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[the fox]

Can people stop with this "white people" and "white history" nonsense please?

 

"White" is a race not an ideology so people should stop generalizing .

 

As for statues, I'm against any kind of it no matter if it is for a good person or a bad one. Books are enough to know history.

[nnfox]

1 hour ago, theessexfox said:

Just to reiterate what @StanSP said, when exactly did ‘BLM’ go after comedy? Might it not be a little disingenuous to equate a few dispersed calls on Twitter for shows to be removed (and a degree of pre-emption from some broadcasters given the current climate) with the entire movement for racial justice?

BLM's entire movement for racial justice is a confusing message.  The lack of clarity highlighting the exact problems make it a difficult conversation to have and allows the movement to be hijacked by statues and TV shows.

 

Do BLM want to stop police brutality against black people in the UK? If so, show examples where this has happened.  Do BLM want to go to the same schools as white children? If that doesn't happen now then show some examples? Do BLM want equal health care when being treated in hospital? If that isn't happening, give some examples.  These would all equate to signs of systemic racism that absolutely should be discussed.

 

[simFox]

10 hours ago, peach0000 said:

So many people finding so many excuses to criticise and disagree with the BLM movement which I feel is just a cover for their underlying prejudice. I wish those that are so critical would just admit that they don't think black lives matter rather than coming out with tedious and irrelevant reasons to criticise the movement just because they don't have the balls to say their true racist feelings. Cowardly. 

This is hugely offensive and sums up everything wrong with the BLM movement. My wife is black and my kids are mixed race, but I don't support BLM, so I guess I must be racist? 

 

To be honest, none of this crap going on today is helping. None of it.

 

 

[leicsmac]

Maybe this is rehashing an old point already said here, but I do think it pertinent to the discussion:

 

I do think it's unfair (and most likely inaccurate) to say that anyone who disagrees with the current methodology being displayed by BLM is a racist or uncaring about the issue at large. However, that being said, criticism without reasoned suggestions to better address the issue (and looking on here some have done that, some have not) does seem rather dismissive and uncaring, even if that is not the intent, because too often truly uncaring people have used "why do they have to do it that way?" as an excuse to delegitimise an entire cause.

 

I'd hope that most people would think this is a real problem and one that needs to be addressed urgently..but of course, in order to be effective it does have to be done in a way that is amenable to as many people as possible.

[Innovindil]

25 minutes ago, nnfox said:

BLM's entire movement for racial justice is a confusing message.  The lack of clarity highlighting the exact problems make it a difficult conversation to have and allows the movement to be hijacked by statues and TV shows.

 

Do BLM want to stop police brutality against black people in the UK? If so, show examples where this has happened.  Do BLM want to go to the same schools as white children? If that doesn't happen now then show some examples? Do BLM want equal health care when being treated in hospital? If that isn't happening, give some examples.  These would all equate to signs of systemic racism that absolutely should be discussed.

 

This. I'm all for the discussion as long as it's actually had and not just the grievances of one side. So far, the only actual concrete systemic racism example I've personally seen is regarding stop and search unfairly targeting black people. So let's have an open discussion on why it's happening and what can, or should, be done about it. Give us all the statistics regarding it and let's work through them. 

 

It's all well and good the government announcing there's going to be reviews into everything, but it needs to be an open discussion, not slapped behind closed doors. 

[worth_the_wait]

What happened to the "cancel culture" thread?

[yorkie1999]

6 minutes ago, worth_the_wait said:

What happened to the "cancel culture" thread?

Cancelled.

[David Guiza]

3 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

This. I'm all for the discussion as long as it's actually had and not just the grievances of one side. So far, the only actual concrete systemic racism example I've personally seen is regarding stop and search unfairly targeting black people. So let's have an open discussion on why it's happening and what can, or should, be done about it. Give us all the statistics regarding it and let's work through them. 

 

It's all well and good the government announcing there's going to be reviews into everything, but it needs to be an open discussion, not slapped behind closed doors. 

Black people are statistically worse off in the following situations:-

• More likely to die in police custody - 163 deaths in the past decade, 13 of which were black. Making 8% of 163, whereas black people only make up for 3% of the population. Various sources. 
• Mothers are five times more likely to die in childbirth. 
• More than three times more likely to be detained under the mental health act. 
• Half as likely to achieve good grades at school and twice as likely to be excluded. 
• Highest unemployment of any demographic. 
• Ethnic minority workers earn a total of £3.2bn less than their white colleagues https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46690212
• Five times more likely to be homeless and less likely to own their home.
• Ten times more likely to be stopped and searched.
• Over three times more likely to be arrested.
• Serve prison sentences which are 50% longer than white inmates and twice as likely to be denied bail.

The issue is that a significant number of people will see the above data and dismiss it on the basis that black people are just naturally significantly less smart, more violent etc, rather than questioning and addressing the root causes. 

[Dahnsouff]

3 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Black people are statistically worse off in the following situations:-

• More likely to die in police custody - 163 deaths in the past decade, 13 of which were black. Making 8% of 163, whereas black people only make up for 3% of the population. Various sources. 
• Mothers are five times more likely to die in childbirth. 
• More than three times more likely to be detained under the mental health act. 
• Half as likely to achieve good grades at school and twice as likely to be excluded. 
• Highest unemployment of any demographic. 
• Ethnic minority workers earn a total of £3.2bn less than their white colleagues https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46690212
• Five times more likely to be homeless and less likely to own their home.
• Ten times more likely to be stopped and searched.
• Over three times more likely to be arrested.
• Serve prison sentences which are 50% longer than white inmates and twice as likely to be denied bail.

The issue is that a significant number of people will see the above data and dismiss it on the basis that black people are just naturally significantly less smart, more violent etc, rather than questioning and addressing the root causes. 

No. It is clearly wrong to dismiss the above information, but everyone needs context and  more data as they read like headlines. The fact this stuff occurs should not be in doubt, its the why that is critical, and I fancy it some of the why's which will raise very unpleasant questions for higher ups.

[StanSP]

 

 

[Dahnsouff]

Disappointing. Expected the entire Met would get to p|ss all over him too 

[Strokes]

13 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Black people are statistically worse off in the following situations:-

• More likely to die in police custody - 163 deaths in the past decade, 13 of which were black. Making 8% of 163, whereas black people only make up for 3% of the population. Various sources. 
• Mothers are five times more likely to die in childbirth. 
• More than three times more likely to be detained under the mental health act. 
• Half as likely to achieve good grades at school and twice as likely to be excluded. 
• Highest unemployment of any demographic. 
• Ethnic minority workers earn a total of £3.2bn less than their white colleagues https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46690212
• Five times more likely to be homeless and less likely to own their home.
• Ten times more likely to be stopped and searched.
• Over three times more likely to be arrested.
• Serve prison sentences which are 50% longer than white inmates and twice as likely to be denied bail.

The issue is that a significant number of people will see the above data and dismiss it on the basis that black people are just naturally significantly less smart, more violent etc, rather than questioning and addressing the root causes. 

Is it any wonder that ethnic minorities are likely to be further down the Socioeconomic ladder, when many arrive here with little to nothing? It’d be far more beneficial to look a bit more in depth at raw figures.

[Innovindil]

16 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Black people are statistically worse off in the following situations:-

• More likely to die in police custody - 163 deaths in the past decade, 13 of which were black. Making 8% of 163, whereas black people only make up for 3% of the population. Various sources. 
• Mothers are five times more likely to die in childbirth. 
• More than three times more likely to be detained under the mental health act. 
• Half as likely to achieve good grades at school and twice as likely to be excluded. 
• Highest unemployment of any demographic. 
• Ethnic minority workers earn a total of £3.2bn less than their white colleagues https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46690212
• Five times more likely to be homeless and less likely to own their home.
• Ten times more likely to be stopped and searched.
• Over three times more likely to be arrested.
• Serve prison sentences which are 50% longer than white inmates and twice as likely to be denied bail.

The issue is that a significant number of people will see the above data and dismiss it on the basis that black people are just naturally significantly less smart, more violent etc, rather than questioning and addressing the root causes. 

Thanks. So now discuss it. I'm all open for it. Right off the bat, I'd say the first one is misleading, since surely deaths in custody should be compared to the amount of black people taken into custody, not just the percentage of the general population. 

 

2nd and 3rd ones I wasn't aware of at all. So already today I've learned something new. Would love for further talks on this since I was under the assumption that every average person had access to the same NHS treatments. 

 

For school related results that's a level of social breakdown I'd need explaining to me to understand too. Which I assume would go hand in hand with both homelessness and being more likely to be arrested. 

 

For the ethnic minorities earning less at work it needs breaking down completely, because surely if one type of ethnic minority is less effected than another, then to dismiss it as racism goes nowhere near far enough in solving the problem. 

 

As for the courts they also need shaping from the ground up, because they've undoubtedly been tilted for a long time, not just between racial disparities, but also gender disparities. Perfect opportunity to do both hand in hand for everyone's benefit. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

13 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Is it any wonder that ethnic minorities are likely to be further down the Socioeconomic ladder, when many arrive here with little to nothing? It’d be far more beneficial to look a bit more in depth at raw figures.

Yeah some of them like owning a house etc. If you've come over here recently, how are you gonna get on the property ladder? It's hard enough when you're born here and have been working for years, nevermind coming over with much less. More detail and context is required.

 

Saying that some of them do need looking into, for obvious reasons.

Edited 15 June 2020 by Leicester_Loyal

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Yeah some of them like owning a house etc. If you've come over here recently, how are you gonna get on the property ladder? It's hard enough when you're born here and have been working for years, nevermind coming over with much less. More detail and context is required.

 

Saying that some of them do need looking into, for obvious reasons.

Definitely, many new migrants from Eastern Europe live in London. It’s hard enough for wealthy folk to own a property in London. It ain’t going to happen overnight.

[nnfox]

26 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Black people are statistically worse off in the following situations:-

• More likely to die in police custody - 163 deaths in the past decade, 13 of which were black. Making 8% of 163, whereas black people only make up for 3% of the population. Various sources. 
• Mothers are five times more likely to die in childbirth. 
• More than three times more likely to be detained under the mental health act. 
• Half as likely to achieve good grades at school and twice as likely to be excluded. 
• Highest unemployment of any demographic. 
• Ethnic minority workers earn a total of £3.2bn less than their white colleagues https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46690212
• Five times more likely to be homeless and less likely to own their home.
• Ten times more likely to be stopped and searched.
• Over three times more likely to be arrested.
• Serve prison sentences which are 50% longer than white inmates and twice as likely to be denied bail.

The issue is that a significant number of people will see the above data and dismiss it on the basis that black people are just naturally significantly less smart, more violent etc, rather than questioning and addressing the root causes. 

This is a really useful starting point.  To be fair, each of the bullet points could be a thread in its own right to discuss the reasons behind those stats.  I dare say that the causes are far more complex than simply "because they're black".

 

The maths doesn't quite add up with the deaths in custody, I thought I saw somewhere that when looking at all 163 deaths it works out that once in custody, white people are about 25% more likely to die.

 

The prison sentence stats are very interesting, I'd be really interested in seeing the data for that.  On the face of it, that stat, in particular looks bad.

[Footballwipe]

27 minutes ago, StanSP said:

 

 

I see the racist apologists are out defending him under the tweet and saying it's a ridiculous sentence. Maybe the least surprising response, and shows that you really can be absolved by some people so long as you agree with their extreme ideologies.

[yorkie1999]

13 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Thanks. So now discuss it. I'm all open for it. Right off the bat, I'd say the first one is misleading, since surely deaths in custody should be compared to the amount of black people taken into custody, not just the percentage of the general population. 

 

2nd and 3rd ones I wasn't aware of at all. So already today I've learned something new. Would love for further talks on this since I was under the assumption that every average person had access to the same NHS treatments. 

 

For school related results that's a level of social breakdown I'd need explaining to me to understand too. Which I assume would go hand in hand with both homelessness and being more likely to be arrested. 

 

For the ethnic minorities earning less at work it needs breaking down completely, because surely if one type of ethnic minority is less effected than another, then to dismiss it as racism goes nowhere near far enough in solving the problem. 

 

As for the courts they also need shaping from the ground up, because they've undoubtedly been tilted for a long time, not just between racial disparities, but also gender disparities. Perfect opportunity to do both hand in hand for everyone's benefit. 

Agreed, it's a twisted stat.

[Stadt]

Between half and a third of the UK’s black population lives in London. The unequal economic situation in London is pretty awful and I’d say it’s more likely to effect minorities but isn’t that just an unfortunate reality rather than deliberate, systemic racism? It needs to be addressed obviously but I think for the some in the BLM movement the implication is that these injustices are callous and deliberate. The solution to that is to build more affordable housing. 
 

The Windrush generation arrived with little assets or wealth as you’d expect emigrating from poorer countries and there’s not the advantage of inheriting property or business from your family when you are the first of your family to live in another country. It’s made even worse by black households more likely to be single parent (although I couldn’t find any UK stats on this so it weakens this point somewhat but anecdotally this is true in my experience) and really reduces socially mobility, especially in London.

 

 

In 2016, 8% of University graduates were black (3% of total pop.) so I think the outlook is positive - there’s obviously going to be some lag time between having graduated university and having developed careers to improve the economic situation of black people in the UK

Edited 15 June 2020 by Stadt

[Innovindil]

For the second bullet point here the BBC report on the issue. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-47115305

 

An interesting read with quite a few reasons behind the stat. Apparently a follow up study is in the works and will hopefully shine more light on the issue.

[StanSP]

5 minutes ago, Footballwipe said:

I see the racist apologists are out defending him under the tweet and saying it's a ridiculous sentence. Maybe the least surprising response, and shows that you really can be absolved by some people so long as you agree with their extreme ideologies.

Maybe they're still drunk and have lots of pent up anger from the weekend. 

[David Guiza]

11 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Is it any wonder that ethnic minorities are likely to be further down the Socioeconomic ladder, when many arrive here with little to nothing? It’d be far more beneficial to look a bit more in depth at raw figures.

Certainly a contributing factor, but many of these families came over at a similar time to other demographics who have struggled far less, on the whole. Surely those whom were born in Britain and are second/third or even fourth generation migrants shouldn't be facing the same issues decades on? 

 

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

Thanks. So now discuss it. I'm all open for it. Right off the bat, I'd say the first one is misleading, since surely deaths in custody should be compared to the amount of black people taken into custody, not just the percentage of the general population. 

 

2nd and 3rd ones I wasn't aware of at all. So already today I've learned something new. Would love for further talks on this since I was under the assumption that every average person had access to the same NHS treatments. 

 

For school related results that's a level of social breakdown I'd need explaining to me to understand too. Which I assume would go hand in hand with both homelessness and being more likely to be arrested. 

 

For the ethnic minorities earning less at work it needs breaking down completely, because surely if one type of ethnic minority is less effected than another, then to dismiss it as racism goes nowhere near far enough in solving the problem. 

 

As for the courts they also need shaping from the ground up, because they've undoubtedly been tilted for a long time, not just between racial disparities, but also gender disparities. Perfect opportunity to do both hand in hand for everyone's benefit. 

I agree with your point on the first one, but it also needs to be countered against the number of arrests and sentencing too. Black people are seemingly in that situation, rightly or wrongly, far more consistently than other demographics and that then allows for other statistics to be skewed unfavorably. 

 

Recent and studies have suggested that the third one can be at least partially attributed to racial abuse and depression, anxiety and the like have risen alongside increased hate crime, so that is seemingly a factor at play. There are other factors too such as toxic masculinity being ingrained in some black culture and consequently a black man discussing his feelings is more taboo than it should be. 

 

I know next to nothing about the childbirth issue, but it's certainly an interesting and worrying statistic. I'd have to look further into it to discuss further.

 

Schools can certainly be attributed to socioeconomic issues. Growing up in poorer backgrounds and having access to poorer schools would be a significant starting point, then other factors like grooming into gangs, crime, lack of opportunities in later school life etc too in certain areas. 

 

The sentencing figure is perhaps the most startling. The legal system needs an overhaul in many areas, the demographics are starting to change but it remains full of old, rich, white and out of touch men and the access to a fair trial is not as straight forwards as it should be, ironic given today being the anniversary of the Magna Carta. I'm also still not overly keen on trial by jury because far too many people in this country have prejudices of varying degrees. There are various studies that show juries are predisposed to choose a guilty verdict also, so when you consider that a disproportionate number of black people are on trial it certainly adds up.

 

We still live in a country whereby plenty of parents would be uncomfortable or even angry if their child brought home a black partner and that prejudice would undoubtedly follow into work, even if much of it is subconscious.  

[leicsmac]

Glad this has developed into a really good discussion over the last few posts - props to Inno and DG for getting it started.

 

[peach0000]

1 hour ago, simFox said:

This is hugely offensive and sums up everything wrong with the BLM movement. My wife is black and my kids are mixed race, but I don't support BLM, so I guess I must be racist? 

 

To be honest, none of this crap going on today is helping. None of it.

 

 

Can I ask why you don’t support it? I am yet to see what I consider to be a valid reason for not. Yes there are valid criticisms of particular actions of individuals within the movement (vandalism/violence etc) and even some of the more extreme views of particular people claiming to represent the movement, but to completely say you don’t support a movement whose main aim is to stop racial prejudice and solve problems of racial inequality is questionable in my opinion. 

[Finnaldo]

46 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Black people are statistically worse off in the following situations:-

• More likely to die in police custody - 163 deaths in the past decade, 13 of which were black. Making 8% of 163, whereas black people only make up for 3% of the population. Various sources. 
• Mothers are five times more likely to die in childbirth. 
• More than three times more likely to be detained under the mental health act. 
• Half as likely to achieve good grades at school and twice as likely to be excluded. 
• Highest unemployment of any demographic. 
• Ethnic minority workers earn a total of £3.2bn less than their white colleagues https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46690212
• Five times more likely to be homeless and less likely to own their home.
• Ten times more likely to be stopped and searched.
• Over three times more likely to be arrested.
• Serve prison sentences which are 50% longer than white inmates and twice as likely to be denied bail.

The issue is that a significant number of people will see the above data and dismiss it on the basis that black people are just naturally significantly less smart, more violent etc, rather than questioning and addressing the root causes. 

And it’s those presumptions that are also part of the issue: the societal view of black communities.

 

I think an often raised point, which isn’t necessarily intentionally malicious (at least not most the time) is the idea ‘black culture’ encourages this, glorification of crime and violence in rap music, the idea they’re choosing to be in gangs or criminal enterprise instead of focusing on school, and this is compared to other minorities, notably some South Asian cultures whose parents tend to emphasise a good education for their children to achieve social mobility. 
 

For the comparison, I think it could be safely said, in comparison to Afro-Caribbean (or even White British for that matter) families, the South Asian family tends to be much more of a unit, therefore a parent is more likely to encourage their child to achieve than a majority of cultural groups in the U.K., as its seen as beneficial for the entire family. That’s an experience I took from my Ugandan-Gujarati boss and his clientele (I work in finance) and the family finance was often pooled. Whereas from what I’m aware, from White British and Afro-Caribbean families are a lot less centralised and independent. If I was conjecture, it’s less notable in White British, being the ethnic majority, but in a lot more noticeable in minority communities that are generally more deprived. If your family pools their money and relies on a team effort to succeed, you’re more likely to get the encouragement and resources to succeed. If you don’t have that encouragement, then it’s going to be a lot harder, which is where the White British ‘underclass’ and the deprivation in Afro-Caribbean communities emerge. 

There’s another interesting point to look at, which is how the ‘Black’ community is a rather broad term. In the US, newer Nigerian immigrants are on average much more affluent than African-Americans. Over here, I’ve noticed, though anecdotal, that the Somali community has a strong aversion to crime and generally see themselves as a lot more ‘patriotic’ than other Afro-Caribbean communities. From when I’ve talked to a few separate Somali cabbies, they show a lot of the strong encouragement for their children to succeed academically that is recognised in South Asian communities.

 

With all that in mind, there's two main ways that’s generally used to interpret that data:

 

1) The more conservative (small c!) approach, which is that the black community should simply integrate the more ideal aspect of South Asian and newer African immigrants to succeed.

 

2) The more progressive view that it’s government intervention is needed to give Afro-Caribbean communities a leg up they need to actually kickstart any progress. 
 

Personally, I think a lot of issues in the Afro-Caribbean community are wider societal issues that are exacerbated simply because they are more concentrated in lower socioeconomic groups, in turn making it a ‘black issue’ as it’s often termed. These are communities that didn’t have certain cultural factors (the tight-knit family unit) that South Asian families often do which made social mobility easier in a much harsher society for immigrants that was the U.K. in the 60s/70s/80s, and they don’t have the benefit newer African immigrants had in coming to a much more liberal society that’s the U.K. in the 21st century. Therefore you could argue the ‘anti-social’ elements that developed in Afro-Caribbean culture is a response to being maligned by authorities and wider society. If you don’t have the tools to succeed or be accepted in society, most people regardless of culture will turn to more illicit channels to survive. This is what the White British ‘Underclass’ and Afro-Caribbean shares in common, although by class and ethnic divide respectively.

 

I’m not qualified to give a solution to these issues, a lot of it is what I’ve come to believe having known certain individuals of South Asian, Afro-Caribbean and White British extraction. Although I suspect that less stereotyping of the Afro-Caribbean community as ‘naturally violent and anti-social’ and rather understanding as with deprivation in any community, it’s developed often out of necessity and becomes a vicious circle without meaningful change. On top of that, a lot of the social programmes and projects which were cut in deprived communities during austerity need to be reimplemented, the crime rate has steadily increased since they were scrapped, and it may well give youths of all stripes in deprivation a better chance to make something meaningful of their lives. 
 

I think the most important thing to recognise is: yes, I have ultimately pointed out these are universal issues for the deprived in our society, but as I’ve also said, it becomes an issue for the black folks in the UK as the historical precedent has ultimately shaped their position and culture in modern British society, which is why it’s important, in my mind at least, we become more open to discuss the dark side of our history and national heroes like, as an apt example, Churchill, and whilst these people deserve their positive portrayals and their statues in society, a look into their flaws, and how that affects the non-white elements of society even today, is a discussion worth having for the progression of all of us.