The VAR thread

[Dahnsouff]

Shearer raised a fair point on Match of the Day, that when referees look at the pitch side monitor, it  must be done without slow-mo replays, in real-time, otherwise a still can tell a false impression of the flow of actions, and this would be  to allow the clear and obvious errors to emerge rather than the minutiae/single frame details.

 

Edited 3 April 2022 by Dahnsouff

[Sharpe's Fox]

VAR or no VAR the biggest problem was and remains the attitude of referees who put their own egos and little clique before everything else, including correct decisions. Referees union thinking they are infallible will always prevent the technology being used as it should; as a tool rather than a driver. 

[jmono84]

13 hours ago, RobHawk said:

West ham score with an arm and VAR hardly looks at it. Leicester score at old Trafford and we need to see every angle possible to try and rule it out. Was the same against arsenal. 

 

I thought VAR went through a few weeks where I'd got a bit of a handle on it. If it wasn't clear and obvious, they weren't looking at it. It wasn't perfect but I could live with it knowing it was a common sense approach. 

 

Against the greedy 6 though it's back to any little thing will be found to rule it out. 

 

I'm a level headed guy but it's so obvious it's scary

Exactly the point I believe. The West Ham goal where he’s almost done a volleyball smash (😜) against us was barely gets a look at but the finger nail clipping Soyuncu incident and Nacho hockey leg hook gets slowed down to show it look million times worse. Against 2 of the big 6 teams no doubt.

 

Lineker makes a great point on MOTD with refs should look at replays at normal speed, the game looks completely different when every tackle/movement gets slowed down.

 

One thing for sure is it is yet another 2 incidents which have gone against us today.

[oadby.fox]

The lack of procedural fairness and rigour with VAR is just awful. It’s relatively easy to make it a lot better but I’m beginning to lose faith that they will.

 

1.) There needs to be a set of rules which govern just how incidents are shown whenever the Ref goes over to the monitor. I can imagine that the Ref is hearing the reason why VAR might be suggesting a review but there is no way that they should be starting with a frozen frame of the point of contact (it’s a way to bias the ref and make him feel as though he’s missed something huge before seeing an actual replay of the incident). They should be playing the entire incident at normal speed, then once again a little slower and then the slow, frame by frame analysis at a close up. I don’t care if this takes 15 seconds longer - that’s better than getting the wrong decisions and is a more sensible way to review the decision made objectively.

 

2.) The “clear and obvious” rule like many have realised is too vague and not prescriptive. What is clear and obvious to you might be different from what is clear and obvious to me, because we believe different things or have different evaluative standards. The condition is essentially being used now to inconsistently favour some teams for some things but not others. A Man U player makes a dangerous tackle? It’s not “clear and obvious” enough to intervene. A clash of legs leads to a Leicester goal? Definitely “clear and obvious” enough to intervene. This is the toughest one to solve because with or without VAR, we will always be at the discretion of the referee. I think it would be wise to just get rid of the “clear and obvious” qualifier though and try and work on improving issues at the source. If the rules describing what makes a red card foul a red are themselves vague then it’s no wonder why we have issues deciding when something is a red. Subjectivity will be impossible to remove but we can do better and then just consider whether a foul has been committed in the build up to a goal etc. To try and sway any potential bias or unfairness in officiating, each team could have two/three challenges per game as well (e.g we could force the ref to review the McTominay incident on field even when Stockley Park can’t be arsed). This would probably be used as a form of game management which would be a negative but I think having the couple calls a game would be a positive overall and also make the clear and obvious condition for intervention obsolete. 
 

3.) Referees should be able to request a review themselves if they’re not sure of something. It’s ridiculous that the on field ref could be unsure of something but VAR, miles away, wrongly deems the incident not clear and obvious when the on field ref might have. Power should remain with the on field ref and a way to empower him is to give him the opportunity to review contentious incidents that he wasn’t even sure of without the prompt of VAR. People might moan that this would lead to a lot of stoppages but this would likely only be used on occasion and could improve officiating. 
 

4.) Transparency: sunlight is the best disinfectant. Let us hear the communication between the VAR and the on field ref whenever they’re discussing these issues. Broadcast them on TV and in the stadiums and let them be properly accountable. 
 

5.) I’ve always thought that it’s inappropriate that the video assistant refs are part of the same group that officiate week in week out anyway. There should be a different pool of video assistant refs who aren’t afraid to question what’s happening on field. Sometimes they all seem in it to stick up for each other and not undermine their mates so much. They should be there to get the right decisions and if there is no personal link between the VAR and on field ref then they are perhaps more likely to be objective. 
 

6.) Finally, we just need to improve the standard of refereeing in this country overall. I don’t know how to do it but it’s shocking at times considering the money at stake in the game.

Edited 3 April 2022 by oadby.fox

[jmono84]

8 hours ago, Lambert09 said:

I might be wrong in my recollection but were we not through on goal when they pulled it back for the mctiminay foul? 
 

I thought the ref must be giving a red if they are stopping it while we’ve put a player through??? Or am I wrong on that? 
 

*EDIT just watched it back. Barnes is definitely through on goal but the ref blew his whistle just as the pass was kicked… should definitely have waited to see what happened next 

Can you post a clip? I’m fuming thinking about this!

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

10 minutes ago, jmono84 said:

Exactly the point I believe. The West Ham goal where he’s almost done a volleyball smash (😜) against us was barely gets a look at but the finger nail clipping Soyuncu incident and Nacho hockey leg hook gets slowed down to show it look million times worse. Against 2 of the big 6 teams no doubt.

 

Lineker makes a great point on MOTD with refs should look at replays at normal speed, the game looks completely different when every tackle/movement gets slowed down.

 

One thing for sure is it is yet another 2 incidents which have gone against us today.

And don’t forget the 2 good goals chalked off at Brighton, only for us to have the same go against us a few weeks ago.

 

Yesterday was as much about a big club at home conceding a goal that would have probably lost them the game. Even if they don’t mean it, it if clearly unconscious bias. Used to be the case before VAR as well.
 

I actually thought overall the ref had a good game. He got the red card wrong, but it was ‘one of those’, and he would have given the goal.

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

And another thing - yesterday VAR was being interpreted like it was last season. The minor details being slowed down and studied from every angle. If you have to do that - and end up going against on field decision - it probably isn’t clear and obvious!

[Super_horns]

9 hours ago, BigGibbo said:

Becoming more and more obvious as the weeks go on that every goal against a 'big 6' club has every phase of play leading up to it frantically looked through with a fine tooth comb making a mockery of the 'clear and obvious Error' remit it was brought in with.

 

Starting to believe it's been coopted as a backdoor way to placate the big 6 and stop the European break away.

 

Particularly embarrassing for England when you consider how perfectly it was implemented in the Euros and on the continent in general.

But is it or we just don’t here about VAR much and the problems it creates ..

 

We still get odd clips about some daft decisions being made but maybe that is to be expected as no one can be perfect .

 

I guess you guys are watching European football so will know better .

 

In the Euros it definitely seemed to disrupt games less and there were less controversial incidents (although Wales fans might point to Denmark’s 2nd goal in their game when a foul should have been given ) which had a big impact on games 

 

Here VAR creates more debate than ever and even refs admit they are scared about going against each other.

Edited 3 April 2022 by Super_horns

[jammie82uk]

48 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

I just don't get why they go to the screen. Have we had a single instance in the PL whereby the ref is advised to go to the screen and he stands by his original decision? 

 

Feels like they do it as a tick box exercise to say they're looking at the footage, following the pressure from pundits to go to the screen.

 

If they're going to go with the VAR call anyway then just give it and save us all the time and theatre of going over to the screen. 

 

The grey area of clear and obvious needs removing as well. It's too open to bias and inconsistencies. 

 

Give teams a number of appeals per game (not many, 2 maybe) and leave it up to the captain to raise the claim with the ref.

 

Have the ref view the footage and make an impartial call. 

Apparently the ref yesterday is the only one to have done it before and then it was considered a controversial decision 

 

 

[jmono84]

They didn’t show the dangerous tackle on Maddison in MOTD at all did they?

[Jonezy]

Just bin the sh*t!

 

I was a huge fan to start with, as before VAR it was all about dodgy ref decisions. But it hasn't helped at all; instead the dodgy ref decisions just look even more dodgy. It ruins all the momentum and makes you question everything. It needs to go away.

[CosbehFox]

 

VAR arrived in Argentina last night, the fans had their say 

[1972 Fox]

I'm not a fan of VAR myself as the decisions seem to be just as inconsistent as the ones made naturally by referees. Correct offside decisions from VAR maybe a positive but generally I feel it's killing the game that we knew.

 

However, there will be cases when VAR will benefit your team and other times it doesn't. 

 

Without VAR we probably wouldn't have won the FA Cup last season.

[davieG]

10 hours ago, Lambert09 said:

I might be wrong in my recollection but were we not through on goal when they pulled it back for the mctiminay foul? 
 

I thought the ref must be giving a red if they are stopping it while we’ve put a player through??? Or am I wrong on that? 
 

*EDIT just watched it back. Barnes is definitely through on goal but the ref blew his whistle just as the pass was kicked… should definitely have waited to see what happened next 

Definitely I was screaming at the ref as to why he'd stopped the game when we were clear.

[He aint bald]

13 minutes ago, davieG said:

Definitely I was screaming at the ref as to why he'd sopped the game when we were clear.

i think he thought Madders was a goner

[Unabomber]

We just need goal line technology, something black and white for offsides and then VAR for missed red card incidents. Forget all this slow motion shit and freeze frames to rule out goals or try and spot a handball.  

[davieG]

4 minutes ago, He aint bald said:

i think he thought Madders was a goner

If that was the case why not a red card? 

[Super_horns]

4 minutes ago, Unabomber said:

We just need goal line technology, something black and white for offsides and then VAR for missed red card incidents. Forget all this slow motion shit and freeze frames to rule out goals or try and spot a handball.  

It’s very subjective for many decisions which is the issue and I agree refs come under pressure particularly from bigger clubs at home .

 

You can just imagine  the reaction if one of those decisions had gone against Man U for example as they potentially should have done.

 

And the slo mo reactions do give a false impression putting doubt into the minds of an official who is probably already thinking “I must have got this wrong “

[He aint bald]

Just now, davieG said:

If that was the case why not a red card? 

Death doesnt change card status. 

I think a couple of defenders were pointing like he was badly injured too

 

[Swarles Barkley]

I think the corruption and big 6 bias can clearly be highlighted in this game.
 

Unsure if its been mentioned in this thread before but why didnt the ref go to the monitor for the mctominay incident? They are saying that if the ref gave a red it would not have been overturned so why not let the ref have another look at the incident on the monitor? Makes absolutely no sense why he did for the second and not the first

[Nod.E]

1 hour ago, oadby.fox said:

The lack of procedural fairness and rigour with VAR is just awful. It’s relatively easy to make it a lot better but I’m beginning to lose faith that they will.

 

1.) There needs to be a set of rules which govern just how incidents are shown whenever the Ref goes over to the monitor. I can imagine that the Ref is hearing the reason why VAR might be suggesting a review but there is no way that they should be starting with a frozen frame of the point of contact (it’s a way to bias the ref and make him feel as though he’s missed something huge before seeing an actual replay of the incident). They should be playing the entire incident at normal speed, then once again a little slower and then the slow, frame by frame analysis at a close up. I don’t care if this takes 15 seconds longer - that’s better than getting the wrong decisions and is a more sensible way to review the decision made objectively.

 

2.) The “clear and obvious” rule like many have realised is too vague and not prescriptive. What is clear and obvious to you might be different from what is clear and obvious to me, because we believe different things or have different evaluative standards. The condition is essentially being used now to inconsistently favour some teams for some things but not others. A Man U player makes a dangerous tackle? It’s not “clear and obvious” enough to intervene. A clash of legs leads to a Leicester goal? Definitely “clear and obvious” enough to intervene. This is the toughest one to solve because with or without VAR, we will always be at the discretion of the referee. I think it would be wise to just get rid of the “clear and obvious” qualifier though and try and work on improving issues at the source. If the rules describing what makes a red card foul a red are themselves vague then it’s no wonder why we have issues deciding when something is a red. Subjectivity will be impossible to remove but we can do better and then just consider whether a foul has been committed in the build up to a goal etc. To try and sway any potential bias or unfairness in officiating, each team could have two/three challenges per game as well (e.g we could force the ref to review the McTominay incident on field even when Stockley Park can’t be arsed). This would probably be used as a form of game management which would be a negative but I think having the couple calls a game would be a positive overall and also make the clear and obvious condition for intervention obsolete. 
 

3.) Referees should be able to request a review themselves if they’re not sure of something. It’s ridiculous that the on field ref could be unsure of something but VAR, miles away, wrongly deems the incident not clear and obvious when the on field ref might have. Power should remain with the on field ref and a way to empower him is to give him the opportunity to review contentious incidents that he wasn’t even sure of without the prompt of VAR. People might moan that this would lead to a lot of stoppages but this would likely only be used on occasion and could improve officiating. 
 

4.) Transparency: sunlight is the best disinfectant. Let us hear the communication between the VAR and the on field ref whenever they’re discussing these issues. Broadcast them on TV and in the stadiums and let them be properly accountable. 
 

5.) I’ve always thought that it’s inappropriate that the video assistant refs are part of the same group that officiate week in week out anyway. There should be a different pool of video assistant refs who aren’t afraid to question what’s happening on field. Sometimes they all seem in it to stick up for each other and not undermine their mates so much. They should be there to get the right decisions and if there is no personal link between the VAR and on field ref then they are perhaps more likely to be objective. 
 

6.) Finally, we just need to improve the standard of refereeing in this country overall. I don’t know how to do it but it’s shocking at times considering the money at stake in the game.

Far too much common sense being applied here. We can't be having that.

[Fox1norfolk]

15 hours ago, FoxesWalk said:

It continues to ruin the game, but oddly seems to do so significantly more often against the greedy 6 than against other teams… funny that. 

You have to remember that MU is the most important brand the Premier League has in the £ billions it earns around the world. Therefore its vital that they are a top 4 side in the Champions League and if the Premier League can assist in this objective, then VAR is the answer.

 

Yesterday was a classic example McTominay's challenge in any other team would have been a red card, but yellow was given as it would have given MU a disadvantage.  The Foxes goal was awarded by the referee, but again VAR stepped in almost they have to find a way, any minor infringement will do so they can cancel it out. I suspect ever goal scored against MU is forensically checked to find away to cancel it. After all MU is the Premier Leagues biggest earner £billions.

Its becoming so obvious what's going on. 

[jammie82uk]

16 minutes ago, Swarles Barkley said:

I think the corruption and big 6 bias can clearly be highlighted in this game.
 

Unsure if its been mentioned in this thread before but why didnt the ref go to the monitor for the mctominay incident? They are saying that if the ref gave a red it would not have been overturned so why not let the ref have another look at the incident on the monitor? Makes absolutely no sense why he did for the second and not the first

for the first one It will be because the ref says to the VAR what he thought he seen and if it resembles what the VAR opinion is then the ref don’t get told to look at the screen 

For the second one according to the commentary who can listen to VAR the ref was told by VAR to go to the screen as a foul had been committed, so can only assumed the ref said to the VAR that he seen nothing wrong with the goal as he did originally award it 

 

 

Edited 3 April 2022 by jammie82uk

[lcfc old boy]

2 hours ago, jmono84 said:

They didn’t show the dangerous tackle on Maddison in MOTD at all did they?

which really was abysmal from the biased bbc, but if brendan says in his interview afterwards ,we had two huge var calls go against us today, they have to show it , and then could question why the ref did not allow play on if it was only deemed a booking

[justfoxes]

1 hour ago, Super_horns said:

It’s very subjective for many decisions which is the issue and I agree refs come under pressure particularly from bigger clubs at home .

 

You can just imagine  the reaction if one of those decisions had gone against Man U for example as they potentially should have done.

 

And the slo mo reactions do give a false impression putting doubt into the minds of an official who is probably already thinking “I must have got this wrong “