this too much ( but it’s hard not to isn’t it Toddy ! ..  ) but occasionally get drawn in.  Toddy mentioned Airbus but I saw it differently and funnily enough spotted this heading (see below) in today’s Telegraph.  It’s also fairly obvious that we are in a right mess and the furore over removing No Deal will weaken our bargaining power ...   of course we don’t want that !! ...   but by saying it will never happen the EU negotiatiors can walk all over us.  I have spoken recently to a European friend who’s opinion I respect  ...  he is quite influential and has appeared on a European version of Dragons Den ...  reading between the lines he doesn’t want us to leave also admits it will be a massive blow for those on the other side of the channel too ...  they want us in as we are a ‘nice soft ally’ and add more than we take out (no sh1t !) ..  but if we do go then they will go all out to make us suffer to try and save the sinking ship ...   behind the scenes businesses will carry on as before ...  profit always comes first. Who knows he might be completely wrong but that’s a simplified version of his thoughts.     I hope we do get it sorted soon as it’s really costing me personally ...   but I still think if it had been handled properly it would have been a long term benefit for us.  What next ? ..  honestly, no idea ..  slow things down or temporarily stay in until we get our own political ship in order ...  advise the people what we are doing to avoid civil unrest ...  doubt if that will happen so probably we’ll settle for a big fudge soft brexit like you have mentioned and be worse off than before the vote ..  

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 Sorry Alf my reply above re brexit is a bit of a hurried mish mash ...   this bloody topic is just too big !!    @Alf Bentley

 

Leave it to the rest f you ...   

 

No probs. Thanks for clarifying. Likewise, time I got on with other stuff (for now at least) - and these debates can get circular.

 

The Airbus doc that I linked to yesterday raising the alarm about No Deal dated from June - so not some recent scaremongering collusion with Govt. It also described in detail just how dependent the business is on frictionless trade with EU - imports for just-in-time production, parts coming and going multiple times, thousands of suppliers needing EU approval etc. Profit does indeed come first for business, but that's why their comments are credible - their profits or very viability would be hit and any downsizing or closure to protect long-term profitability would have a massive impact on people in the UK.

 

I'm sure most in the EU don't want us to leave. Brexit will also be a significant blow to the EU27. Not as massive a blow as it will be to us, because we only account for 7-12% (from memory) of EU trade, whereas we rely on the EU for 45-53% of our trade. But it's a lose-lose scenario economically (I appreciate that economic wellbeing isn't everything or the only reason for voting Leave - but it is pretty bloody important, as a lot of people may find out if they lose jobs, homes, tax revenue for public services etc).

 

I don't believe the EU will "go all out to make us suffer" - but agree they'll go all out to "save the sinking ship" (or, at least, the ship that's got a few obvious leaks). Ironically, if the EU had been in a stronger condition itself and more popular among its citizens, it would have been better able to be generous over Brexit negotiations (though the backstop would still be an issue). Bottom line, though: there's no point in any club allowing non-members a deal remotely as good as it allows members - it undermines the whole point of club membership & destroys the club.

 

A combination of those last 2 points is why No Deal is a meaningless threat: the EU know it will harm us more than them and the EU is too vulnerable as a bloc to capitulate - and throwing Ireland to the dogs would just further weaken the EU, even if it wasn't a big problem at the WTO. I think they're in a position to call our bluff, so we'll have to choose between No Deal and some sort of climbdown.

 

Yes, the negotiations could have been handled better - though probably only at the risk of splitting the Tory party and possibly collapsing the Govt long ago. For Tory politicians (as opposed to Leave voters), just as the referendum was a party management issue (resolving the Tory In/Out split), so were the negotiations - May just fudged, kicked cans, spouted meaningless rhetoric and struggled to keep both wings of her party onside for 2 years....leaving us in this last-minute mess. Like Cameron, she has sacrificed national unity and potentially the national economy/society for the sake of Tory party unity.

 

I agree that, regardless of the outcome, businesses will carry on as before putting profit first (nothing wrong with that - within reason). But, particularly with No Deal, some of them would need to relocate out of the UK sooner or later, some would become uncompetitive and go bust.....and I don't see where we're going to get the massive beneficial increase in alternative domestic investment or global exports that we'd need to replace that loss - making/doing what for whom?

 

Sorry, didn't intend to ramble on again. I'll shut up for a while now! 

Edited 25 January 2019 by Alf Bentley

[Jattdogg]

This has been in the news over here.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/torontosun.com/news/local-news/mandel-female-oncologist-loses-medical-licence-for-affair-with-cancer-patient/amp

 

I recognize the severity of the situation in that he was vulnerable and possibly it could have clouded her judgement in his care so she should have her license revoked.  Does seem he is a bit spiteful but i suppose its his right to be that way. Wish she could be my GP though.

 

If tables were turned a male doctor would probably be in jail.

[Vardinio'sCat]