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Countryfox

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By Countryfox, in General Chat

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Dahnsouff

Dahnsouff

Posted
Posted

Just feel statues with links to slavery could be left in situ because

  • they usually have links to where they are erected, so provides local learning opportunities
  • But they should be updated to reflect their links to slavery and provide details why it suckS

but have said this before anyway.

 

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StanSP

StanSP

Posted
Posted
Just now, Dahnsouff said:
  • But they should be updated to reflect their links to slavery and provide details why it suckS

 

I can't see that this would go down in a productive way. 

It's basically saying you can have the statue and we'll acknowledge his slavery links, but we'll keep it up just cos of the good stuff he did too. I think adding the slavery stuff will just make it more of a target. 

 

The history is there for all to learn about. With the quality of technology and resoure available, anyone just needs to do their proper research and look at the history of someone (using proper sources!). That's why I don't want every statue brought down. Once a few go, where does the line get drawn? The Colston one was understandable, even more so when Bristolians had been campaigning for years and years to no avail. That statue coming down was probably borne out of frustration as well as the actual history of the guy. 

When it comes to Churchill or other people of his level, I can't ever remember hearing about any sustained campaigns or petitions to bring them down so how much did people really 'care' for his wrongdoings against all the good he did for the country?

 

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Dahnsouff

Dahnsouff

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, StanSP said:

I can't see that this would go down in a productive way. 

It's basically saying you can have the statue and we'll acknowledge his slavery links, but we'll keep it up just cos of the good stuff he did too. I think adding the slavery stuff will just make it more of a target. 

 

The history is there for all to learn about. With the quality of technology and resoure available, anyone just needs to do their proper research and look at the history of someone (using proper sources!). That's why I don't want every statue brought down. Once a few go, where does the line get drawn? The Colston one was understandable, even more so when Bristolians had been campaigning for years and years to no avail. That statue coming down was probably borne out of frustration as well as the actual history of the guy. 

When it comes to Churchill or other people of his level, I can't ever remember hearing about any sustained campaigns or petitions to bring them down so how much did people really 'care' for his wrongdoings against all the good he did for the country?

Should have made clear that I was not referring explicitly to Colston, but more as a wider argument.
However, perhaps I misjudged this one.  :surrender:

On Churchill, who  is largely beyond reproach, despite likely being the cause of more deaths than some, such as Colston (who deserved to have his statue down or addressed)

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fuchsntf

fuchsntf

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

His investment which was made from the slave trade.....

Many empires/civilised,including those in Africa & India were built in the back of the down trodden...That Principal stays the same.Colonisation, & slavery was Not

and is not just a debased character of 17-20 Century white Colonial Europe..!!!

It was the 2 Things that Leaves a Bad Taste and an Historical Unforgettable stink even for decent modern white folk...!!

 

# The Factory Systematic of collecting,Handling ,Transport and Distribution of 100k en mass,over 200years of peoples of Black-Africa,

sometimes Parts of India/old Persia!! Indeed a massive blotch on our white Regal governments of the time.

Where Local common indigenous whites werent treated better..in fact much of  landed-gentry history character,runs deep into Todays society...

 

# Racism in its worst form where even educated Medical scientists and insitutions and education of the then colonial-powers,

creating as fact the claptrap of deHumanising of peop!es and biological-racism.

   Where even today certain Right-leaning movements,facists or behind the curtain white  Institutional Government bodies,have in their make-up..!!!

Also an abhoral racist tribal and peoples trait,still ravaging around Africa & India ,plus Parts of Asia today...

 

The conquest ( if the right word) of racism, and discrimination, is when we can look at Buildings, staues,Read and translate documents,Books, films,tv-sketches,knowing they were Not Destroyed ,wiped,then erased from historical memory...

All civilisations/last Empires documented for eternity their life & history ,their greatness,their discoveries,their conquests,their own failings,their educated intent,their struggle with others.....

 

If demonstrators,allow the  Extremisten to destroy,and have a Voice then that reason and target is lost forever..!!!

 

Lets understand also,  The Real hardened Racist struggle in the USA,can Today Not be coupled with the Melting Pot Acceptance of European struggle no matter that both are still abhorant. I

 

Has a young white boy,I had always hoped in My naivity that the Ugly Head of racism,would come to a Natural modern civilised Natural Burn-out conclusion,believing again After travelling & Working around the World in  my innocence,that the USA despite its faults would lead the way...!!

They Made laws,but Drove it Deep into the Underground conciousnous of white Political & social lives..and it Never Left some regions or worse still Government

Insitutions interfacing within some regions Police or juristical organisations....I

 

I just Hope this "back lives matter". Can jump time ,Political realisation,and Deep cut ingrained society hurdles...

 

 

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WigstonWanderer

WigstonWanderer

Posted
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Blue-fox said:

However, he left his money to the city of Bristol and to charities and that did a lot of good for the city, does that just get ignored? And also RE Churchill etc, teach away about everything they did which was bad and good but you will still come to the conclusion that the good far outweighed the bad and therefore the statues would still stand. 

Ordinarily I’d say that historical figures should be viewed in the context of the attitudes and values of their time. However, the shear lack of empathy and humanity inherent in slavery has a more absolute feel that deserves condemnation in any context. I’m pretty sure that many people would have opposed the practice long before it was abolished.

 

Edit: Spelling

Edited by WigstonWanderer
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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
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Posted
1 hour ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Ordinarily I’d say that historical figures should be viewed in the context of the attitudes and values of their time. However, the shear lack of empathy and humanity inherent in slavery has a more absolute feel that deserves condemnation in any context. I’m pretty sure that many people would have apposed the practice long before it was abolished.

This.

 

Murder is always murder, and slavery is always slavery. If anything, it's actually taking a patronising look at the past to assume that they didn't know it was morally wrong to enslave another human being.

 

There are a few things that regardless of discussion about examining historical context transcend the time that they were carried out in - slavery and murder of innocent parties are two of them.

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The Horse's Mouth

The Horse's Mouth

Posted
Posted

The thing with the colston debate that I don't think is mentioned enough, is how many people on the side that it was rightly torn down freely consume and use products which are produced in sweat shops which is effectively a modern form of slavery? I'm not too arsed about it either way tbh, i don't think it should've been chucked in a lake though, but I think it's a bit rich to place us all on the high and mighty pedestal when these issues are still big and while we may not implement them on our shores we still finance it to continue to happen.

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Leicester_Loyal

Leicester_Loyal

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

The thing with the colston debate that I don't think is mentioned enough, is how many people on the side that it was rightly torn down freely consume and use products which are produced in sweat shops which is effectively a modern form of slavery? I'm not too arsed about it either way tbh, i don't think it should've been chucked in a lake though, but I think it's a bit rich to place us all on the high and mighty pedestal when these issues are still big and while we may not implement them on our shores we still finance it to continue to happen.

About 95% of us I bet.

 

Weren't Apple using child labourers, providing poor working conditions and paying extremely low wages in their supply chain? Yet most of us own at least one Apple product. How many queueing for Primark yesterday morning are happy to ignore their workers conditions in other countries as long as they get cheap clothes?

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
37 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

The thing with the colston debate that I don't think is mentioned enough, is how many people on the side that it was rightly torn down freely consume and use products which are produced in sweat shops which is effectively a modern form of slavery? I'm not too arsed about it either way tbh, i don't think it should've been chucked in a lake though, but I think it's a bit rich to place us all on the high and mighty pedestal when these issues are still big and while we may not implement them on our shores we still finance it to continue to happen.

 

22 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

About 95% of us I bet.

 

Weren't Apple using child labourers, providing poor working conditions and paying extremely low wages in their supply chain? Yet most of us own at least one Apple product. How many queueing for Primark yesterday morning are happy to ignore their workers conditions in other countries as long as they get cheap clothes?

This all seems a bit too "perfect solution" or "we live in a society" fallacy to me.

 

Slavery (though most often it doesn't go by that name) does still exist in many parts of the world today and it's very difficult to consume products without being a beneficiary of it somehow someplace. I don't think that invalidates passing judgement on the most likely much more widespread conditions of slavery in the past and those who perpetuated it and thinking we've come a pretty long way - and also thinking that there is still a lot of work to do.

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CosbehFox

CosbehFox

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

The thing with the colston debate that I don't think is mentioned enough, is how many people on the side that it was rightly torn down freely consume and use products which are produced in sweat shops which is effectively a modern form of slavery? I'm not too arsed about it either way tbh, i don't think it should've been chucked in a lake though, but I think it's a bit rich to place us all on the high and mighty pedestal when these issues are still big and while we may not implement them on our shores we still finance it to continue to happen.

Morally same question is presented to us with the Qatar World Cup

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53059437

 

cover2.jpg

 

Normally I'd just say tubby is having a rant again. But with the way 2020 is going, anything could happen.

 

To think it's gonna finish with a US election too... :frantics:

Yeah, general consensus over here is that this is just another episode of All Talk No Trousers, mixed with general frustration that things were actually going well up until the point the defectors decided to get involved.

 

Of course, one can never be entirely certain on these things, though.

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Benguin

Benguin

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

This.

 

Murder is always murder, and slavery is always slavery. If anything, it's actually taking a patronising look at the past to assume that they didn't know it was morally wrong to enslave another human being.

 

There are a few things that regardless of discussion about examining historical context transcend the time that they were carried out in - slavery and murder of innocent parties are two of them.

Forgive me if I'm wrong about you but I'm sure we've had theological debates before. 

 

If we are just atoms in motion, how can a standard of morality exist objectively? Surely, without a moral law giver, morality can only be an internal framework for each person and one's views on what is right or wrong is only their opinion? 

 

Of course I don't believe this personally, morality is objective, it is written on our hearts by our creator and the only way to achieve equality is through the gospel of Jesus. Just curious how this can be founded without God? 

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Dahnsouff

Dahnsouff

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Forgive me if I'm wrong about you but I'm sure we've had theological debates before. 

 

If we are just atoms in motion, how can a standard of morality exist objectively? Surely, without a moral law giver, morality can only be an internal framework for each person and one's views on what is right or wrong is only their opinion? 

 

Of course I don't believe this personally, morality is objective, it is written on our hearts by our creator and the only way to achieve equality is through the gospel of Jesus. Just curious how this can be founded without God? 

Because it benefits the species at large to have an innate moral compass

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Benguin

Benguin

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Because it benefits the species at large to have an innate moral compass

Does it? Do you have any evidence of that? What is benefit in this circumstance? Why is that a good thing? 

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Dahnsouff

Dahnsouff

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Does it? Do you have any evidence of that? What is benefit in this circumstance? Why is that a good thing? 

Maybe at large is wrong, but within societal groups it could be possible for murder and/or slavery to benefit one societal group whilst the inverse is true of the other group who are the target of said actions. 

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Innovindil

Innovindil

Posted
Posted

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53060529

 

The number of workers on UK payrolls dived more than 600,000 between March and May, official figures suggest.

 

Ouch. Just the tip of the iceberg I'd imagine. When furlough runs out there will be plenty more redundancies. Fully expecting some at my place, we're probably running just under half capacity and we're still struggling getting supplies in for that many. Chain is buggered from top to bottom. 

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FoxesDeb

FoxesDeb

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53060529

 

The number of workers on UK payrolls dived more than 600,000 between March and May, official figures suggest.

 

Ouch. Just the tip of the iceberg I'd imagine. When furlough runs out there will be plenty more redundancies. Fully expecting some at my place, we're probably running just under half capacity and we're still struggling getting supplies in for that many. Chain is buggered from top to bottom. 

Yes it will definitely rise. 5000 redundancies at my place by the end of the year have already been announced. 

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Strokes

Strokes

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

The thing with the colston debate that I don't think is mentioned enough, is how many people on the side that it was rightly torn down freely consume and use products which are produced in sweat shops which is effectively a modern form of slavery? I'm not too arsed about it either way tbh, i don't think it should've been chucked in a lake though, but I think it's a bit rich to place us all on the high and mighty pedestal when these issues are still big and while we may not implement them on our shores we still finance it to continue to happen.

Almost every mobile phone has cobalt in the batteries, which is obtained through slavery.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/05/cutting-cobalt-challenge-battery-industry-electric-cars-congo

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